[DEV] World map - discussions / design phase

USSR-1939 (Doing early 1930 is not recommended due to the about 10 million population loss during Holomdor and the Purges ^~^)
Population-169 Million
Moscow~4,100,000
Leningrad~3,000,000
Kiev~930,000
Minsk~300,000 (Belarus had around 5.5 Million people)
Sevastapol~350,000 (Difficult to tell the population here especially)
Smolensk~400,000
Odessa~550,000
Stalingrad~445,000
Novosibirsk~380,000
Vladivostok~300,000 (However Prisoner population is another 800,000, Gulags eh?)
(I also included Riga for initial Soviet annex purposes) Riga~380,000


Mind you the Soviets had a large amount of Prison Labour, and transferred factories. I have no clue how one would code that, or if you'd want to adjust population stats for some cities to reflect this. While becoming an Industrial center rather recently, the Soviets did have a large rural population, so some additions could be added. (Particularly in the Ukraine, Belarus, and around Stalingrad.)

It would definitely seem that you would need to push some industry deeper into the USSR, as they began out producing the Germans even when they held portions of their country. But alas, I wouldn't know how to handle that. Perhaps adding manufactory tiles on the cities closer to the Urals.

Hope this helps I love your mod and have been playing all the World maps, hoping to find problems and help with development any way I can.
 
Its gona be a minor but its a large area.

Canada

1931 10,377,000 total

Montréal 1,064,448
Toronto 856,955
Winnipeg 218,785
Vancouver 246,593
 
Thanks !

On a linked topic, I'm trying to redefine the max number of majors and minors in a game (there is a total of 63 slots shared between them, but it can't be changed easily, the ratio will be fixed on all map) so if there wasn't limitations (technical and assets), what do you think should be the list of playable civilizations ?

IMO, grouped by interest from a player PoV, top to bottom:

- Germany
- U.S.S.R.
- Japan
- U.S.A.

- U.K.
- Italy

- France

That would means 7 majors and 56 minors

If we expand the majors :

- China
- Finland
- Greece
- Poland
- Australia

That's 12 majors and 51 minors.

And to expand further the list:

- Netherlands
- Hungary
- Romania
- Yugoslavia
- Canada
- Bulgaria

That's 18 majors and 45 minors.

And to include "what if ?":

- Spain
- Sweden

So max major ratio would be 20 majors and 43 minors.

Did I miss some ?

The point is to made maps with the right balance between the number of nations and processing time (majors use much more)
 
On a world map I say limit to the max. Most country wont have enought production output anyway.
 
Gedemon, thank you again for your time and effort into everything involved.

Without knowing the mechanics of your current task, I understand you are converting what Lua you can to C++ to improve performance in game, specifically the time it takes for AI calculations to be made. I know this should make turns "faster" but obviously to what extent I do not know.

My two cents (post Lua to C++):

1) If utilizing the max of 20 Major nations would slow down the turns significantly decrease turn times again compared to fewer, then I like the idea of the original 7.

2) Preferably, if using more Major nations does not slow down the turns too much, I would love to see 20 Major nations as I like the idea of playing as revolutionary Spain or resistant Poland and somehow further changing the course of history among Major powers. However, if 20 Major nations would slow it down too much, maybe compromise with the 12?

I figure this is a decision that needs to be made before moving much further in your work, but it is difficult from my perspective to say what I would prefer without knowing how much of an improvement the C++ change will be for turn times and how significant of a slow down increasing the number of Majors would be.

Do you have any rough ideas as to how 20 vs 12 vs 7 Major nations would differ in turn times post conversion to C++?

Ultimately, since you have put in all this work to convert to C++ in order to improve turn times, then I would say go with 7 Major nations unless you think bumping up to 12 or even 20 might be negligible.
 
On a modmod optic it would be ideal to make it easier for further developement to make it easy converting minor to major but ideal is not always practical!
 
I'd recommend keeping it at seven, (although I feel if France is in, China should as well)

Reason being is that the current lag seems to be the major issue many people have. As zero stated, most nations, while fun to play, wouldn't be capable of actually fighting the war without nerfing their real potential. (Which would make let's say, the war against Poland as a player playing the Nazi's or the Soviets against an AI Major nation Poland, very difficult)

As fun as it would be to have every nation playable, to maintain the clear power variations at the time, some nations must be easily taken.
 
Anyone want to pick Germany, UK, USA, USSR, Italy, Japan or France ?

No urgency, but it will save some time when I'll get back to the map after coding...

