Detailed Tradition Game

[CrazyG]

do you understand how franchises provide benefits?

I don't. Also I have no clue what the max franchise # is. It is common to reach it?

 

[Stalker0]

I don't. Also I have no clue what the max franchise # is. It is common to reach it?

alright I will write you a guide since you asked so nicely

 

[DeAnno]

I'm a little surprised not to see more love for Veneration in this Mastery-vs-Buildings debate, those quick yields really hit. Especially since Apostolic Tradition is a moderately powerful Faith engine so you'll get some residual culture/gold/border growth from that too.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm a little surprised not to see more love for Veneration in this Mastery-vs-Buildings debate, those quick yields really hit. Especially since Apostolic Tradition is a moderately powerful Faith engine so you'll get some residual culture/gold/border growth from that too.

The AI seems to LOVE veneration, I rarely even get it as an option.

 

[CrazyG]

I'm a little surprised not to see more love for Veneration in this Mastery-vs-Buildings debate, those quick yields really hit. Especially since Apostolic Tradition is a moderately powerful Faith engine so you'll get some residual culture/gold/border growth from that too.

It was already taken by Arabia in this game. Veneration is never terrible but I don't think its the best option here. Its a total of 4 yields per city and 10% of faith as culture/gold. I'm going to pursue a strategy of stacking multipliers (which the culture won't be affected by) and I'm also not taking fealty. Note that great prophet spawns don't count as spending faith so veneration won't activate and I want a couple of holy sites for culture/tourism.

Sorry for taking a while to finish this guide I'm replaying the turns from founding religion till renaissance with a different follower belief to compare. Mini-spoiler, golden age points are really valuable.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Great in-deph tradition guide! I usually play authority or progress. This guide helped me getting a good tradition game with Israel.

 

[rkkn]

I also wait until a quest for his land before I cross over, to get science and influence from a city-state.

This avoiding exploration is something I have never done. Do you only do it when going Tradition?

 

[CrazyG]

This avoiding exploration is something I have never done. Do you only do it when going Tradition?

I might skip it as authority but in general its something I try to do.

 

[CrazyG]

So there's good news and bad news.

Good news is I was doing very well which means the guide should have at least some value in helping to generate lots of culture/science.

The bad news is the AI has gotten pretty good about attacking snowballing civs. All 7 declared war on me, which in short will make a peace-focused guide difficult to complete. The right move would be to immediately transition hard to a military focused game. But I'll try to stick out and win peacefully. This could be a loss. Either way it will be interesting.

 

[KlHannibal2]

So there's good news and bad news.

Good news is I was doing very well which means the guide should have at least some value in helping to generate lots of culture/science.

The bad news is the AI has gotten pretty good about attacking snowballing civs. All 7 declared war on me, which in short will make a peace-focused guide difficult to complete. The right move would be to immediately transition hard to a military focused game. But I'll try to stick out and win peacefully. This could be a loss. Either way it will be interesting.

Pretty much what happened in my Israel game. Facing 3 civs with 50 cities combined with 5 cities of my own.

 

[rkkn]

I see that this game is with ruins off. I hadn't ever actually played with them off. It seems turning them off changes the early game quite a lot.

The fact that exploring quickly is much less important significantly changes what you want to do, and it delays the early wonders by more than I would have expected.

 

[stii]

I see that this game is with ruins off. I hadn't ever actually played with them off. It seems turning them off changes the early game quite a lot.

The fact that exploring quickly is much less important significantly changes what you want to do, and it delays the early wonders by more than I would have expected.

Yeah ruins double hit wonders, giving free techs and free production. It still varies from patch to patch if pyramids is reasonable on deity or not.

 

[CrazyG]

Big Update for the Medieva Era:

This guide focuses on tradition so I'm focusing on what specifically a tall-tradition style empire should be considering at this stage. As mentioned earlier, my goal is to get a culture lead, after that everything should fall into place.

Spoiler Tech, Build Orders, and General Strategy :

What you research is a big choice, so I'll look at the tech tree when covering my general strategy. After education I went for currency, because I'm carthage and want to great cothon, also because villages are strong and the extra trade route is nice.

