[Development] Map Suggestions

[stormogulen]

Now, some further attempts on Scandinavia (mostly terrain changes):

Spoiler :

-Removed the sheep. Of course there are many other resources in my proposal that can easily be removed as well (I know I put too many), but I won't make any detailed suggestions on that (the suggestions made by others above all seem very reasonable).
-Added taiga (red areas). Of course, Finland should probably have lots of taiga too, but I didn't mark that here. BTW, maybe some of the Swedish marshes would be nicer as moorland hills + taiga?
-Added two more grassland tiles in Finland (blue areas).
-Added two island features in the north of Norway (yellow area) to represent the archipelagos Lofoten and Vesterålen, as well as the island Senja, etc. The fish is moved 2E so that it's not on an island.
-Replaced some coast by arctic coast in the northern Baltic sea (white area). This area isn't all that great for fishing (and actually frozen almost half the year). When I tried to research historical fishing in the area I mostly found information on some salmon fishing in the river mouths. Also, this limits the growth potential of cities in the area, which seems reasonable.
-Sundsvall should maybe really be 1SW of its marked location, as Steb suggests.
-I think that the path between Sweden and Norway 1NW of the marked Sundsvall should probably be blocked by a peak (as you can see, this is not marked on the map though).

As a side note, it seems strange that there is so little forest in Estonia and Latvia on the map. In reality, there's lots:
https://gabrielhemery.com/european-countries-and-their-forest-cover/
https://www.efi.int/knowledge/maps/forest

 

[Tab911]

Looks great, I've a couple of further suggestions. Many have rightly suggested that our proposals are a bit too food dense, which is fair considering one of the primary reasons Vikings sailed and plundered was the search of food. The addition of Moorland and arctic coast is a great way to still have food resources and make certain city placements compelling while also preventing them from growing too large. I like how you extended the Moorland further south in Sweden and Norway and I suggest changing the highlighted blue tiles in Finland back, the attached image is my justification why. The proper vegetation zone is really just that southern shelf and it actually looks quite nice as it transitions into tundra. Now granted, this further limits Finland's food but I think the Finnhorse should be put back, replacing the cow as production is more needed than food. This keeps Helsinki small until it can build a harbor but the stunted growth is fitting when playing a Scandinavian civilization.
I think Stockholm is actually good without the wheat. I had sheep for Oslo in my proposal but upon thinking about it, the food from grassland hill tiles is good enough to represent the roaming goats and sheep of Norway. The same might apply for Stockholm to limit its overall size early on by giving it one deer and grassland to build regular farms. I think Potato should spawn where the wheat is in 1650 because its a better cold-weather crop, is more important in the Scandinavian diet and allows Stockholm to be of greater importance around the time of the Swedish empire's rise.
Speaking of the Scandinavian diet, why crab off of Goteborg? I think the addition of a sea-based food resource is a good idea and I like the placement only I am not familiar with a significant presence of shellfish in the Scandinavian diet. Fish would be better as it provides a food resource but also reflects the lack of food diversity in Scandinavia. My distant family was from Norway, the cuisine is some variety of fish and potatoes every night.
Overall, resources look pretty good, I think others may have qualms about three stables for Denmark but I think it's quite accurate. The addition of the Finnhorse makes a total of three which is perhaps too many as Scandinavia was never a big exporter of horses. Since Denmark and Finland need the production the most that would mean removing the one in Bergen. I know it represents the Fjord horse so we'll have to pick and choose but I think three is too many. The other one that is too plentiful is fur. Right now we have four, I suggest keeping the tundra ones as it incentivizes settlement. Thus we should eliminate one of the two remaining, probably keep the one off Bergen/Oslo since we stole their horses. Given that the fur in upper Finland will almost certainly be settled later on, if at all, the mix of one in Lulea and one off Bergen/Oslo is adequate. Those lazy French will have to settle North America if they want to be a fur-trading power now.

I'm loving the way the map is coming along. In regards to other portions of it, what could use more work?

 

[Leoreth]

Now that you're talking about it, while I think the area is quite accurate geographically nobody has ever reviewed Germany and Poland yet, especially in terms of resources.

Otherwise, Siberia? I'm still hoping @Finbros will come back an finish his series on the region but another look might help in the meantime.

Nobody ever gave the Arctic and Antarctica a review either if we want to be perfectionist.

 

[merijn_v1]

Arctica: snow and ice.

Antartica: even more snow and ice.