I will be glad to research the rest of these....as far as I can tell you are missing Italy, France, Japan, UK, and Germany right?

Just a couple questions so I can get the best information.

What time frame will the world map start? That is going to cause some serious variations in population depending on what date the map will start on.

1. For Germany are you looking for the total population Austria Annex and Munich Agreement? Because if we include those populations it would change the numbers pretty significantly.

2. For UK are you just wanting the British population on in the British Isles or what would have been under the entire empire at that time?

3. Japan...do you want just the Japanese home island population or do you want to include the population including the land they had already conquered in Manchuria and mainland China?

4. France...do you want to include colony populations?

5. Italy...include Ethiopia population?
 
About the ratio majors/minors, if we use the higher majors number (20 majors and 43 minors), we can still have scenario with 5 majors on a map to speed things up (and we can make mod of any scenarios with up to 20 majors), but the real question is, can we still fill an earth map with the 43 minors slot left ?

Staying on the performance subject, the less freedom ("what if ?") we have, the faster a map can be by reducing the minor civs to the minimum number (making those that were not directly involved "closed" and represented by a single "neutral" minor civ you can't interact with...)

About population requirement, I've posted a draft of my current work on the development thread, basically it works as follow:

- We set the real world initial population number in the Civilization table
- We may set real world population in cities (that would require a new table)
- When we launch a game, the mod calculate the number of population from cities based on their size (if we use real world population in cities, we set their size based on that number instead), and we set a new number representing the "rural population" by checking the difference between "population in cities" and "real world initial population"
- Personnel is drafted from cities, reducing population
- Officers are trained from personnel
- Attacks on cities reduce population (killed)
- Cities "draft" new population from the "rural population" pool, trying to raise back to it's initial value
- Captured cities don't "draft" from the "rural population" pool, you can still recruit new units there (if you have the radio for propaganda), the personnel drafted into units will not be replaced (until the city is liberated)

The "rural population" pool is basically the people you can directly recruit from, and "colonies" (or "client state") will send directly drafted personnel to the major civ using convoy.That means we just need the main country population in the case of France, U.K. and Italy.

Annexation is something to discuss, IMO we could add Austria population to Germany (which means we need to keep track of some minor civs real world population too), but maybe not all Czechs (and keep Slovakia as a "client state")

For Japan, maybe include Korea but not Manchuria ? Or just Japan with convoy from Korea ?
 
That all sounds good, although one would have to be careful on the population loss statistics and the rate of drafting rural population. The Soviets managed to replace their entire army 5 times sizewise, while other nations struggled to maintain their militaries size, and this was due to a wide variety of factors.

I wouldn't mind multiple maps with more Majors, that would be preferable.

As for Annexations, Austria for the Germans, and the Baltics for the Soviets both should be added to their population. (Primarily because Austria rolled over and wanted to be annexed, and the Baltics became a recruiting pool for the Soviets) As for the Germans and the Czechs, it is your call. Technically the Germans still had heavy resistance in that region, heck, Heydrich was killed by Czech Fighters. I'd recommend whatever balances Germany out better. For Japan, Korea's population was relatively resistant to Japanese influence, a lot of Guerilla war there. But again, we need to avoid underpowering states that had a large amount of power.

I ask one question, for the Officers. Do you plan on reflecting the quality of some nations officers over another? For example, initial German victories came from a HUGE amount of Generals (2.3k became Generals after France fell) and the Soviets had relatively inexperienced and purged officers. (Not getting a surplus until around 1943, Zhukov and Vasilevsky being some of the initial good ones however) So I wonder if you would somehow reflect this skill in some nations. Perhaps have the Soviets and French begin with less officers and poorer officers respectively, and the Germans hold a surplus. I state all this because while playing against current Germany can be challenging, as the Soviet Union it is very simple to counter their tactics if one preps. I hope the officer addition would change that.

Good work sorry for the history crap xD!
 
If we use a 1:1 scale for population drafting, and even with a percentage limit (only draft population that can fight) we'll need to build a lot of (infantries) units before being limited by popultation.

On the other hand, the balance will be to make the numbers right to represent the end of war difficulties for some nations, which means that I'll surely set a different (scenario setting) scale for drafting.

About officers quality, I like the idea, but I do not see (yet) how to make a mechanism around that (officers number limits the number of units, not their combat level), do you have suggestions ?
 
If there is no level system for officers one could just limit officers at first for the Soviets. Either way the system will definitely help out with leveling out AI play ^~^
 
As promised....populations for UK, Germany, Italy, Japan, and France. All populations include no colonies or non-native lands for each county.

