Designing America for Civ7

[Boris Gudenuf]

I actually served on board the USS Tripoli. This was a Carrier for Transport helicopters. The Sea Knight was instrumental in amphibious operations. This would be a great unit that goes hand in hand with The Marines Units. And I think this Civilization series should feature amphibious sea craft once again. In ancient times the Phoenicians used this to establish trade colonies. One particular colony in North Africa became Carthage. Civ III had sea vessels capable of embarking units. We need to return to full sea activity.

Right now, there are about 60 "aircraft carriers" in the world, and about 3/4 of them are VTOL or Helicopter Carriers: they are a very common way of projecting sea or amphibious power.

I think as a minimum the game needs the specialized amphibious warfare/landing ships represented, because a lot of industrial effort went into manufacturing those in the 20th century, and it's utterly missing from Civ VI now. If we needed a special characteristics for a US Marines UU for America, that could be it: that a Marine Unit gets an automatic Amphibious Warfare Transport to represent the various specialized amphibious vehicles that the Marine Corps uses.

 

[jsciv69]

Right now, there are about 60 "aircraft carriers" in the world, and about 3/4 of them are VTOL or Helicopter Carriers: they are a very common way of projecting sea or amphibious power.

I think as a minimum the game needs the specialized amphibious warfare/landing ships represented, because a lot of industrial effort went into manufacturing those in the 20th century, and it's utterly missing from Civ VI now. If we needed a special characteristics for a US Marines UU for America, that could be it: that a Marine Unit gets an automatic Amphibious Warfare Transport to represent the various specialized amphibious vehicles that the Marine Cops uses.

With Eisenhower leading America. Maybe that brings the classic D-Day landing ships to the game. Such as he commanded during WWII. Ike, being an Army General, would be ideal in military recruitment being a function somehow. That recruitment gets a major bonus with Douglas MacArthur being used as a Great General. I really loved using the Sea Transports in Civ III. Maybe we can have a VT(Vehicle Transport) ship. One that carries Tanks and Personnel Carriers.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

With Eisenhower leading America. Maybe that brings the classic D-Day landing ships to the game. Such as he commanded during WWII. Ike, being an Army General, would be ideal in military recruitment being a function somehow. That recruitment gets a major bonus with Douglas MacArthur being used as a Great General. I really loved using the Sea Transports in Civ III. Maybe we can have a VT(Vehicle Transport) ship. One that carries Tanks and Personnel Carriers.

The iconic WWII-era specialized amphibious landing and ocean-going ship was the LST, or Landing Ship, Tank, which, since it was designed and built and largely used entirely by the US (we loaned a bunch to the British) would be a perfect UU for America.
OR if we want to make the amphibious capability part of a US Marine UU, the Higgins Boat or LCI (Landing Craft, Infantry) would be a good graphic for any Marine Unit while embarked.

 

[Sirsquier]

Honestly more than anything, I just want America to be powerful... like it was and is irl. I feel like since America is always one of the first civs added it's always really weakish.

 

[Zaarin]

Honestly more than anything, I just want America to be powerful... like it was and is irl. I feel like since America is always one of the first civs added it's always really weakish.

Civ6 America is pretty decent, not top tier but certainly not weak. Its uniques are worthless, but their abilities have always been solid and only grown more so over time. Since Wildcard slots are always the best and early Diplomatic cards are weak, Diplo > Wildcard is just a fantastic ability, and Teddy's original ability of +5 CS on his own continent is always handy--but honestly Bull Moose Teddy has one of my favorite abilities in the game with his "unimproved tile" game (that synergizes just beautifully once you get National Parks). Civ5 America was pretty worthless, though.

 

[jsciv69]

Honestly more than anything, I just want America to be powerful... like it was and is irl. I feel like since America is always one of the first civs added it's always really weakish.

I second that motion. That's why I would choose a Cold War Era leader. Eisenhower represents a time when American prosperity, Military Power, And standing around the World was pretty high. I know some would like JFK. But his tenure was cut short to put it lightly. And all Leaders after JFK are just too polarizing. The Cold War was an intense time. The World held it's breath as America and Soviet Russia stood eye to eye and neither blinked. I want the two superpowers on display for the next installment of this series. Just think of the drama with Ike leading America. And Khrushchev leading Russia. And America in the Ike era was ready to take on anybody anywhere.