 

[Tab911]

I'll do a pass at western and central Europe next. Can use time at work for research and I'll make edits when I get home and try to have it posted tonight. I'll make very light edits on England France and Iberia while the bulk of my research and detail will be for the Low Countries, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Belarus and the former Czechoslovakia.
As for the polar ice caps, I'll do what everyone else is doing and neglect them as they melt into the sea.

 

[stormogulen]

The west Swedish crab could be a fish for sure (herring fishing is big there), but I like the variety with shellfish there, and I certainly don't think it's wrong: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9a83wa/in-search-of-west-swedens-big-five-of-seafood

Also, crayfish have huge cultural significance in Sweden: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crayfish_party

 

[Leoreth]

As for the polar ice caps, I'll do what everyone else is doing and neglect them as they melt into the sea.

Maybe we should make a 2050 scenario to save us the trouble.

 

[Vectors]

Could Scandinavia start with terrible terrain to begin with and gradually get moderately better to simulate historic climate change?

 

[Leoreth]

I am reluctant to model historic climate change just for the sake of it because it can be quite the rabbit hole and may be immersion breaking when it is inconsistently applied.

I'm not opposed to it on principle but the impact on Scandinavia is very limited considering no civ is there before it is complete.

 

[stormogulen]

Actually, the trend from the starting date of the mod until a few decades ago was that Scandinavia gradually got colder, not warmer.

 

[Tab911]

Spoiler New York :

By some miracle the Babylonians have settled Shuruppak, a legendary east-coast city. I took the chance to test out how a New York lagoon would look.
Light green are resource changes. I know that the NY lagoon idea is radical but the resource changes are a hill I will die on. First replaced fish off Boston with crab, representing famous New England lobster. Shellfish are a prominent feature of New England and thus they absolutely must have crab. Next is New York's harbor: whale for Nantucket whaling (Moby Dick, anyone?), fish and clam to provide food and even out the rich variety of seafood on the east coast. Finally crab off of Washington DC replacing clam. It has to be crabs in the Chesapeake bay, people from Maryland have a disturbing obsession with them.

Spoiler Maryland crabs :

Car stickers. stuffed animals, state flags, gas tanks in Baltimore, the world of Maryland revolves around crab so it's gotta be crab. With the addition of crabs, the Charleston one should be changed to fish or clam too.
Finally, cow in upstate New York as its a big dairy hub. I don't feel super strongly about this one, just wanted to provide more food for NY.. er Shuruppak. If we go with the lagoon idea, copper and some other production resource (horse or iron) ought to be moved into the NY BFC. All in all, I actually like the way the lagoon looks once settled. Sure it looks weird without a city but the bare tile will not be seen in most games as New York is an essential city and one that is typically settled early.

Now then, across the pond:

Spoiler England :

Extended moorland to Scottish highlands, all red tiles. Replaced Scotland mountain with coal hill, added coal to Ireland, moved horse to highlighted tile, added Salt to Norwich. England had a huge amount of coal at the start of the industrial revolution. Wales is the most famous for it but I went ahead and added some elsewhere in the isles. Don't know if the placements are in accordance with actual deposits but more plentiful coal is needed. Horse moved to free up cottage south of London, represents their importance in England's west country. Fish moved to London harbor... I know London itself was not a huge city in the Medieval period but I'd vote to keep the three food resources as they can get chopped up into Manchester/Newcastle or Bristol/Plymouth. Perhaps change the wheat to potato spawning later, speaking of which Ireland needs a potato as well, maybe 1e of Cork.

Spoiler Iberia :

Pink are moved resources that better suit the cities I see getting settled... other than the wine. Wasn't sure if Cordoba is supposed to be 1s or not. Not sure about Madrid as well. Terrain is accurate to biomes but I think it looks a bit weird aesthetically, may just be because I don't have the bluemarble textures.

Spoiler Earthmap :

Ignore the highlighting, I was trying to conceptualize the mix of plains, grassland, forests, and hills. I'd like to achieve something aesthetically that looks a bit less plain. Thoughts?

Spoiler Italy :

City placement. I've only questions about the cannon location for Marseilles and Florence. For Marseilles I placed it west to avoid encroaching on Italy too much. For Florence I placed it on the water to represent a greater Pisa/Lucca/Florence city.

 

[Tab911]

Central and Eastern Europe. My approach here was to research a number of cities and regions and derive resources from their history, economy, culture or needs. I placed them with this in mind, not thinking too much about balance, here is the result.