FRANCE 41,900,000

Paris 2,829,000
Marseille 814,000
Lyon 562,000
Bordeaux 256,000
Toulouse 213,000
Nice 209,000
Lille 200,000
Strasbourg 192,000
Nantes 190,000
Saint-Étienne 171,000


GERMANY 69,662,000

Berlin 4,338,800
München 829,300
Köln 772,200
Leipzig 707,400
Essen 666,700
Dresden 630,200
Frankfurt 553,500
Dortmund 542,300
Düsseldorf 541,400
Hannover 471,000


ITALY 44,394,000

Roma 1,155,700
Milano 1,115,800
Napoli 865,900
Genova 634,600
Torino 629,100
Palermo 411,900
Firenze 322,500
Bologna 269,700
Venezia 264,000
Trieste 248,400


UK 47,760,000

London 4,062,800
Liverpool 827,400
Manchester 732,900
Sheffield 520,000
Leeds 494,000
Edinburgh 475,500
Belfast 438,100
Bristol 415,500
Kingston 318,700
Newcastle 291,300


JAPAN 71,380,000

Tôkyô 5,875,700
Ôsaka 2,989,900
Nagoya 1,082,800
Kyôto 1,080,600
Kôbe 912,200
Yokohama 704,300
Kitakyûshû 581,700
Hiroshima 310,100
Fukuoka 291,200
Kure 231,300
 
Damn...I just saw your other post...looks like I was a day late. Well too bad. If you want, send me a list of the countries /capitals you still need for minor civs I would be glad to help
 
multiple sources are fine, and the total population was something I needed, thanks.
 
Gameplay/time wise I cannot say anything on the number of civs. Being a Dutch, I definitely want the Dutch to be playable. If not, fine...

Why Dutch: The Dutch had, at that time, colonies in the East (Dutch East Indies: current Indonesia) and in the West (Dutch West Indies: Netherlands Antilles and Surinam(e)). The Netherlands had the resource coal, while the the Dutch East Indies had oil and rubber (37% of the world's rubber export came from the Dutch East Indies), and Surinam had rubber, gold, and bauxite (aluminium).

Compared to, for example, the Greek, the Dutch had more population and more GDP.

Also the Dutch were commanding an allied fleet during the war in Asia.

Otherwise the Dutch role was played out beginning of 1942 with the Dutch East Indies being occupied by Japan.
 
Problem with the dutch is size however, very little to work with. They would be mowed down rather quick, as is reflected in reality.

I played another new game, kept crashing on turn 96 when it said Italy's turn was loading. (The Great Soviet Union had already began attacking Germany at that point, and even was done with iran. Damn does that AI have endless units though.)
 
Problem with the dutch is size however, very little to work with. They would be mowed down rather quick, as is reflected in reality.

True indeed, but the same holds for Greece. In fact they were population-wise smaller than the Netherlands. So, when looking at Gedemon's suggestion (at a world level) to included Greece, Finland, Poland as major, I would definitely replace one of these for the Netherlands. Although I am aware of the Russian-Finnish wars being interesting to play, on a world scale...hmmm... I'm playing as the Greek now and managed to conquer most of Germany and Italy, North-Africa, Balkans. Still this is the N-E map, but on a world map, they might be interesting with respect to their resources. And about size: the Netherlands is rather small, but Indonesia at that time was already big. And Surinam was never occupied (well, the US did station some troops but this was in agreement with the Dutch Government in London)...

Well, I'm not too hung up to playing the Dutch as major nation...just a suggestion...
 
True indeed, but the same holds for Greece. In fact they were population-wise smaller than the Netherlands. So, when looking at Gedemon's suggestion (at a world level) to included Greece, Finland, Poland as major, I would definitely replace one of these for the Netherlands. Although I am aware of the Russian-Finnish wars being interesting to play, on a world scale...hmmm... I'm playing as the Greek now and managed to conquer most of Germany and Italy, North-Africa, Balkans. Still this is the N-E map, but on a world map, they might be interesting with respect to their resources. And about size: the Netherlands is rather small, but Indonesia at that time was already big. And Surinam was never occupied (well, the US did station some troops but this was in agreement with the Dutch Government in London)...

Well, I'm not too hung up to playing the Dutch as major nation...just a suggestion...

Which is why I of course feel the main eight should be; Germans, Soviets, British, Japanese, Americans, French, Chinese, Italians. The small nations on a world map would just not be able to handle themselves, purely based on the games mechanics.
 
Top Bottom