True, but Brazil itself should probably be subject to distortion to reflect the significance of the coast (especially in the southeast) over the Amazon rainforest.
[Development] Map Suggestions
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
Krieger-FS
Warlord
So a second atempt of Venezuela bellow, with some of the changes proposed:
The llanos are expanded and also the Venezuela gulf, giving more space for Venezuela and allowing a more detailed border with Colombia. I didn't change the borders with the Guinas because I felt they would become too enlarged, but we could try if you want.
Edit: I realized just now that the Orinoco have to be extended 1W, as it goes to the Colombian-Venezuelan border.
Edit2: map with Orinoco adjustment.
Spoiler :
The llanos are expanded and also the Venezuela gulf, giving more space for Venezuela and allowing a more detailed border with Colombia. I didn't change the borders with the Guinas because I felt they would become too enlarged, but we could try if you want.
Edit: I realized just now that the Orinoco have to be extended 1W, as it goes to the Colombian-Venezuelan border.
Edit2: map with Orinoco adjustment.
Last edited:
ozqar
King
I think it's looking better! Thanks for continuing to look at it. I'm not sure about the shape of the mountain ranges in the south though. Looking at relief maps, something like 1S of cows, 1SE of cows, 2S2E of cows and 3S1E of cows looks more accurate; and the western mountain on the Brazilian side of the border could be moved 1N. I'm not sure if that shape would look too artificial though (Many diagonals). Anyway, you might also leave them as they are, it's not a big difference.
Also, I don't know if we want a third canonical city, but moving Maracaibo 1W (to the mountain tile) would allow Barquisemeto either 1E or 1SE of current Maracaibo (for the latter case, the mountain there could be moved south in turn, to the horse tile). Alternatively, Guayana city could be placed in the eastern oil tile. I think Barquisemeto might be the more historical choice though!
Also, I don't know if we want a third canonical city, but moving Maracaibo 1W (to the mountain tile) would allow Barquisemeto either 1E or 1SE of current Maracaibo (for the latter case, the mountain there could be moved south in turn, to the horse tile). Alternatively, Guayana city could be placed in the eastern oil tile. I think Barquisemeto might be the more historical choice though!
Krieger-FS
Warlord
I've revised the mountain range shape with ozqar suggestions and I think the results are quite good. I also added some hills near, made the llanos in Colombia more flat and revised the Orinoco basin, adding the important tributaries (from north to south) Meta and Guaviare rivers.
About the suggestion of the third canonical Venezuelan city, I would be against moving Maracaibo west because it would overlap with the canonical and probably more historically important Cartagena in Colombia. In this case, I'd stick with Guayana city, possibly placed 1S of the western oil. Although the eastern oil would be the most accurate position, the city is in the confluence of Caroní and Orinoco rivers, which is in this title considering the distortions in Orinoco course.
Spoiler :
About the suggestion of the third canonical Venezuelan city, I would be against moving Maracaibo west because it would overlap with the canonical and probably more historically important Cartagena in Colombia. In this case, I'd stick with Guayana city, possibly placed 1S of the western oil. Although the eastern oil would be the most accurate position, the city is in the confluence of Caroní and Orinoco rivers, which is in this title considering the distortions in Orinoco course.
Attachments
Looks good. Though I'd say Maracaibo could maybe use more food? Perhaps we could move the Eastern oil if we want to add Guayana City as a third canonical. I'm still wondering if that double oil will make the cut. It seems unprecedented to have two of the same resource beside one another.
Edit: Actually yeah looking at the map of reserves I'd say the two oil resources could be shifted 1W
Edit: Actually yeah looking at the map of reserves I'd say the two oil resources could be shifted 1W
Tab911
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2019
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- 58
South America is looking fantastic, really great work. The Maracaibo lagoon had me thinking about North America so I got an idea to spitball.
New York as a lagoon tile.
We’ve gone back and forth about the location of NYC, west/east of the Hudson, I’m thinking we just drop a lagoon in the New York harbor and put the city there.
The case for New York lagoon:
-Allows canonical placement of east coast cities(no more NY in Jersey, no more Boston in Maine).
