Design Thread - For Discussion and Review

[Natan35]

What you mean "copy with extra flaws"?

 

[DonStamos]

Lifted from the Request Thread:

Here's one I've been working on for a bit.

Aurangzeb - The Mughals
Agra (not sure what his backup capital should be atm)
UA: World-Seizer
Inquisitors and Great Prophets may be used to remove rival religions from your cities up to three times. Whenever a city following an enemy religion is conquered or a city is converted to your religion, gain a sum of Golden Age points.
UU: Multi-barreled Cannon or Sowar
The multi-barreled cannon would be more expensive than regular Cannon, but once placed, may attack more than once per turn. The cannons themselves were developed by Fathullah Shirazi for Akbar, but I figured this could be another way to highlight Mughal artillery prowess (though I'm not sure just how much the multi-barreled cannons were used).
-or-
The Sowar would be a Dragoon(?) replacement. Would get a combat bonus against cities of rival religions. Really, I haven't come up with anything exciting for this, but it's a bit more justifiable as a UU.
UB: Karkanah
Replaces the Artist's Guild. Contains a slot for Great Works of Art. During Golden Ages, Great Artist production is boosted by 50%.
Under Aurangzeb, these buildings (described by Francois Bernier) made valuable textiles. I kind of mashed it together with his love for calligraphy to work with the UA a little better.

Genuinely interested in how this could be made better. I figured Aurangzeb (and his zealotry) were perfect to make a "one world religion" warmonger Civ

I took another look at Aurangzeb and here's what I came up with:

Aurangzeb
Agra
UA: World-Seizer
Whenever a city following an enemy religion is conquered or converted to your religion, gain Golden Age points. Conquered cities suffer no resistance and increase Unhappiness by 33% less if they follow your religion.
UU: Multi-barreled Cannon
More expensive than the Cannon it replaces c5production: 225), the Multi-barreled Cannon begins with the Logistics promotion, allowing it to attack more than once per turn, and is weaker vs. cities (17 vs 20).
UA: Karkanah
Replaces the Artists' Guild (more expensive, but not sure by how much yet). Contains a slot for Great Works of Art. Grants +1 Faith if the Great Work slot is filled. During Golden Ages, Great Artist generation in this city is increased by 50%.

His UA and UB are a little busier, but I think the design works somewhat better now.

For the UA, I added the no resistance/less unhappiness bit to help emphasize spreading your religion during times of peace. Which gets you more GA points from Part 1 of the UA. I dropped the inquisitors/Great Prophets bit, because while I felt it kinda fit thematically, the same thing could be done more simply by allowing the player to get more Faith instead (I also had conquered cities giving faith equal to combat strength, but dropped that too because I felt it made things too busy).

For the UU, I went with the multi-barrel cannon. Having siege units that start with Logistics is pretty good (I think - if not, can buff more). Making it slightly weaker against cities fits because each barrel would fire a smaller shell, doing less damage each - and also tries to keep them from shredding cities too fast with their ability to fire multiple times.

For the UB, I looked back to the UA. It wants Faith. Though the calligraphy Aurangzeb patronized is a stretch as far as Works of Art, in Islamic traditions, they're much the same as paintings or statues of Jesus in a Christian church. Having the building make only Mughal calligraphy is a bit narrow, but I thought having the Faith apply to any Work in its slot was good enough. More Artist generation for GAs helps fill these slots. I considered having the Faith bonus apply to all filled Great Art slots in that city, but I'm not sure if that's too strong.

Altogether, I would think the early game would focus on getting a religion and spreading it, before warmongering later on. Or in waves. Whatever floats your boat, really. The secondary focus on Great Artists gives Aurangzeb an outside shot at a Tourism win that usual warmongers may not have, too (opulence of the Mughals!). The increased UU/UB costs (not too much over the originals, I hope), also reflect the rising inefficiency of the later Mugal empire to a degree. I'm really happy with what I've got above, and wonder what some of you fine civ-makers think on a few questions:

1.) Is Logistics + slight debuff vs cities balanced and useful enough for the UU?
2.) How much more than the Artists' Guild should the UB cost (Guild costs 150)?
3.) Should the Faith bonus on the UB apply only to its Art slot or all art slots in the city?

=========================

I reposted this here because I want to take a stab at actually doing this Civ after I get back from a trip on the 3rd. I want it to focus on religious warfare and culture, two things Aurangzeb prized.