 

[Aurelesk]

Honestly more than anything, I just want America to be powerful... like it was and is irl. I feel like since America is always one of the first civs added it's always really weakish.

I cannot agree with that sentence. Its reciprocal is way too dangerous to even been formulated:
« Honestly more than anything, I just want [a non-1st-power country] to be powerless... like it was and is irl. I feel like since [non-1st-power country] is always one of the last civs added it's always really strongish. »

See? Dangerous thought you have!

The problem with all global powers, they kind of have it all. Science? Yes. Industry? Yes. Culture? Yes. Diplomacy? Yes. Economy? Yes. Military? Yes. They just have it all. You cannot both have a game being balanced and have at the same time a Civilization being good at everything. France has been one of the key leaders of Science progress through history in the world. Does any iteration of France has been linked to Science whatsoever? No, because they focused more on its Cultural or Military aspects.

USA can have any ability linked to any gameplay and it would still make sense. I rather want a balanced USA focusing on key gameplay mechanic representing a key moment on its history than either a [unbalanced approach] overpowered civilization good at everything, or [balanced approach] well-around civilization that have bonuses toward everything but globally is good at nothing. I mean, we all witnessed England in VI. The game wanted it to be everything, Naval domination, Colonial hegemony, Economical domination, Industrial pioneer, a huge Cultural aspect... and it ended to be the weird thing we have now.

In a sense, I know we cannot have a balanced game (impossible task), and maybe USA would one of the next overpowered one. But I hope it would by accident instead of being on purpose. The most important things for me are:

• Flavor-wise: the civilization I play, does it feel very US-American or it is just a set of game mechanic?
• Fun-wise: Do I have fun with them?
• Balance-wise: Can I honestly say either "I cheat the game by using them" or "Any strategy would have done better with most of the other civilizations" at any point in the game?

 

[Zaarin]

I cannot agree with that sentence. Its reciprocal is way too dangerous to even been formulated:
« Honestly more than anything, I just want [a non-1st-power country] to be powerless... like it was and is irl. I feel like since [non-1st-power country] is always one of the last civs added it's always really strongish. »

See? Dangerous thought you have!

The problem with all global powers, they kind of have it all. Science? Yes. Industry? Yes. Culture? Yes. Diplomacy? Yes. Economy? Yes. Military? Yes. They just have it all. You cannot both have a game being balanced and have at the same time a Civilization being good at everything. France has been one of the key leaders of Science progress through history in the world. Does any iteration of France has been linked to Science whatsoever? No, because they focused more on its Cultural or Military aspects.

USA can have any ability linked to any gameplay and it would still make sense. I rather want a balanced USA focusing on key gameplay mechanic representing a key moment on its history than either a [unbalanced approach] overpowered civilization good at everything, or [balanced approach] well-around civilization that have bonuses toward everything but globally is good at nothing. I mean, we all witnessed England in VI. The game wanted it to be everything, Naval domination, Colonial hegemony, Economical domination, Industrial pioneer, a huge Cultural aspect... and it ended to be the weird thing we have now.

In a sense, I know we cannot have a balanced game (impossible task), and maybe USA would one of the next overpowered one. But I hope it would by accident instead of being on purpose. The most important things for me are:

• Flavor-wise: the civilization I play, does it feel very US-American or it is just a set of game mechanic?
• Fun-wise: Do I have fun with them?
• Balance-wise: Can I honestly say either "I cheat the game by using them" or "Any strategy would have done better with most of the other civilizations" at any point in the game?

100% to all of this.

 

[Evie]

Thirded. Real-world power and in-game power should not correlate. All civs shouls have their strength and weaknesses.

The point of civ is to rewrite history (in wild and often nonsensical ways). Making the superpowers superpowerful automatically stand against this.

 

[jsciv69]

Here's how I see America for the next Civ installment.

