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[Development] Map Suggestions

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, May 26, 2018.

  1. Krieger-FS

    Krieger-FS Chieftain

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    While I agree that Panama and Cartagena should be commerce-rich cities, I'm not so sure about removing the Pearls from Venezuela, given that this was the first resource exploited during the colonial era. Nonetheless, I'm not against adding another Pearls in the proposed location.

    About the change in the Gems, they represent Emeralds (if I'm not wrong, merijn even made a green Gems version so that we could add it) and I'm not against moving their location to open space to Medellín, even though Bogotá would probably be founded 1SE from that title in most games. When we were discussing Colombia, one of the main challenges was making room for her canonical cities whitout enlarging the continent (we could use another row of land near Equator to improve South America's shape, however Leoreth was against making any large changes on map).

    About the lagoon, as I see it is already included and the water title represents the Gulf of Venezuela. The exact location of Maracaibo would be in the border between these titles.
     
  2. stormogulen

    stormogulen Chieftain

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    A few suggestions on Southeast Asia.

    First, Burma area:

    Spoiler Burma :
    burma.jpg


    Terrain:

    The so called Dry Zone in the center of Burma is rain-shielded by the Arakan Mountains and quite dry during parts of the year (even classified as arid steppe in Köppen classification), so changed to plains, with rainforests removed (but added instead in a tile SE to keep blocking passage, assuming that is desirable). Bamboo forests added in some empty tiles, and rainforest on western Jade changed into a regular forests (it looked slightly odd with the palm trees climbing up around the snowy mountain tops IMO).

    Resources:

    Rubies: Changed the placed gems to specifically rubies. Burma has been a world-leading producer of some of the finest in the world.

    Opium: Golden Triangle opium added near Kachin State, close to Laos border and near the mountains of northern Thailand. Can spawn sometime in the 19th century. The number and exact locations can vary from this, of course.

    Indochina, etc:

    Spoiler Indochina :
    indochina.jpg


    Terrain: Added some savanna to the relatively drier and more open inner parts of Indochina. The coastal mountains of Vietnam looked a bit too barren IMO (very humid and heavily forested in reality), so I added some forests with bamboo there. Could be rainforests, of course.

    Resources:

    Sapphires: Added to Pailin-Chanthaburi area (famous for gemstone mining and trading).

    Coffee: Has been grown in Vietnam since around 1860. Nowadays Vietnam is the second largest producer in the world after Brazil, so it could make sense to spawn a couple. On the other hand, AFAIK the huge output has occured only in the last few decades, so a single might be enough.

    Rubber: Can be spawned in Vietnam (the marked location is close to the large former Michelin plantation), Thailand and the Malay peninsula in the early 20th century.
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Thanks. Resources that spawn later are deliberately left out from the map, it is supposed to represent the 3000 BC situation, but this is a useful reference for later.
     
  4. stormogulen

    stormogulen Chieftain

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    Ok, I have put some work into researching the mineral resources of central and southern Africa. I didn't consider gameplay and relevant city placements too much, and there are probably too many to include everything (in particular, there's probably too many gems). Not really sure how to best present everything, but anyway the suggested resources are numbered going from south to north and west to east.

    Spoiler Southern Africa :
    SA.jpg

    Copper1: Represents the Okiep copper mine of South Africa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okiep
    Diamonds1: Sperrgebiet diamond mining area of Namibia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperrgebiet
    Copper -> Gold: Considering the huge reserves and historical output of gold in South Africa, there could be two gold resources there IMO.
    Aluminium1: Aluminium smelters at Richards Bay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richards_Bay#Economy
    Aluminium2: Mozal aluminium smelter (I guess one of the suggested aluminiums in this area is enough): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_industry_of_Mozambique#Aluminium
    Diamonds2: Represents various huge diamond mines in Botswana such as Jwaneng and Orapa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jwaneng_diamond_mine, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orapa_diamond_mine
    Copper2: Tsumeb and Tschudi copper mines (not really important): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsumeb#The_town_and_the_Tsumeb_mine
    Rare Earths: Bikita lithium mine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bikita_mine
    Copper -> Coal: Tete province coal in Mozambique: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tete_Province#Coal_reserves