I'm considering changing the UB to exert more religious pressure for each filled Art slot rather than giving Faith, for more synergy with the UA, but not quite sure.

 

[Tarmont]

I reposted this here because I want to take a stab at actually doing this Civ after I get back from a trip on the 3rd. I want it to focus on religious warfare and culture, two things Aurangzeb prized.

Publicizing this here just so that it does not come out of nowhere later on because it would be super awkward to surprise-release a civ about a very specific period on a civilization history that another person has already developed a mod set on the same period and, on top of it all, said civilization was already added to the game by another group of modders but with a different focus (Thus ending up with three mods about the same civilization and two set on the same period of said civilization's history); Regalman requested me to do an Aurangzeb focused Mughal civ (Codename dubbed: Mughal Hitler), so we might end up with two Aurangzebs.

Of course, I don't mind when two people make the same civilization (As I have expressed before), but I think it would be kinda rude to not even let you know.

 

[Hoop Thrower]

Aurangzeb, hm? The little I've read about him does indeed say that he appreciated a lot the use of Cannons, so I'd say the UU makes sense.

The Multibarreled cannon however suffers from being kinda similar to the Korean Hwacha and the Genoan Rabauld, what about the Portable Cannon instead?

Highly mobile artillery is always welcome, and the very idea of this thing looks genius, so certainly it'd be something to consider.

Personally I'd like to see something more, dunno, aggresive? In the UA. Gaining Golden Age points from removing religion feels kinda meh-ish, what if instead you got a bonus as long as all your cities were following the same religion?

 

[DonStamos]

Publicizing this here just so that it does not come out of nowhere later on because it would be super awkward to surprise-release a civ about a very specific period on a civilization history that another person has already developed a mod set on the same period and, on top of it all, said civilization was already added to the game by another group of modders but with a different focus (Thus ending up with three mods about the same civilization and two set on the same period of said civilization's history); Regalman requested me to do an Aurangzeb focused Mughal civ (Codename dubbed: Mughal Hitler), so we might end up with two Aurangzebs.

Of course, I don't mind when two people make the same civilization (As I have expressed before), but I think it would be kinda rude to not even let you know.

No worries. I wasn't sure if there was an Aurangzeb in progress or not. I knew there was More Civs' Akbar and LS' Shah Jahan, and figured I'd try my hand at it. Entirely intrigued by "Mughal Hitler," so I think I'll just defer to you

 

[Tarmont]

No worries. I wasn't sure if there was an Aurangzeb in progress or not. I knew there was More Civs' Akbar and LS' Shah Jahan, and figured I'd try my hand at it. Entirely intrigued by "Mughal Hitler," so I think I'll just defer to you

I think you should continue with your plans for this civ (I really liked that UA!); my Aurangzeb is pretty (Emphasis on that) far off, but since it will one day eventually come I thought it would be disrespectful to not let you know about its existence beforehand.

About your design: As I've mentioned, I think that UA is perfect (Although I honestly wouldn't know how to code the latter part), the UU is simple but works, and synergizes well, and while the UB synergizes as well, I think that to justify an unique National Wonder it should be REALLY different from the original building.

 

[DonStamos]

I thought all cities could build Artist Guilds? I wouldn't have picked that one otherwise, lol.

If I go ahead with it, I'll take Hoop Thrower's suggestions to heart. Especially getting GA points as long as all of his cities are the same religion and running with the Portable Cannon. Maybe an extra movement point and a chance to retreat from combat would be a good base to start from there.

I entertained the idea of Aurangzeb always being at war against Civs that don't follow his religion (once he picks one), but thought that might get pretty irritating if the rest of the world doesn't follow it and it would rack up warmonger penalties pretty quick.

 

[GPuzzle]

Eh, a good way to get the UNW to be better is to make it buildable everywhere much like a normal building. That'd be pretty good.

 

[Urdnot_Scott]

I agree with Tarcisio that the UA is excellent. Definitely a huge improvement on the old one and very fitting for old 'Zebby. The UU is pretty interesting but I agree with hoop that it does kind of step on the toes of some other UUs with similar focuses like the Ribauld. Also the UU is a tad odd because it gets a malus vs cities compared to the regular cannon, which seems strange given the UA is all about wrecking cities -surely just a straight damage decrease would work best, or a debuff vs units? That said, if its just a CS decrease, it is a tad similar to the Chu-Ko-Nu except for being a different unit class, which might be an issue?