Leader. Dwight D. Eisenhower
Traits: Militaristic, Organizational, Industrial(military and civil), Mobilizational
Civ features: Interstate Highway System: Settlers provide instant road connecting new city to city of origin and Capital City. All roads upgrade to asphalt freeways when entering Modern Era. All units get extra movement. Military Recruitment: Each city with a Military Training Post(unlocked by completing Military Training Tech. and cheap to build) doubles unit output, and capabilities. Population Boom: Each new city gets extra population. Each population growth(after completing Military Training Post) gains free Military Unit.
Units: Marines(Semper Fi): Extra movement through any tile on land or at sea. B-52 Bomber: Triple damage against Cities, extra Bombload, ability to drop Atomic Bombs. M60 Battle Tank: Double firepower when attacking cities, Double defense when fortified. LCVP Amphibious Landing Craft: Doubles unit capacity. Doubles defense capability when attacked at sea. CH-46 Sea Knight: Transport Helicopter triple unit capacity. Can drop units at Sea or shore.
Buildings and Improvements: Sports Stadium: Double bonus culture bonus and tourism output. Camp Pendleton(replaces Military Training Post) Unlocks Marines. Gains two extra Marines Units. unlock Worker ability to construct Helipad upon reaching Atomic Era.(on land or at Sea) capable of launching and landing Transport Helicopters. CIA Headquarters: Doubles success rate for spy agents. Allows Spies more success launching Coups in rival Civ Cities. TV Studio. Give major culture bonuses. Doubles success of Great Performers( comedians, musicians) and Great Actors/Actresses
Great Performers: George Burns, Sammy Davis Jr, Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra, Louis Armstrong, Benny Goodman, Count Basie, Eddie Van Halen
Great Actors/Actresses: Marlon Brando, Judy Garland, Elizabeth Taylor, Clint Eastwood, Grace Kelly, Henry Fonda, James Cagney, Humphrey Bogart, Lauren Bacall
Great General: Douglas MacArthur, George Patton
Great Admiral: Chester Nimitz

 

[Evie]

That...is utterly broken. Even the strongest civ 6 civs look like the pre-patch Khmers in comparison. The worst of those abilities, units and buildings would be very strong, and most would be enough to break a civ by themselves, let alone combined with others.

Some very good starting points, mind you. Just would have to pick and chose from the list a lot and tone it down a bit to make it work.

 

[jsciv69]

That...is utterly broken. Even the strongest civ 6 civs look like the pre-patch Khmers in comparison. The worst of those abilities, units and buildings would be very strong, and most would be enough to break a civ by themselves, let alone combined with others.

Some very good starting points, mind you. Just would have to pick and chose from the list a lot and tone it down a bit to make it work.

If there is to be a next installment. It will likely be the last. It would be fitting to have these Civs at either the height of their power or any point of some glory. Ike represents an Era when America was at a high point. In terms of standing in the World, population growth, Military and Industrial giant, rising culture. Baseball reached the height of popularity in the 50's. And Football began to emerge. Plus America became 50 states during the Ike Era. And in that time, the Cold War was very intense. So with a possible next Civilization. And probably the last. Let's give it a strong America.

 

[Zaarin]

If there is to be a next installment. It will likely be the last.

On what to you base that assessment? The franchise and the genre are both going strong; there's no reason to assume Firaxis won't continue making Civilization until it becomes an unprofitable hollow shell of its former self.

It would be fitting to have these Civs at either the height of their power or any point of some glory.

That was Civ5's MO, but I think Civ7 needs to find its own identity. Plus there comes a point where unique features become so oversaturated and so overpowered that they cease to be unique at all. I think Civ6 reached about the pinnacle of how many uniques you can jam into a civ before they start to cancel each other out; I wouldn't expect to see much more from Civ7.

 

[Aurelesk]

It would be fitting to have these Civs at either the height of their power or any point of some glory. Ike represents an Era when America was at a high point. In terms of standing in the World, population growth, Military and Industrial giant, rising culture.

I have the perfect abilities for you them!

Brain Drain (JFK probably):
+25% Tourism from international Trade Route. Each international Trade Routes gives 2 Food, 3 Gold, and 1 Great People related to the districts the foreign city has. Each time a city builds a Neighborhood district, it gains 1 Population. Cities with Neighborhood has their Specialists yields doubled.

War Profiteer:
Can sell units to Civilizations with Declaration of Friendship. Ignore closed borders. Sold unit also generates Tourism equal to their Production value.

Navy SEALs:
Replaces the Spec Ops. Can use both Melee or Ranged damage. Start with both with Commando (Can scale Cliffs walls, +1 Movement) and Amphibious (No Combat Strength Movement penalty when attacking from Sea or over a River).

Mega-Mart:
Replace the Shopping Mall. +3 Amenity, +2 Gold per Population and +10 Tourism.