    Spoiler Central Africa :
    CA.jpg

    Iron1: Cassinga iron mine in Angola. Iron ore was an important export product of Angola during parts of the 20th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Angola#Iron_ore
    Silver -> Rubies: Montepuez Ruby Mine in Mozambique. One of the largest in the world, although the deposits were only found recently: https://www.mining-technology.com/features/gemstone-mining-map-2/
    Copper3: Copper added near the very mineral-rich Copperbelt area of Zambia and adjacent parts of Kongo-Kinshasa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copperbelt
    Emeralds: Kagem emerald mine of Zambia, producing a significant part of current emerald supply: https://www.gemfieldsgroup.com/assets/kagem-mining-limited-emerald-mines/
    Diamonds3: Diamonds of Northeastern Angola: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_industry_of_Angola#Diamonds
    Uranium1: Moved a bit south to better represent the Shinkolobwe mine which supplied the Manhattan Project: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinkolobwe
    Copper4: Another Copperbelt copper
    Diamonds4: Diamonds of Congo-Kinshasa. Reference on its mineral resources I used: https://mondediplo.com/maps/congo2006
    Diamonds5: Williamson diamond mine in Tanzania: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williamson_diamond_mine
    Gold1: There are loads of gold mines south of Lake Victoria, including some of Tanzania's oldest like Kirondatal and Sekenke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirondatal_Gold_Mine, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sekenke_Gold_Mine
    Diamonds6: Another Congo-Kinshasa diamond.
    Iron2: Represents the large (but mostly unexploited) reserves of Gabon and Cameroon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Gabon#Iron
    Copper5: Kilembe copper mines of Uganda (not really important): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilembe_Mines
    Gold2: Northeastern Congo-Kinshasa gold: (see map at Diamonds4)
    Aluminium3: Bauxite reserves of Cameroon (again unexploited): https://www.businessincameroon.com/...be-the-number-one-african-producer-of-bauxite

    Regarding the suggested removed resources, most can be considered replaced by resources I placed. Currently (not really sure about historically), the silver output of Africa is miniscule except for Morocco's, so I don't really think there should be any in Sub-Saharan Africa. Hence why I removed both without replacing them.
     
  5. Steb

    Steb King

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    Recently, I wondered: just what is incense, actually?

    It turns out incense is many things, but the most important component can be a number of different aromatic flammable materials. In the Middle East and Europe, this is usually either frankincense or myrrh, both of which come from a set of related plants that grow mostly in the Horn of Africa and southern Arabia. The main plant that produces frankincense, Boswellia sacra, grows especially in Somalia and Oman. There is also a species of Boswellia that grows in India.

    Incense is also a big thing in China and Japan, where it is made from two types of tropical trees: agarwood and sandalwood. Interestingly, however, these trees do not grow in Japan or China (except perhaps the very south of China). The main species of sandalwood, Santalum album, is native to SE Asia and India. All agarwood species are native to SE Asia. Chinese incense can use other ingredients, including frankincense, which was imported all the way from Arabia even during antiquity. Thus, similarly to spices in Europe, incense in East Asia is an imported luxury.

    The main producer and exported of incense today is India. It seems Indian incense is made from a variety of ingredients, including sandalwood, frankincense and myrrh, and that most of these ingredients are produced locally. Tibet also has a rich tradition of burning incense, using diverse ingredients that are also locally produced in many cases, from what little I can find.

    I didn't find any references to incense use or production as part of Persian or Iranian culture (or Zoroastrian practice, except for the fact that Zoroastrians like to burn sandalwood in their sacred fires). This came as a surprise, since the small map has two incense resources in Iran, and the Zoroastrian URV requires 6 incense resources. Unless someone can point to a source about Persian incense, I think these are unwarranted.

    So what does this all mean for the map?

    From what I can see, we currently have incense in the following areas: Somalia, southern Ethiopia, Sudan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia near Mecca, central Iran, coastal Pakistan, Thar desert in India, Tibet (2), northern China (2), and southern Japan. Hopefully I haven't missed any. Almost all of them are in dry areas, probably intended to represent frankincense and myrrh.

    Based on my research, I think we should:
    • Remove the incense in Iran, Pakistan, China, and Japan.
    • Give additional incense to Somalia (including the Somali region of Ethiopia). It has been a major supplier of frankincense and myrrh since Ancient Egyptian times, and still is. I think 3 copies would not be too much; 2 would be a minimum. They could be new copies, or we could move the Ethiopian and Sudanese copies. The Egyptians should have to reach further south to get the incense they need for their mummies!
    • Give one incense to Oman, which is the origin of Boswellia sacra. Either move the Mecca or Yemen incense here, or simply add a copy.
    • Give additional incense to India, so they can export it and recreate the eastern part of the incense route. The incense in the desert can stay, representing frankincense. But I think they should get 2-3 more copies in coastal forest areas, representing sandalwood.
    • Give incense to SE Asia, which currently has none. I'm not sure how many and where exactly, but I've seen Cambodia, Vietnam, Indonesia cited as important sources of agarwood for Chinese and Japanese incense. I think there should be 3-4 copies that could occur anywhere from Assam to Papua New Guinea.
    • Give one incense to Western Australia, which has a few native species of sandalwood that have been exploited since colonization. Especially interesting, since this area isn't very resource-rich.
    • Let Tibet keep its two copies, but if there's too much incense on the map, one of them could be removed.
    The current incense graphics most likely represents the arid Boswellia plant. It would be interesting to have a different resource variety for sandalwood and agarwood in the tropical areas, but it's not a big deal if we don't have one.
     
    ozqar, stormogulen, 1SDAN and 7 others like this.
  6. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Thank you for researching this. I assume incense was added with the intention of representing Middle Eastern incense and have a desert base luxury resource. We have to keep in mind that tropical regions already have lots of other resources to represent and benefit from.
     