The UNW is the only thing I'm not sold on, simply because I don't like UNWs. They don't really make the civ interesting at all since you build it once and thats it, which defeats the point of having a UB - its essentially just tacking on a bit of extra stuff to the UA except it only activates after investing a bit of production. The golden age focus is nice though!

If the UNW were changed to a sowar or some kind of UB I'd definitely call this a fantastic design. Good work.

 

[Firebug]

UA: World-Seizer
Inquisitors and Great Prophets may be used to remove rival religions from your cities up to three times. Whenever a city following an enemy religion is conquered or a city is converted to your religion, gain a sum of Golden Age points.

I love the idea, but from what i remember from trying to code in a unit that can do both Spread Religion and Remove Heresy (that's what you want the Great Prophet to do), is that it conflicts and causes neither to be an option when in-game. (I wanted Almohad Great Generals to do both, but i had to stick with just one.)
I'm sure someone much better then me could work it out. Just wanted to put my 2 cents in is all.

 

[DonStamos]

Yup, somehow I missed the memo on the Artists' Guild being a National Wonder.

Maybe have it replace the Garden instead, not require Fresh Water, keep the Great Work of Art slot and faith, but drop the GPP bonus to the regular 25% and have it either be more expensive or cost more maintenance (I prefer the latter).

Given how complicated that sounds, I'm seriously considering just letting it be buildable in all cities as is.

@ Firebug: I didn't know it had to be one or the other. I dropped it from the original design (the one I had quoted in my first post), opting instead to have a UB that generates extra Faith (and more Artists to get more Faith) to help pay for missionaries/inquisitors instead because I wanted to make the UA less busy. Thanks for the info, though, I might have tried something like that again in the future only to hit the same wall!

 

[Urdnot_Scott]

I don't think you'd need to remove the water prerequisite. I mean the heartlands of the Mughals, and the only place they really had any luck with conversion, were the Indo-Gangetic plains, straddling two of the most important rivers in Asia. That would definitely simplify things a bit. Having it buildable in all cities as an artists guild seems OP - there's a reason its a NW ingame, if you could build it in all cities you'd just catapult your tourism output in every game and make every other civ look like an uncultured backwater with the power of your art.

In terms of other civs to discuss, I tried to make the Songhai my triumphant return to splits-ville and didn't get much feedback, much to my chagrin. Since half the reason I suggested this thread was to be a new place to host my splits, here it is again. Not sure which to split next, any thoughts?

Songhai Split​

Empire of Ghana

Spoiler :

Empire of Ghana​

Leader: Kaya Magan Cissé
UA: Soninke Traditions
International trade routes to and from the Capital generate an additional +2 gold and +2 faith for every city following your pantheon belief in the empire. May purchase gold buildings and caravans with faith in cities following your pantheon.

UB: Mande Warrior (Replaces Warrior)
The Mande Warrior, unlike the warrior it replaces, generates triple gold from barbarian encampments and generates +1 faith in the capital for every adjacent barbarian unit.

UU: Camel Pen (Replaces Caravansary)
The Camel Pen, unlike the Caravansary it replaces, generates an additional +1 gold on ivory, gold and salt resources. For every desert tile worked in a city with a Camel Pen, receive +5% trade route range up to a maximum of +50%.

Empire of Mali

Spoiler :

Mali Empire​

Leader: Mansa Musa
UA: Kings of Gold and Salt
Whenever you construct a mine anywhere in the empire, receive Great Merchant points and Faith equal to the number of worked mines anywhere else in the empire. Whenever a Great Merchant is born, mines in the capital yield +3 gold and +2 faith for ten turns.

UU: Treasure Caravan (Replaces Great Merchant)
The Treasure Caravan, unlike the Great Merchant it replaces, is slightly faster at +3 movement and generates 10 gold whenever it ends its turn on a caravan, doubled on desert tiles. When outside friendly territory, the amount of gold generated increases by +1 for every two tiles the Treasure Caravan is from the Capital. Furthermore, the Treasure Caravan may conduct trade missions inside the territory of another civilisation, rather than city states, which grant double gold and a significant amount of Great Merchant points in the Capital.

UB: Mandekalu Cavalry (Replaces Knight)
The Mandekalu Cavalry is slightly weaker than the knight it replaces, but receives the unique promotion 'River Warlord' which allow it to cross rivers without incurring the extra movement point cost and granting a +50% attack bonus when attacking over a river.