Please do note that those abilities are not meant to be taken seriously. I mean, I wish I could be even more offensive on the representation and make as many people upset! This is more for the fun and, a way to introduce my next segment.

The height of USA started from the Cold War to... now. Well, I would better say since 1900. The civilization franchise stopped to represent anything after 1950 (or 1939). Which is good for me. Not that recent history is neither important nor interesting, but it is tricky. We are far from knowing how the choices made less than 70 years ago were good and what would be their consequences if any. Furthermore, many people knew those time and suffered from it. Maybe we are going to praise something right now what we would consider absolutely awful in 50 years. In a sense, I am glad that Firaxis stopped to represent anything happened from WWII to now.
If they wanted to represent the height, I guess a pre-1929 USA is possible? Wait... it is Teddy Roosevelt's USA!

Baseball reached the height of popularity in the 50's. And Football began to emerge.

Baseball and American Football are endemic sport, like Ice Hockey is for Canada and Scandinavian countries. In a way where almost nobody outside of the USA is willing to watch it... But I don't want a "Baseball Field" as a unique tile improvement.

 

[Zaarin]

JFK probably

Ew.

Mega-Mart:

More ew.

Please do note that those abilities are not meant to be taken seriously. I mean, I wish I could be even more offensive on the representation and make as many people upset! This is more for the fun and, a way to introduce my next segment.

*slow clap*

The height of USA started from the Cold War to... now. Well, I would better say since 1900. The civilization franchise stopped to represent anything after 1950 (or 1939). Which is good for me. Not that recent history is neither important nor interesting, but it is tricky. We are far from knowing how the choices made less than 70 years ago were good and what would be their consequences if any. Furthermore, many people knew those time and suffered from it. Maybe we are going to praise something right now what we would consider absolutely awful in 50 years. In a sense, I am glad that Firaxis stopped to represent anything happened from WWII to now.
If they wanted to represent the height, I guess a pre-1929 USA is possible? Wait... it is Teddy Roosevelt's USA!

While I don't approve of backward-projecting morality, I do agree that we're simply not in the position to historically assess the long term historical significance of the mid-to-late twentieth century. In many ways, it seems like jsciv69 has fallen for the glamorous cult of the 1950s: a combination of pop glitz, a veneer of civility, and booming post-War prosperity--all of which was proven to be artificial by the next decade. Yes, America was at the height of its world power in the decades after World War II, but these decades were marked by social conflict, cultural segmentation, and runaway materialism. I would by no means call the 1950s the pinnacle of American civilization. I agree that anything more recent than WW2 is just too recent to include, and even WW2-era leaders are going to be mired in controversy (with rare exceptions like Wilhelmina).

Baseball and American Football are endemic sport, like Ice Hockey is for Canada and Scandinavian countries.

We have ice hockey in the US, even in hot regions like Arizona and Florida. Tampa, Fl actually has a really good team, I'm told.

 

[Aurelesk]

While I don't approve of backward-projecting morality

Oh, I mean more like historical events like the Treaty of Versailles. While it was not that harsh when we compare to the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk or the Treaty of Trianon, it did lead to the rise of a far-right extremism in Germany and World War II. Many people considers the Treaty was at fault and was too harsh, so the Entente have it coming. Except... it made perfect sense at the time.

I do not approve the backward-projecting morality too.

*slow clap*

Glad you recognize true talent! To be fair, I first put Nixon, but the joke will be too evident and I am pretty sure we would have some sort of debate because of this.

 

[jsciv69]

I have the perfect abilities for you them!

Brain Drain (JFK probably):
+25% Tourism from international Trade Route. Each international Trade Routes gives 2 Food, 3 Gold, and 1 Great People related to the districts the foreign city has. Each time a city builds a Neighborhood district, it gains 1 Population. Cities with Neighborhood has their Specialists yields doubled.

War Profiteer:
Can sell units to Civilizations with Declaration of Friendship. Ignore closed borders. Sold unit also generates Tourism equal to their Production value.

Navy SEALs:
Replaces the Spec Ops. Can use both Melee or Ranged damage. Start with both with Commando (Can scale Cliffs walls, +1 Movement) and Amphibious (No Combat Strength Movement penalty when attacking from Sea or over a River).