-Difficult to conquer. During the American revolution (happy 4th) the British were able to hold New York and use it as their main base of operations. A British player with a strong navy may be able to hold the city if refusing to let America flip.
-Access to wide harbor. New York is an absolutely massive city and placing it in water allows access to more seafood resources for size while keeping inland tiles clear for cottages.
-Looks appropriate. For two reasons: Manhattan is built to the edges and surrounded by water similar to a city on a lagoon. Also allows for the east coast map shape to look appropriate, no need to add any land tiles.
The only issue I’m concerned with is where production will come from. New York has a handful of wonders it’s supposed to build and I think it needs at least two production resources to really take off. I’m thinking copper in Pennsylvania and perhaps horses in central New York.
It should have clams and fish initially with cows and crab spawning in 1825. This was the date the Erie Canal was built and it allowed New York to grow huge by trading for midwestern grain.
The only other resource is sea amber off of Jersey, all other tiles are ideal for towns and villages.
New York as a lagoon tile.
We’ve gone back and forth about the location of NYC, west/east of the Hudson, I’m thinking we just drop a lagoon in the New York harbor and put the city there.
The case for New York lagoon:
-Allows canonical placement of east coast cities(no more NY in Jersey, no more Boston in Maine).
-Difficult to conquer. During the American revolution (happy 4th) the British were able to hold New York and use it as their main base of operations. A British player with a strong navy may be able to hold the city if refusing to let America flip.
-Access to wide harbor. New York is an absolutely massive city and placing it in water allows access to more seafood resources for size while keeping inland tiles clear for cottages.
-Looks appropriate. For two reasons: Manhattan is built to the edges and surrounded by water similar to a city on a lagoon. Also allows for the east coast map shape to look appropriate, no need to add any land tiles.
The only issue I’m concerned with is where production will come from. New York has a handful of wonders it’s supposed to build and I think it needs at least two production resources to really take off. I’m thinking copper in Pennsylvania and perhaps horses in central New York.
It should have clams and fish initially with cows and crab spawning in 1825. This was the date the Erie Canal was built and it allowed New York to grow huge by trading for midwestern grain.
The only other resource is sea amber off of Jersey, all other tiles are ideal for towns and villages.
MechatronicJazz
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2007
- Messages
- 316
Interesting idea, but I don't think a lagoon matches the geography of NY. I think you're right that it will look pretty good once the city is founded, but wouldn't it look odd before then?
I tested it out and it's definitely a bit odd with the Hudson River, since a delta doesn't match with a lagoon you have to extend it 1S which leaves a slight land border between the river and the lagoon. I guess alternatively you could do the Hudson doing an L-shape extending EDIT: 1E from its current outflow. But you'd have a similar thin land border between the river and the lagoon but that could represent long island and long island sound?
As far as resource concerns go I think there isn't much production resource for New York whether it's in the correct position, the Jersey position or the lagoon position. There is one iron that is in the radius of DC as well so you're already negotiating which city gets the hammers.
All this said, I see a NYC lagoon like a HK lagoon. Great idea in theory but perhaps not practical/workable.
Last edited:
stormogulen
Chieftain
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- Jul 6, 2019
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- 65
I have some suggestions on Scandinavia. As a starting point I took the post by Tab911 earlier in the thread (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/development-map-suggestions.632861/page-29#post-15483384) where many good suggestions were made.
First, some suggestions on terrain changes:
-The red areas on the map are moorlands. Compared to the earlier suggestion I added more to Norway and the middle of Sweden. Moorland looks awesome IMO, and is great for Scandinavia!
-Added three forests to southern Norway (marked by yellow). The southern parts are the most heavily forested areas of Norway in reality, and together with the Trondheim area make up the places in Norway where forests have commercial importance.
-Removed some forests from Norway (white areas). As a reference on Norwegian forests I link this: http://www.borealforest.org/world/world_norway.htm
-Added island feature east of Kalmar representing Öland.
Second, resource placement. I may have gone overboard, but of course not everything has to be included.
Denmark:
Horse (2W of Köpenhamn): Represents the Jutland horse. Early versions of this breed may have been used by viking raiders in Britain in the 9th century. During the middle ages they were popular as war horses and exported to the continent. Also good work horses.
