Design: Civilizations

[loki1232]

Yeah, I agree that they are definitly the most undefined at this point. Lets come up with civ ideas (that don't have a ton of art requirements, aka: human) and if we can match them to the Kuriotates we will use it, or if we are better off to switch them we can do that.

I was going to have the Kuriotates get an additional benifit from improvements, particuraly cottages/villages/towns/hamlets. Making them very effiicent in well tended lands and weak to pillaging. I was also thinking about giving them centaurs as their mounted units to give them a little character. I assume centaurs wouldnt be to hard to make.

Perhaps after 30 turns of being worked all of their improvements can grow an extra step where it give +1 of its main thing. However if pillaged it is totally destroyed (except the thing above towns is pillaged down to village.)

 

[Kael]

Perhaps after 30 turns of being worked all of their improvements can grow an extra step where it give +1 of its main thing. However if pillaged it is totally destroyed (except the thing above towns is pillaged down to village.)

That could be cool. I was also thinking of giving them civics that only they could use. Which would allow us to make them diverse at a mechanic level, but we still need the "drool factor" for this civ.

The gold dragon is planned to be the hero for the Kuriotates, and the Black for the sheaim. I think we can theme out the "dragon" aspects of the culture to make the civs more cool without giving them dragon armies. But how?

 

[Corlindale]

The gold dragon is planned to be the hero for the Kuriotates, and the Black for the sheaim. I think we can theme out the "dragon" aspects of the culture to make the civs more cool without giving them dragon armies. But how?

You could have unqiue units called (Gold/Black) Dragon Cultists or Dragon Disciples, which are basically elite warriors of a dragon "cult", without being draconic themselves. Perhaps make them national units, allow them to be carried by the Dragon hero, give them some basic fire magic in addition to their combat capabilities, perhaps unique spells granted by their draconic master, which would only work as long as it was alive. Allow them to call the dragon to their current position via. a special ability, which should carry some kind of penalty to prevent abuse. Give them bonuses when near the dragon, that sort of thing.
They should be rendered near-useless if the dragon dies.

 

[Corlindale]

While thinking about the Dragon Cultists I thought of something new. But it would probably be going way too far, just something I started thinking about and looked cool in my mind:
We have 2 civilizations with very powerful dragons(I assume they will be). As I imagine beings as powerful as dragons can inspire to fear, respect and even possible worship, how about adding two new full-fledged religions to the game right there? The Cult of the Black Dragon, and the Cult of the Gold Dragon(or other names). These religions can ONLY be founded by the Kuriotates/Sheaim, but can spread to other civs in the normal way. This would give the two civs a pretty major advantage, as they'd be guaranteed an oppertunity to found a religion, but the religions themselves could be made weaker than the standard ones to compensate for this.

The religions would have temples, priests and such, just like the others, but they would also work quite differently in some respects. For example, if you choose to employ either dragon in war, it will have great bonuses attacking cities which worship it. By being present in a city with the religion, the dragon might provide an effect similar to that of the Globe Theatre of vanilla, or some other bonus.
Finally, the ultimate catch of these religions: If the dragon dies, the religion dies with it, along with all holy buildings and priests. This would make it a dangerous religion to rely on, especially for players not controlling the dragon in question.

This might all be crazy, I just fell in love with the idea of dragon-worshipping civs.

 

[Kael]

While thinking about the Dragon Cultists I thought of something new. But it would probably be going way too far, just something I started thinking about and looked cool in my mind:
We have 2 civilizations with very powerful dragons(I assume they will be). As I imagine beings as powerful as dragons can inspire to fear, respect and even possible worship, how about adding two new full-fledged religions to the game right there? The Cult of the Black Dragon, and the Cult of the Gold Dragon(or other names). These religions can ONLY be founded by the Kuriotates/Sheaim, but can spread to other civs in the normal way. This would give the two civs a pretty major advantage, as they'd be guaranteed an oppertunity to found a religion, but the religions themselves could be made weaker than the standard ones to compensate for this.