Empire of the Songhai

Spoiler :

Songhai Kingdom​

Leader: Muhammad Askia
UA: Timbuktu and Back Again
International trade routes to the Capital yield +1 culture for every monument in the empire, +1 faith for every temple, and +1 science for every library. International trade routes to Songhai cities yield an additional +1 gold for the route owner and the recipient for every city connected to the Capital.

UU: Mud Pyramid Mosque (Replaces Temple)
The Mud Pyramid Mosque, unlike the temple it replaces, requires no upkeep cost and is much cheaper to build. Furthermore, the mud pyramid mosque yields +1 culture for every 3 followers of your religion in this city.

UB: Cattle Line (Replaces longswordman)
The Cattle Line is significantly weaker than the longswordman it replaces on attack, at only 11 combat strength but is much cheaper to build. However, whenever the cattle line attacks an enemy unit, it has a chance to force that enemy to retreat. Furthermore, enemy units adjacent to a cattle line receive -25% defensive strength and may not receive terrain defensive bonuses.

 

[DonStamos]

That's a good point.

I really REALLY like that Mansa Musa. (As well as your Arabia, Ottoman, Egypt and Byzantine splits - I definitely want to see the Byzantine one made sometime).

The Treasure Caravan just oozes flavor. Am I correct in guessing that Askia's current UA isn't really reflective of Songhai? I ask because yours is more peaceful than his is, and I like how you can tinker with your trade yields by investing in certain building types.

As for which to split next - how about Korea? Would love to see what you do with Silla, Goryeo, et al. Indonesia would be another interesting one.

 

[Hoop Thrower]

Mansa Musa is actually the one that worries me the most, doesn't that Treasure Caravan ability simply allow you to snowball into getting more and more of themselves each time?

That coupled with the huge amount of Gold you gain each time could potentially mean a pretty gamebreaking feature.

 

[DonStamos]

I guess that would depend on how many Merchant points the Capital is getting. If it's something like +100, then my guess would be there could be a bunch early, but eventually the threshold would get too high to keep snowballing.

 

[GPuzzle]

Review time? Review time.

Ghana: Lots of good, fun ideas here. However, it feels a bit underpowered. Namely, it has a Faith and Gold focus but is lagging behind on Faith which is important for Gold generation. Maybe starting with an additional trade route would be helpful, or always knowing where Barbarian encampments are.

The UA has that slight problem where it's lacking on early faith, but alright.

UU seems incredibly fun, I'll be honest. Maybe a bonus while adjacent to Barbarians?

UB is pretty good, I enjoy it. Also, increasing Trade Route distance based on Desert tiles worked is very interesting.

Mali: I like the cycle of Treasure Caravans and the UA. Just so fun. The Mandekalu Cavalry seems very interesting to play, allowing for some of the fastest rushes in the game. Sorry, don't have much to complain about this one, it's pretty great all in all. Flavor, technique, how possible it is to code...

Songhai: Askia is surpringsly great. First of all, I love how powerful the UA is, based on trade routes. The Cattle Line doesn't really interest me and the Mud Pyramid Mosque is pretty good without being OP.

 

[Firebug]

Kievan Rus is going to be an upcoming civ of mine, but i'm still working on the ideas. Its based around an early Slavic Kievan Rus, at about the time of Oleg.

Kievan Rus​

Leader: Oleg
UA: Slavic Waterways - Cargo Ships can travel rivers and rivers count as roads for City Connections. Each forest adjacent to a city increases its Naval Production by 5%.

UU: Druzhina (Swordsman) - Higher Defense and has the Amphibious promotion.

UU: Lodya (Trireme) - Can enter rivers. Units embarked on the same tile as a Lodya gain +50% defense.

any feedback would be great, or anyone can come up with a better idea - i'd probably use that.

 

[Hoop Thrower]

I know it's normally not well seen to point out someone else is working on the same civ, but... your concept is pretty damn similar to Tomatekh's Kievan Rus.

 

[Uighur_Caesar]

I really like how you're using rivers in your design. The trireme replacement sounds pretty original since I can't think of another mod where a ship can navigate rivers. I feel that the second half of the UA is kind of weak. I would extend it to all forests worked on by a city.

 

[GPuzzle]

Seems very interesting (although I'd add a little more things involving Forests personally). However, is that ships sailing through rivers actually codable?