Mega-Mart:
Replace the Shopping Mall. +3 Amenity, +2 Gold per Population and +10 Tourism.

Please do note that those abilities are not meant to be taken seriously. I mean, I wish I could be even more offensive on the representation and make as many people upset! This is more for the fun and, a way to introduce my next segment.

The height of USA started from the Cold War to... now. Well, I would better say since 1900. The civilization franchise stopped to represent anything after 1950 (or 1939). Which is good for me. Not that recent history is neither important nor interesting, but it is tricky. We are far from knowing how the choices made less than 70 years ago were good and what would be their consequences if any. Furthermore, many people knew those time and suffered from it. Maybe we are going to praise something right now what we would consider absolutely awful in 50 years. In a sense, I am glad that Firaxis stopped to represent anything happened from WWII to now.
If they wanted to represent the height, I guess a pre-1929 USA is possible? Wait... it is Teddy Roosevelt's USA!


Baseball and American Football are endemic sport, like Ice Hockey is for Canada and Scandinavian countries. In a way where almost nobody outside of the USA is willing to watch it... But I don't want a "Baseball Field" as a unique tile improvement.

I thought of adding the Seals. And also The Super Aircraft Carrier. Maybe one that could load extra planes. The whole Navy got a face-lift in the 1950's. The Nuclear Powered Ships saved fuel. As for Baseball. The game has a special identity with America. And in the 50's Baseball was epic as ever. The color-line was broken. Bringing to the big stage, players like Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays, and Hank Aaron. The rivalries in New York were especially heated in this time. The Yankees, Dodgers, and Giants fan feuds was at a fever pitch. So maybe something to honor the Game as a special building. I see JFK being used in a creative scenario regarding the Cuban Missile Crisis. I want to bring Cold War drama to the game. That would be a perfect scenario.

 

[Zaarin]

Oh, I mean more like historical events like the Treaty of Versailles. While it was not that harsh when we compare to the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk or the Treaty of Trianon, it did lead to the rise of a far-right extremism in Germany and World War II. Many people considers the Treaty was at fault and was too harsh, so the Entente have it coming. Except... it made perfect sense at the time.

During my master's I read an interesting argument that if World War I had been avoided, it would have prevented the rise of the Soviet Union, Fascist Italy, and Nazi Germany. It's an interesting argument because all three were founded by people who had been radicalized during the War, but I think it breaks down when you consider that 1) these regions were hotbeds of political radicalism already, 2) the Balkans exist, and 3) other participants in the War (like the United States and the United Kingdom) did not experience radical revolutions. I don't think the Treaty of Versailles was solely responsible. It made matters worse to be sure, but there were plenty of other factors involved (economic, political, ideological, social, etc.).

Glad you recognize true talent! To be fair, I first put Nixon, but the joke will be too evident and I am pretty sure we would have some sort of debate because of this.

TBH I suspect JFK's reputation wouldn't be so different from Nixon's if he hadn't been martyred. On the one hand, JFK had a great deal of charisma to overcome his incompetence and corruption, which Nixon lacked, but on the other hand Nixon had a great deal of intelligence to compensate for his sociopathy and corruption, which JFK lacked.

As for Baseball. The game has a special identity with America. And in the 50's Baseball was epic as ever.

Only two good things have come out of baseball: "Who's on First?" and Benjamin Sisko.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

If there is to be a next installment. It will likely be the last. It would be fitting to have these Civs at either the height of their power or any point of some glory. Ike represents an Era when America was at a high point. In terms of standing in the World, population growth, Military and Industrial giant, rising culture. Baseball reached the height of popularity in the 50's. And Football began to emerge. Plus America became 50 states during the Ike Era. And in that time, the Cold War was very intense. So with a possible next Civilization. And probably the last. Let's give it a strong America.

That doesn't mean we need 5 UUs and 5 unique infrastructures for them, let alone each civ.

Mega-Mart:
Replace the Shopping Mall. +3 Amenity, +2 Gold per Population and +10 Tourism.

These bonuses would work for a particular Theme Park/Resort located in Orlando and Anaheim.
Nobody would outright replace a Shopping Mall for a Mega-Mart and it be better.

 

[Zaarin]

These bonuses would work for a particular Theme Park/Resort located in Orlando and Anaheim.

But could Firaxis afford the licensing cost? I guess it'll be fine once Disney buys Firaxis, too.