The religions would have temples, priests and such, just like the others, but they would also work quite differently in some respects. For example, if you choose to employ either dragon in war, it will have great bonuses attacking cities which worship it. By being present in a city with the religion, the dragon might provide an effect similar to that of the Globe Theatre of vanilla, or some other bonus.
Finally, the ultimate catch of these religions: If the dragon dies, the religion dies with it, along with all holy buildings and priests. This would make it a dangerous religion to rely on, especially for players not controlling the dragon in question.

This might all be crazy, I just fell in love with the idea of dragon-worshipping civs.

I think its an amazing idea. Im going to have to noodle on it and we can toss it around to firm out the concept. I few issues we would have to address.

First a few points about dragons:

1. We are planning to have 3, the Sheaim black dragon, the Kuriotate gold dragon and a barbarian red dragon that is immobile (basically the guard for the dragons lair, maybe tied to some quests later on).

2. Dragons will be unique and extremly powerful. Avatar level units and the best civ heroes in the game.

3. Dragons will have the fear ability (cannot be attacked by units under a certain strength).

4. Dragons will have a breath weapon attack that will do signifcant damage without putting them in combat.

5. Each dragon will have its own special ability (as of yet undertimed).

6. Dragons should be multi-domain (essentially air units without being air units in game terms).

7. We need some more cool dragon features besides these. Maybe a relationship boost with all civs as long as you keep the dragon?

Now on to the issues we would have to address with this concept:

1. Because of their power the dragons would be late game units, meaning the religions wount get started until they were to late to do much.

2. Should it be one religion or two?

3. What should it take to build them? Should the dragon be "projects" requiring the civ to complete essentially 3 wonders before it can build the dragon?

At the very least Im going to check in a "Cult of the Dragon" concept into the quests for "Shadow". We can definitly keep working on the idea here, but even if we decide not to do anything with it in light I defeinitly want this in as a series of quests later on.

 

[Corlindale]

1. Because of their power the dragons would be late game units, meaning the religions wount get started until they were to late to do much.

2. Should it be one religion or two?

3. What should it take to build them? Should the dragon be "projects" requiring the civ to complete essentially 3 wonders before it can build the dragon?

1+3. Perhaps we could add a "growth cycle" for the dragons. When you can first build them, towards the mid-game perhaps, they'll be wyrmlings who has not reached their full potential in power yet(but still powerful enough that you can found the religion upon building them). The projects mentioned could be used as ways of making the dragon grow, until they eventually become extremely powerful in the late game.

2. I think it should be two different religions for the Sheaim and the Kuriotates. And their followers should be sworn enemies, just like the relationship between the Veil and the Order.

 

[loki1232]

Wow I go to school for a day and look at what you guys come up with.

1+3. Perhaps we could add a "growth cycle" for the dragons. When you can first build them, towards the mid-game perhaps, they'll be wyrmlings who has not reached their full potential in power yet(but still powerful enough that you can found the religion upon building them). The projects mentioned could be used as ways of making the dragon grow, until they eventually become extremely powerful in the late game.

2. I think it should be two different religions for the Sheaim and the Kuriotates. And their followers should be sworn enemies, just like the relationship between the Veil and the Order.

1+3. What if the dragon grow as its religion grew? It could start in the midgame with the other religions. The dragon would be very very weak, but each time it spread to a new city the dragon would get +1 strength. Each time a civ converted to it it would get +1 strength (one time bonus per civ). When the hly city's shrine was built the dragon would get +1 strength. Each of these bonuses would be permanent, so by the end game a kuriotates player who had expanded their religion would have the bonus of an uber dragon. I relly like this idea. I'll even start posting on the religions thread some stuff about them.

2. Yeap. Neither religion changes civ alignment, but they get the -4 hit against civs of the opposing religion.

 

[loki1232]

I think its an amazing idea. Im going to have to noodle on it and we can toss it around to firm out the concept. I few issues we would have to address.

First a few points about dragons:

1. We are planning to have 3, the Sheaim black dragon, the Kuriotate gold dragon and a barbarian red dragon that is immobile (basically the guard for the dragons lair, maybe tied to some quests later on).