This game, I have lapiz lazuli, which are boosted by ampitheaters, so I went for that building early on and invested gold in it. This is an exception though, generally gold goes to the capital. Tech orders should prioritize whatever wonder you want to grab (your cities will have plenty that's worthwhile to build). Its normal to have a long queue of stuff you want, like barracks, baths, aqueducts, workshops... You'll get those buildings eventually, in the short term focus on the capital. If you need military or trade units, have other cities build them (or buy them, its not a big deal to lose a bit of XP)

Here I decided to go for Hagia Sophia so I can spam out missionaries while still enhancing fast. I only get 2 medieval era wonders, which is enough. After that I went towards astronomy to enter the renaissance, I will try for Chichen Itza. I only take techs for military units I really need it, like I'll lose a city without it. I think I can defend with just composite bows, so no need to get steel or machinery yet.

For a pic, here's my cities' economic stats. High culture and science is my focus, and they reflect that. Gades and Hippo Regius are receiving production trade routes. Utique is temporarily stalled at 8 pop, which is fine, its working many strong tiles and 2 writer specialists. 30 culture from a secondary city is an excellent return.

Spoiler Food and Trade Routes :

Food is generally a pretty weak yield in classical to early medieval era. You end up paying hundreds of food for a new citizen to work like a pasture that gives like 5 net yields. Focus on gold/production because the buildings are so strong, cities only need to be at like 8 population for now. Some implications here:

• Carthage is not working any high food tiles at all. It skip oasis and fish, and it doesn't waste 40 hammers improving the fish either.
• I used my religion to get food for the capital and gave it a food trade route. If I had a different religion I would have given it multiple, trade routes a good low opportunity cost way to get food. Farms + foreign routes will be worse than food routes + specialists.
• Other cities do work a 1-2 food tiles, mainly fish. I do build workboats there, but not as a high priority. I built a couple of farms just to watch how useless they are, there is a wheat farm I briefly worked for like 2 turns but that's it. Wheat is a good place to put great people.
• Often a secondary city will build a guild, and immediately work 2 writers (especially if you take mastery). It will stagnate for a while but that's okay, the purpose of cities is to give resource to the capital, so culture fits that description.

Generally I give every new city 1 production route to get going, then by about renaissance I give it 1 food route. This should give you a city around 12 pop with most buildings. Other routes either give food to the capital, or run to an allied city-state. You can get big science for trade with a major civ, but caravans are expensive to replace and its difficult to know who'll you will be at war with in 25 turns.

Here's a look at Utique which stalled at 8 population for like 40 turns.

Spoiler Diplomacy :

Maybe my advice on this topic shouldn't be listened to because I did pretty poorly this game. I tried pretty hard to make friends, I spread my religion and even built Brazil a landmark, but eventually everyone hates me. I think its partially because the diplo penalty for a coup is quite harsh, but I can't resist those huge yields for the quest.

This game was a soap opera.

So early on I ally with China and Russia against Brazil. But then Russia stabs me in the back and wars me and China. I end up allied with Brazil, who I had earlier denounced. We share a religion so relations look good. The war is short and Russia does very poorly, but not she hates me, even with shared religion. China captures and raizes one of Russia's 3 cities. China looks like the top AI on my continent.

Then Indonesia wars China. China has a tech lead, more military score, the great wall, great generals, two citadels, and the chu-ko-nu, and she somehow gets absolutely crushed, loses several cities and becomes a vassal. This really surprised me.

Now Indonesia is surging ahead of the other AI and he hates me. He has befriended both Brazil and Russia. Indonesia and Russia war me together, bringing in China too. But I was prepared so its not that bad.

Now, the other continent. It's 3 civs with 3 different religions who have all denounced each other. Mongolia is at constant war with both Germany and Arabia, who hate each other nonetheless. All three offered me friendship as soon as we met, I took it with Arabia.

In late renaissance, Indonesia and Russia war me again, but this time Brazil stabs me in the back, so I'm fighting my entire continent, including several city states. Brazil has an unusually high preference for CS allies, given he is a cultural/artistry civ, he really hates competing for CS friends and he hates that my culture got so far ahead of his. Military wise, it looks pretty bad for a bit, but a spy coup on a city state on the front line helps a lot. At the end of renaissance I'm mostly at peace except for Brazil, who isn't a threat unless Russia also attacks.

Spoiler Entering Renaissance :

Astronomy to attempt Chichen Itza. I also can send missionaries overseas to spread, which I will, and I already have a swarm of them bought and ready to go (they are cheaper in medieval era than renaissance).

I'm going to write a big update for religion because I tested a few different approaches.