Pig: The modern pig industry in Denmark is very large. Can be a late spawn to give extra population in Denmark.
Cow: Already placed.
Amber: Already placed
Sweden:
Iron (2W of Stockholm): Represents the Bergslagen area, which has substantial amounts of iron ore, and has been the heartland of Swedish industry throughout history.
Copper (1N2W of Stockholm): Already placed. This represents the famous Falun mine.
Wheat (1S1W of Stockholm): This can be a late spawn to increase population. This area has some quite good spots for agriculture (by Swedish measures), and wheat is grown here modern times.
Stone (2S1E of Stockholm): Both Öland and Gotland have easily available stone. Stone from Öland was exported to the Baltics during the middle ages for the castles of the Teutonic order. May also be nice if one wants to build a castle in Kalmar.
Sugar (On Malmö): Possible late spawn (mid-late 19th century or so) to represent sugar beet production in Scania and Denmark.
Deer (2N1W of Stockholm): Already placed.
Fur (3N of Göteborg): This area is unusually rich in wild animals usable for fur.
Rare earth (1E of Sundsvall): Represents findings from the Alnö complex, which seems to have high concentrations. Of course, there are also other places where rare earths could hypothetically be placed.
Potatoes (1W of Luleå): Potatoes are one of the few crops that can be grown this far north. Can be spawned in the 19th century to give some population growth and enable working on the forests/iron.
Fur: (1N1W of Luleå) Already placed.
Iron (1N2W of Luleå): This area has huge amounts of iron ore. Mining started here in the 18th century IIRC, but transportation was very difficult. It didn't start to really get going until the beginning of the 20th century when railroads were built to Narvik and Luleå, from where it was then shipped further. Since then, it is the dominant source of iron in Sweden.
Norway:
Silver (1N of Oslo): Already placed. Represents the Kongsberg mines which were opened in 1623. I can't find anything on silver mining in Norway prior to that.
Sheep (1S1W of Oslo): Moved so that they are not reachable from Göteborg, which preferably shouldn't be super attractive early on IMO.
Fish (all three): Norway is a huge fishing nation, and its Atlantic coast is extremely good for fishing.
Aluminium (both): Norway doesn't mine bauxite, but makes aluminium from it using hydroelectricity. It is one of the largest producers in the world. These areas seem about correct for some of the industries.
Horse (2N1E of Bergen): Represents the Fjord horse, a very old breed and favoured by the vikings both as a workhorse and war horse.
Oil/whales: Already placed by Tab911.
Fur (2N1W of Oslo): Already placed.
Finland:
Cow: Replaces horse.
Deer: Already placed.
Copper: Represents the Outokumpu mine, which opened in the beginning of the 20th century. I think it's better to have this than to replace it by a swamp, as Tab911 suggested.
Gold: Finnish Lapland has several large gold mines, and Finland has recently been the number 1 gold producer in the EU. Exploration started in 1868, but it is only in the last few decades it really got going. So maybe not so relevant. https://investingnews.com/daily/res...-investing/gold-mining-in-finland-is-booming/
Iceland (not pictured):
Added aluminium. Iceland produces significant amounts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_aluminium_production
Finally, as core area for the vikings I suggest to use something like this:
First, some suggestions on terrain changes:
Spoiler Terrain :
-The red areas on the map are moorlands. Compared to the earlier suggestion I added more to Norway and the middle of Sweden. Moorland looks awesome IMO, and is great for Scandinavia!
-Added three forests to southern Norway (marked by yellow). The southern parts are the most heavily forested areas of Norway in reality, and together with the Trondheim area make up the places in Norway where forests have commercial importance.
-Removed some forests from Norway (white areas). As a reference on Norwegian forests I link this: http://www.borealforest.org/world/world_norway.htm
-Added island feature east of Kalmar representing Öland.
Second, resource placement. I may have gone overboard, but of course not everything has to be included.