  7. Steb

    Steb King

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    That's true. But then, even if we don't want to add new incense resources to tropical Asia, I think there is still a good case of removing incense from China, Japan and Iran, and increase the number of copies in the Horn of Africa, Arabia and possibly India.
     
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  8. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Sure, I just wanted to bring up that concern as well. Although I am pretty sure I researched all the resource locations for Japan in particular and there must have been a good reason for its incense or I would've already removed it.
     
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  9. Publicola

    Publicola Prince

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    I agree incense should mostly be limited to desert tiles, but it would be really interesting to go for a forest-only variant representing sandalwood & agarwood (and other resinous woods). There are a bunch of 'resin' and 'fine wood' assets in Cavemen2Cosmos (or 'lumber' in RFCE) that we might borrow for the purpose, though I don't know what improvement would best represent the extraction sites (plantation? orchard?)
     
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  10. stormogulen

    stormogulen Chieftain

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    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
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  11. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    In addition to the species you mentioned, in Mesoamerica, copal is used as incense. The tree it's taken from also grows in tropical rainforests, in southern Mexico and northern Central America. Really cool insight you found into the trade aspects of incense in Asia, I had never thought of that!
     
  12. Steb

    Steb King

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    Indeed, and there is in fact an incense resource in southern Mexico that I didn't notice. It does represent something real, so it can stay; but if we want to recast incense as mostly frankincense/myrrh, I think the Mesoamerican incense can be removed. There is already almost an excess of luxury resources in the area.

    Regarding Japan, there is a whole Wikipedia page on Japanese incense, and it is pretty clear that the materials came from SE Asia.

    In general, it is likely that most cultures used to burn local fragrant materials that can be interpreted as 'incense'. Thus you could probably argue for the presence of an incense resource virtually anywhere. The same is true of spices: almost all cuisines have used local flavorful plants that you could call 'spices', but instead the resource represents the rarer luxury substances that became valuable as trade commodities. Let's do that with incense.
     
  13. Krieger-FS

    Krieger-FS Chieftain

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    Just a small change in Argentine Mesopotamia that I suggested in the City Name Suggestion thread:

    Spoiler :

    Civ4ScreenShot0025.JPG


    Changed location of Marsh feature (Iberá wetlands) 1E while maintaning the Marsh terrain and removed the southern one, also moving the Tea resource. The reason is to allow the founding of Corrientes in the correct place, a city of historical importance (founded in 16th century) in the Argentine Mesopotamia.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
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  14. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Looking at Anatolia, the Kizilirmak/Halys river seems a little wrong, compare:



    With:



    Looks like it stretch further east, and maybe less to the south.
     
  15. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Likewise, the course of the Karun could also get a minor correction:

     
  16. Steb

    Steb King

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    Agreed. It looks like the Kizilirmak's mouth should be 1SE?

    As to the Karun, I think it needs a major correction. The marsh tile needs to be between the Tigris and the Karun, and the Karun should not flow into the Tigris before it merges with the Euphrates. Also it should follow a north-south axis rather than east-west, I guess. So something like this? Not sure about the most upstream segment.
    upload_2020-1-23_18-6-27.jpeg
     
  17. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    I thought that too.

    Yeah, that looks right. I didn't envision it going that far north, but it works like this too.
     
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  18. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Also I noticed that Libya has zero oil sources, I think it should have at least two:

     
  19. stormogulen

    stormogulen Chieftain

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    A few suggestions on locations for additional pearl resources:

    Spoiler Pearl locations :
    pearls.jpg


    -One near Bahrain, the historical #1 center for pearling in the Persian Gulf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahrain_Pearling_Trail#Historic_Significance)
    -Another near Julfar (today Ras Al Khaimah), another important historical pearling center in the area
    -One near the Dahlak Archipelago and Farasan Islands in the Red Sea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahlak_Archipelago)

    Furthermore, there should probably be a pearl resource or two somewhere along the northwestern coast of Australia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearling_in_Western_Australia). It would also make sense to have one at Baja California (https://www.mexconnect.com/articles...o-was-once-the-world-s-major-source-of-pearls).
     
  20. Steb

    Steb King

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    I have a question regarding China and, to a lesser extent, European Russia: is there any reason we observe in these regions—and nowhere else—a patchwork pattern of grassland and plains tiles? Have the locations of these tiles been based on research? Are there drier microclimates in the middle of China that justify having plains surrounded by grasslands?

    I'm asking because I find these patterns confusing, when other regions of the world seem to have usually larger areas of a single terrain type. I do wonder if this was done just to provide a more textured map, in which case I would recommend reworking the area to have mostly just grasslands in the humid southeast of China, with a smoother transition to the drier regions.

    Russia is less bizarre, but there are puzzling occurrences of plains tiles such as those NE of St. Petersburg.
     

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