 

[Thibix Magnus]

very curious about the renaissance, and how you navigate wonder hoarding vs angering everyone... also Brandenburg vs Louvre is a painful dilemma for me, but that's maybe more a OCC thing were supply cap really hurts.

 

[CrazyG]

Tradition and Religion:

I replayed this game twice from founding my religion with different approaches. Here is what I found:

Spoiler Mastery :

Apostolic Tradition and Mastery. Buy missionaries first.

These two work well together and well with tradition. You grow very quickly even with more than half the population on specialists. I'll mention again that founding Gades so close to my capital was really important here, to help work strong tiles like lapiz lazuli, villages, and great person tiles. I want to get Carthage to the point it works every scientist and every culture specialist available.

Immediate Value: 4 culture
20 turns later: Capital 5 culture, multiplied to 9 due to golden age. 2 science (also somewhat multiplied)
2 culture in Utique.

That fast payoff is what I really want.

Religious Development:
No need to spend faith on buildings, so faster reformation and enhance.
The only argument I see against mastery is that late game (industrial era and beyond), faith buildings could give more yields. Its true but not a big deal in my view. Also if the immediate power of mastery means you grabbed an extra wonder, you can offset a lot of that disadvantage.

A few people expressed concern that the GAP from mastery are pointless, because you eventually have a permanent golden age. There are a few things to note here:

1. Even if they are pointless eventually, they have a noticeable impact now. The mastery playthrough had its next golden age 4 turns earlier than the other games.
2. I had a golden age longer monopoly, I built Chichen Itza, and in the new version tradition doesn't have +25% golden age length. Typical games on newer version will need a lot more golden age points that I generated to go infinite. I also was barely going infinite (I reached the required GAP on the exact turn it ended twice in a row)
3. The earlier your golden ages arrive the better. I started permanent golden age status in early renaissance, that's a lot stronger than starting it in the modern era.
4. I think upcoming changes (like changing the coup CS quest) will decrease bonus yields of GAP a lot.3.
5. Great Works of Art are quite valuable. They have good yields themselves, with rationalism its +3% in a city. Museums are easy to theme and give a big chunk of yields, big wonders like Louvre or Sistene Chapel also have a big payoff if themed.

After using all faith on missionaries, I am able to reform on turn 112. I pick the belief that allows faith purchasing archeologists and gives faith/science to great person tiles. I enhance on turn 122 by completing Hagia Sophia. If I didn't feel confident about this, I could have just saved up faith. I take the +33% great person points during golden ages, and synagogues.

Founder Beliefs:
Apostolic Tradition did really well. I predicted two nieghbors wouldn't found, and had many city states to spread to. This gave a lot of food which really helped the capital. The fiath for techs was solid, it had a big impact in getting my religion running so fast. Late game this helped me to purchase great people, tall empires don't have much faith. Divine Inheritance or Ceremonial burial would have been good too, but I really wanted that immediate food.
Follower beliefs:
There are many options other than synagogues, but I wanted a bit of science. I find that non-building into faith building goes MUCH better than the reverse.
Enhancer:
I did the math and this will give more than the flat great people points per turn, and I'm heavily invested in golden ages.
Reform:
There's a proposal to nerf this belief. Its a lot of science and faith and it really helps to get archeologists out faster.

This set of beliefs works really well for tradition-culture games. Make sensible changes if you want to win by spaceship/diplomacy.

Spoiler Follower Beliefs :

The follower beliefs that give culture are:

• Mastery
• Churches
• Inspiration
• Mosques
• Pagodas
• Veneration

Mastery: my choice, very good immediate culture when playing tradition, works well with artistry and tradition.
Churches: I never actually take churches, and this game I got a free one from Hagia Sophia. I could be wrong about them but I suspect they are much better with a fealty strategy.
Inspiration: not a bad belief, but this is actually better for progress or authority IMO.
Mosques: this would be a great choice, but I already have a free one.
Pagodas: this belief is easy to overlook but very strong. Here, I still think its a poor pick because China failed to spread her religion enough.
Veneration: a very strong belief but I think its better for fealty.

If you were playing for a non-tourism/culture strategy, there are a lot of good options. But playing artistry, especially as a low-culture civ in Carthage, a culture belief is easily the right pick.

Spoiler Strategy 2: Synagogues :

I tried taking synagogues first just to compare with getting it second, with purchasing synagogues when available instead of buying missionaries. The result:
Reformation occurs 13 turns later. I was not the first to reform as a result (still got my top pick though).
Finish Hagia Sophia to enhance 2 turns later. Still first to enhance.
Capital has 2 less population. I'm about 3~ turns slower in social policies, about 2 turns ahead in science. Production isn't very noticeable

Taking a building first slows down your religion development substantially.