Spoiler Resources :
Denmark:
Horse (2W of Köpenhamn): Represents the Jutland horse. Early versions of this breed may have been used by viking raiders in Britain in the 9th century. During the middle ages they were popular as war horses and exported to the continent. Also good work horses.
Pig: The modern pig industry in Denmark is very large. Can be a late spawn to give extra population in Denmark.
Cow: Already placed.
Amber: Already placed
Sweden:
Iron (2W of Stockholm): Represents the Bergslagen area, which has substantial amounts of iron ore, and has been the heartland of Swedish industry throughout history.
Copper (1N2W of Stockholm): Already placed. This represents the famous Falun mine.
Wheat (1S1W of Stockholm): This can be a late spawn to increase population. This area has some quite good spots for agriculture (by Swedish measures), and wheat is grown here modern times.
Stone (2S1E of Stockholm): Both Öland and Gotland have easily available stone. Stone from Öland was exported to the Baltics during the middle ages for the castles of the Teutonic order. May also be nice if one wants to build a castle in Kalmar.
Sugar (On Malmö): Possible late spawn (mid-late 19th century or so) to represent sugar beet production in Scania and Denmark.
Deer (2N1W of Stockholm): Already placed.
Fur (3N of Göteborg): This area is unusually rich in wild animals usable for fur.
Rare earth (1E of Sundsvall): Represents findings from the Alnö complex, which seems to have high concentrations. Of course, there are also other places where rare earths could hypothetically be placed.
Potatoes (1W of Luleå): Potatoes are one of the few crops that can be grown this far north. Can be spawned in the 19th century to give some population growth and enable working on the forests/iron.
Fur: (1N1W of Luleå) Already placed.
Iron (1N2W of Luleå): This area has huge amounts of iron ore. Mining started here in the 18th century IIRC, but transportation was very difficult. It didn't start to really get going until the beginning of the 20th century when railroads were built to Narvik and Luleå, from where it was then shipped further. Since then, it is the dominant source of iron in Sweden.
Norway:
Silver (1N of Oslo): Already placed. Represents the Kongsberg mines which were opened in 1623. I can't find anything on silver mining in Norway prior to that.
Sheep (1S1W of Oslo): Moved so that they are not reachable from Göteborg, which preferably shouldn't be super attractive early on IMO.
Fish (all three): Norway is a huge fishing nation, and its Atlantic coast is extremely good for fishing.
Aluminium (both): Norway doesn't mine bauxite, but makes aluminium from it using hydroelectricity. It is one of the largest producers in the world. These areas seem about correct for some of the industries.
Horse (2N1E of Bergen): Represents the Fjord horse, a very old breed and favoured by the vikings both as a workhorse and war horse.
Oil/whales: Already placed by Tab911.
Fur (2N1W of Oslo): Already placed.
Finland:
Cow: Replaces horse.
Deer: Already placed.
Copper: Represents the Outokumpu mine, which opened in the beginning of the 20th century. I think it's better to have this than to replace it by a swamp, as Tab911 suggested.
Gold: Finnish Lapland has several large gold mines, and Finland has recently been the number 1 gold producer in the EU. Exploration started in 1868, but it is only in the last few decades it really got going. So maybe not so relevant. https://investingnews.com/daily/res...-investing/gold-mining-in-finland-is-booming/
Iceland (not pictured):
Added aluminium. Iceland produces significant amounts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_aluminium_production
Finally, as core area for the vikings I suggest to use something like this:
Spoiler Core area :
Jarlaxe Baenre
Emperor
Also, Gotland ought to be core, I think.
1SDANi
The Fading Memory
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2014
- Messages
- 3,103
With that resource layout I would never settle Oslo. I can reach every resource it can with Bergen Trondheim Kopenhagen and Stockholm
stormogulen
Chieftain
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- Jul 6, 2019
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There is one near Lithuania/Königsberg I think. Do you have any suggestions? I'm not sure Stockholm needs one - it's not really a fishing city and not that large historically. Harbor-enhanced coast and lake should be enough for it, I think.
The fishing city of Sweden would be Göteborg, but I thought that area already had decent amounts of food. Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, I don't really want to encourage early settlement of that city.
That could be ok. Didn't really think of it.