2. Dragons will be unique and extremly powerful. Avatar level units and the best civ heroes in the game.

3. Dragons will have the fear ability (cannot be attacked by units under a certain strength).

4. Dragons will have a breath weapon attack that will do signifcant damage without putting them in combat.

5. Each dragon will have its own special ability (as of yet undertimed).

6. Dragons should be multi-domain (essentially air units without being air units in game terms).

7. We need some more cool dragon features besides these. Maybe a relationship boost with all civs as long as you keep the dragon?

1. I think that the red dragon might not be immobile. What if you could sneak by and get the treasure, but then he'd go on a rampage?

2. Well of course. They're dragons.

3. What about sumoned creature?

4. That seems kinda lame, but maybe if we can get a really nice anim for it.

5. Even the red guy?

6. Yeah.

7. hmmm. This will be at the top of my list...
What if they were their own type? Also could use 50 gold to build a unique improvement called a hoard in hills/mountains. Not sure what they would do yet though...

 

[Chalid]

Hmm thought some more about the calabim. I'd like the bloodpet to be produced by food, too (didn't i propose that in the past, im not sure) and how about reducing the produced commerce on calabim villages and towns, but giving additional food instead. Furthermore i would want the calabim to be always able to rush production with popoulation (whip) as the calabim see their population only as food and means to live in prosperty...

 

[loki1232]

What if instead of the bloodpet being produced for food they could sac population for it. Then once they get a manshion they can sac pop for anything.

 

[Chalid]

Hmm yeap that absolutely to my liking... Pop is power.. at least for the calabim

 

[Corlindale]

It occurs to me that there might be a curious but effective combo involved in adapting the leaves as a state religion with the Calabim. The large cities this allow would be of great benefit.
I don't think it's a bad thing, it's nice that the game can allow for alternative and unconventional strategies that are still feasible.

 

[Chalid]

Just a thought as i wrote about alignment. How about randomizing Perpentachs leaderhead info (and alignment) on gamestart, on reload and randomly during the game? That would make him really uncalculatable and give interesting turns to a game when he suddenly changes his behaiviour by 180 degrees.

We could even go so far as to randomize his traits (i think they are saved in the Player class) to a certain degree (so that he always has either creative or philosophical but seldom both at the same time).

 

[woodelf]

Hehe, that would make him even better!

 

[Kael]

Just a thought as i wrote about alignment. How about randomizing Perpentachs leaderhead info (and alignment) on gamestart, on reload and randomly during the game? That would make him really uncalculatable and give interesting turns to a game when he suddenly changes his behaiviour by 180 degrees.

We could even go so far as to randomize his traits (i think they are saved in the Player class) to a certain degree (so that he always has either creative or philosophical but seldom both at the same time).

I think we can accomplish a similiar result by making him more prone to everything in the leaderhead info, quick to war, quick to peace, like a pitbull with attention defecit.

Swapping his alignment will cause confusion for players when they dont match his religion or their Law Braingers are able to attack his troops before a save but not afterwards, etc.

Randomizing his personality will make him sometimes play like the elohim or the bannor, and I think I would rather have him predictably chaotic than truely unpredictable (and sometimes very stable).

Moving his traits around may be an interesting trait to play with, lets think about that one.

Rather than swapping alignment we could just add an attitude adjustment tied to a random variable for him. So on each diplomacy interaction you get a random -4 to 4 adjustment for no reason (well the reason would be something like "You entertain me" or "you fail to entertain me").

 

[talchas]

Make sure then that you get the same random modifier throughout at least the turn, otherwise players will/may just keep trying until they get the best modifier.

 

[Kael]

Make sure then that you get the same random modifier throughout at least the turn, otherwise players will/may just keep trying until they get the best modifier.

True, good point.

 

[Chalid]

How about teh following randomize it every turn, but when you visit him a second time in the turn you always get a negative -4 indicator..
Like "You again? Your face bores me"

 

[Corlindale]

Could it be made so that the modifier changed on turn intervals which are also random? So you'd never know how long Perpentach's "good mood" would last.

 

[loki1232]

Could it be made so that the modifier changed on turn intervals which are also random? So you'd never know how long Perpentach's "good mood" would last.

Yeah and if he's winning a war then it lasts longer?