Spoiler Strategy 3: Inspiration :

I initially was going to take the non-mastery culture belief to compare but it was just so much clearly worse I gave up. You have more faith but less culture, and no science/production.

You do reform faster, but just 1 turn. Didn't play until enhance, it was obviously worse.

 

[CrazyG]

very curious about the renaissance, and how you navigate wonder hoarding vs angering everyone... also Brandenburg vs Louvre is a painful dilemma for me, but that's maybe more a OCC thing were supply cap really hurts.

For an OCC, that's a tough choice.

I think the right question is "Will I die without this?" If you won't don't research military techs. Its okay to lose a couple units. Renaissance update coming. I'll spoil that I think a key to winning peaceful games is getting archeology quickly.

 

[stii]

Spoiler Diplomacy :

Maybe my advice on this topic shouldn't be listened to because I did pretty poorly this game. I tried pretty hard to make friends, I spread my religion and even built Brazil a landmark, but eventually everyone hates me. I think its partially because the diplo penalty for a coup is quite harsh, but I can't resist those huge yields for the quest.

This game was a soap opera.

So early on I ally with China and Russia against Brazil. But then Russia stabs me in the back and wars me and China. I end up allied with Brazil, who I had earlier denounced. We share a religion so relations look good. The war is short and Russia does very poorly, but not she hates me, even with shared religion. China captures and raizes one of Russia's 3 cities. China looks like the top AI on my continent.

Then Indonesia wars China. China has a tech lead, more military score, the great wall, great generals, two citadels, and the chu-ko-nu, and she somehow gets absolutely crushed, loses several cities and becomes a vassal. This really surprised me.

Now Indonesia is surging ahead of the other AI and he hates me. He has befriended both Brazil and Russia. Indonesia and Russia war me together, bringing in China too. But I was prepared so its not that bad.

Now, the other continent. It's 3 civs with 3 different religions who have all denounced each other. Mongolia is at constant war with both Germany and Arabia, who hate each other nonetheless. All three offered me friendship as soon as we met, I took it with Arabia.

In late renaissance, Indonesia and Russia war me again, but this time Brazil stabs me in the back, so I'm fighting my entire continent, including several city states. Brazil has an unusually high preference for CS allies, given he is a cultural/artistry civ, he really hates competing for CS friends and he hates that my culture got so far ahead of his. Military wise, it looks pretty bad for a bit, but a spy coup on a city state on the front line helps a lot. At the end of renaissance I'm mostly at peace except for Brazil, who isn't a threat unless Russia also attacks.

Spoiler diplomacy :

I think you'd have been a lot better off if you had built a settler for the third city quicker and settled more aggressively. I went settler right away and placed it on the sheep SW of your Glades. It fully locks Russia out of that area and the inland sea as well. Forcing Russia back a bit makes them more friendly with less shared borders and makes defending trivial

 

[CrazyG]

Spoiler diplomacy :

I think you'd have been a lot better off if you had built a settler for the third city quicker and settled more aggressively. I went settler right away and placed it on the sheep SW of your Glades. It fully locks Russia out of that area and the inland sea as well. Forcing Russia back a bit makes them more friendly with less shared borders and makes defending trivial

Spoiler To settle or not? :

This would have a lot of advantages, including locking Russia out of the inland sea. However Russia isn't a very big issue here (eventually its gatling guns vs knights). 5 units is enough to defend that side completely, and on the side with Indonesia its a tight chokepoint too so I'm not really using all my supply. With the city state and a hill its a tiny choke point. The only real challenge from war is I lose access to foreign trade routes. I could easily take St. Petersburg if I wasn't forcing myself to play peacefully. An early war with Russia would have been a lot more difficult than the late game wars have been.

Economically that sheep tile is a really poor city position, and it blocks me from putting a city where Gades is. Especially for the sake of a guide, I wanted to point out how useful sharing space with the capital is.

 

[Thibix Magnus]

For an OCC, that's a tough choice.

I think the right question is "Will I die without this?" If you won't don't research military techs. Its okay to lose a couple units. Renaissance update coming. I'll spoil that I think a key to winning peaceful games is getting archeology quickly.

yeah I would tend to beeline archeology and hope for the best, though is possible to get both louvre and brandenburg at least on immortal.