Perhaps the silver should be moved slightly so it's not reachable from Trondheim? There could be a fish south of Oslo too, but as I've said many times I don't want to make an early Göteborg too attractive (maybe I overstate the risk?). Edit: The fur can also be moved 1S of course. Further edit: And we could of course place a fish 1S of the sheep.
BTW, Bergen was the largest Scandinavian city in the 16th and 17th centuries and larger than Oslo until 1830 or so (all according to Swedish wikipedia). Also a very important maritime city. I don't think it's wrong to emphasize it.
Last edited:
stormogulen
Chieftain
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BTW, the Kongsberg silver mine was west of Oslo in reality, not north. Thought I had checked that, but apparently not (or maybe I lost the change in the editing process).
AtlantaMarty
No longer active
I was reading these posts about Levantine city placement, and it made me realize this.
There are at least 4 cities that are essential, preferably 5. Those are: Jerusalem, Damascus, Tyre, Antioch (and optionally Aleppo/Edessa)
Since we have enlarged Europe and Japan for better gameplay, why not the Levant, which was equally historically important and is, like Europe, chock full of civilizations.
Therefore, I propose shifting the entire continent of Africa 1S (since there is nothing south of it by ocean, there are no negative effects to doing this) in order to give the Levant 1 more row of tiles, to allow the main cities to coexist with less crowding, and to make room for Aleppo.
There are at least 4 cities that are essential, preferably 5. Those are: Jerusalem, Damascus, Tyre, Antioch (and optionally Aleppo/Edessa)
Since we have enlarged Europe and Japan for better gameplay, why not the Levant, which was equally historically important and is, like Europe, chock full of civilizations.
Therefore, I propose shifting the entire continent of Africa 1S (since there is nothing south of it by ocean, there are no negative effects to doing this) in order to give the Levant 1 more row of tiles, to allow the main cities to coexist with less crowding, and to make room for Aleppo.
1SDANi
The Fading Memory
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2014
- Messages
- 3,103
Similarity to the Konigsberg meme aside.
This is an interesting idea. There's a large amount of nations already in the game that interact with the Levant in history or gameplay:
Babylonia, Egypt, Greece, Phoenecia, Persia, Rome, The Byzantines, Islamic Egyptian Respawn, Arabia, The Turks, The Ottomans, Holy Rome, and IIRC Iran.
One tile North-South won't give you Jerusalem, Damascus, Tyre, Antioch and Aleppo. It won't even give you 4 out of 5. If 3 out of 5 of those are present my assumption is that Tyre/Damascus Antioch/Aleppo will more likely depend on what time period you load into... however that will work without scenario files.
ozqar
King
I agree that the Middle East should have larger proportions than other regions, however I also think that it's fine for this region in particular to have cities very close together (like in real life). Would it be a possibility for cities to be founded next to each other?
stormogulen
Chieftain
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Alright, I made some small changes to my proposal for Scandinavia.
-Moved Norwegian silver to 1W of Oslo to better reflect the proper location of Kongsberg.
-Added crab 1W of Göteborg. I actually realized that my antipathy towards an early Göteborg really made absolutely no historical sense at all, considering two of Sweden's earliest cities were located in the area (Lödöse and Skara). Also makes Oslo a bit more attractive.
-Moved mid-Swedish fur to 2E of Oslo.
-Moved sheep to 1SE of Oslo.
-Added fish 2S1E of Kalmar.
-Added peak 1N2E of Trondheim to reflect the fact that the coast of Norway is extremely hard to travel by land.
Spoiler :
-Moved Norwegian silver to 1W of Oslo to better reflect the proper location of Kongsberg.
-Added crab 1W of Göteborg. I actually realized that my antipathy towards an early Göteborg really made absolutely no historical sense at all, considering two of Sweden's earliest cities were located in the area (Lödöse and Skara). Also makes Oslo a bit more attractive.
-Moved mid-Swedish fur to 2E of Oslo.
-Moved sheep to 1SE of Oslo.
-Added fish 2S1E of Kalmar.
-Added peak 1N2E of Trondheim to reflect the fact that the coast of Norway is extremely hard to travel by land.
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