Spoiler about religion :

I tend to think a successful religion spread is key to peaceful tall CV. You have to reap some yields that lie outside your tiny borders. The issue is that peaceful tall also needs a defensible start as you show here, with limited shared borders to eventually defend with few units. This implies relying more on luck about who founds and who doesn't, you have fewer neighbours so you really need them not to found. If all my accessible neighbours found I think I should give up on peaceful tall, unless I feel I can sniff out a religion. What would you have done if all your neighbours - or even all your continent - founded? I really wonder if you can manage without a good spread, say divine inheritance (worse with with new patch?), maybe pagodas+Taj, and a very late and costly reformation (or none).

About follower beliefs, as tall CV I tend to go for churches as second follower, when the founder belief is more sustain-oriented than burst-oriented, i.e. ceremonial, holy law or transcendence (and a food-heavy start that reduces the appeal of apostolic). The added pressure helps passively defending your religion in later phases against good religious civs, otherwise these beliefs become a faith sink to defend. However that was from a time where WLTKD were harder to get compared to now, I should try synagoges more. Then again, here you don't have a strong religious rival nor a long-term founder so synagogues make sense anyway.

About reformation, getting archeologists out quickly, with faith so it doesn't slow your capital, seems really nice to compete with other culture rivals without conquest, but you are giving up on TTGOG, to me it's one of the toughest choices as peaceful tall CV. Though picking rationalism already reduces the appeal of TTGOG, the great writer combo really helps delaying a rival CV before you catch up in tourism.

 

[CrazyG]

yeah I would tend to beeline archeology and hope for the best, though is possible to get both louvre and brandenburg at least on immortal.

Spoiler about religion :

I tend to think a successful religion spread is key to peaceful tall CV. You have to reap some yields that lie outside your tiny borders. The issue is that peaceful tall also needs a defensible start as you show here, with limited shared borders to eventually defend with few units. This implies relying more on luck about who founds and who doesn't, you have fewer neighbours so you really need them not to found. If all my accessible neighbours found I think I should give up on peaceful tall, unless I feel I can sniff out a religion. What would you have done if all your neighbours - or even all your continent - founded? I really wonder if you can manage without a good spread, say divine inheritance (worse with with new patch?), maybe pagodas+Taj, and a very late and costly reformation (or none).

About follower beliefs, as tall CV I tend to go for churches as second follower, when the founder belief is more sustain-oriented than burst-oriented, i.e. ceremonial, holy law or transcendence (and a food-heavy start that reduces the appeal of apostolic). The added pressure helps passively defending your religion in later phases against good religious civs, otherwise these beliefs become a faith sink to defend. However that was from a time where WLTKD were harder to get compared to now, I should try synagoges more. Then again, here you don't have a strong religious rival nor a long-term founder so synagogues make sense anyway.

About reformation, getting archeologists out quickly, with faith so it doesn't slow your capital, seems really nice to compete with other culture rivals without conquest, but you are giving up on TTGOG, to me it's one of the toughest choices as peaceful tall CV. Though picking rationalism already reduces the appeal of TTGOG, the great writer combo really helps delaying a rival CV before you catch up in tourism.

Spoiler Thoughts on religion :

You are able to make a strong religion that doesn't require spreading:
Divine Inheritance + Sacred/Calendar/Syncretism + Inspired Works gives 3 a really strong capital with no need to spread (Sacred Calendar has a reward for spreading but its minor).

Religious spreading is a battle of attrition which tall empires are really bad at. With that said, ancestor worship really needs a nerf because it just puts you in too good of a position religiously. I don't think I agree on churches, they are useful for some strategies but not especially for a tall tradition-artistry-tourism game. I certainly wouldn't pick it in an OCC, you can just get a free church from Hagia Sophia if you really want that extra faith. Just one church in the capital is enough to get that +1 faith per great work to basically all great works.

You certainly can win a tradition-fealty game, but you want to do a lot of things differently, and that's the situation I'd consider churches (and if I got a theology wonder, I would go for Boroburdur instead of of Hagia).

Yes, being able to faith purchase archeologists is a big deal. Not just because of production, but because they are instant, so you get each site completed a few turns earlier, the next one started a few turns earlier. It also means you only need to have completed a single public school to immediately reach your max archeologists (3), and it doesn't delay building Louvre (which allows you to temporarily have 5 on the field).

I think archeology is sneakily one of the strongest techs in the game.