Spoiler Eastern Europe :

Highlighted tile moved oil for Bucharest. You can see two Budapest locations, the first is more accurate while the second works better for game play. Salt moved to free up Krakow location, also represents salt mines east of Krakow.

Spoiler East Baltic :

Added tiles in red, removed islands in blue. I really like the extension, it gives much more variety to the Baltic coastline. First thing, I didn't place it but I think there should be fish nw of Gdansk that can be fought over by it and Kalmar/Malmo. I put oil in Lithuania, could also be offshore. I just think Europe needs two, it gives Germany reason to conquer east in order to build more Panzers. Other resources have been added or moved around, to accurately reflect each city.

Spoiler Germany :

Same here, red is added tiles, in this case islands. Ignore the orange, we'll get to that in a minute. Resources... wine to Vienna maybe, wine for Frankfurt (Mainz) absolutely. Huge vineyard region, gotta have this one. Other resources around Frankfurt have been shuffled to represent how the Rhine is industrially rich and favors cannon city placement. Horses for Stuttgart ("stud farm," was founded to breed warhorses). Aluminum added to south Germany, this was an important region in military manufacturing for Germany. Marble added to Dresden, represents its use in the Royal household, monuments and architecture of Dresden/Leipzig/Berlin/Prague. Berlin is a bit plain which is good. Wheat north in Pomerania, handful of other resources in its BFC that can be distributed to it when Prussia spawns. Hamburg gets salt to represent Luneberg, along with fish, stone and pig, could have copper instead of stone too.

Spoiler Low Countries :

Yellow has been made a hill, orange has been made floodplain.
That's right, big changes here. I wasn't a fan of all the marshes that rendered the low countries useless until the Dutch spawn, this region is very important historically, used as a frontier against Germanic tribes in Roman times and rivaling northern Italy as the most densely populated in Western Europe by the 12th century. There's no reason to have an empty area prior to the Dutch spawn. Amsterdam was second to the US in exporting agricultural products and is known for fertile soil, in conjunction with the importance of the whole Rhine-Ruhr area, floodplain is an accurate solution.
Now then, ignore the wheat next to Amsterdam, I think it should be moved 1ne of Brussels as Amsterdam has enough food resources as it is. The olives should spawn with the Dutch, providing food, additional health and representing the diverse agricultural production of Holland. I'd like to have Amsterdam spawn as independent much earlier along with Brussels and the two can be fought over by Germany, France and Spain just as the case was in reality.

Do let me know concerns about resources, I under explained to get this posted today, the ones I did mention are the ones I feel the most strongly about.

 

[Leoreth]

I see Marseille on the tile labeled Nice, open to discussion on this though.

The tile labeled with three cities is Florence to me.

 

[Steb]

I see Marseille on the tile labeled Nice, open to discussion on this though.

Either way could work, but I think I agree. There are four tiles in west-east length between the north-south stretches of coast in the area, and the four corresponding cities should clearly be Montpellier, Marseille, Nice, and Genova. North of Marseille would be Grenoble.

 

[merijn_v1]

Spoiler Low Countries :

View attachment 529846

Yellow has been made a hill, orange has been made floodplain.
That's right, big changes here. I wasn't a fan of all the marshes that rendered the low countries useless until the Dutch spawn, this region is very important historically, used as a frontier against Germanic tribes in Roman times and rivaling northern Italy as the most densely populated in Western Europe by the 12th century. There's no reason to have an empty area prior to the Dutch spawn. Amsterdam was second to the US in exporting agricultural products and is known for fertile soil, in conjunction with the importance of the whole Rhine-Ruhr area, floodplain is an accurate solution.
Now then, ignore the wheat next to Amsterdam, I think it should be moved 1ne of Brussels as Amsterdam has enough food resources as it is. The olives should spawn with the Dutch, providing food, additional health and representing the diverse agricultural production of Holland. I'd like to have Amsterdam spawn as independent much earlier along with Brussels and the two can be fought over by Germany, France and Spain just as the case was in reality.

I would place the cow 1N, to represent the Frisian livestock.

I would only move the wheat next to Brussels if Brussels is a canonical city that would be founded (almost) every game. Otherwise I would swap it with the cow. Amsterdam should really control the wheat resource over any German city. Making it 1 tile away from Amsterdam will make sure of that. Swapping it with the cow is to place the cow on a more accurate position as I mentioned above.

I see what you are trying to achieve with the olives, but I don't think that olives are the right resource for that. I would replace it with potatoes. The potato is an important staple food in the Low Countries. It can be placed in the Low Countries in the earlier dates of the Columbian exchange. (1600 AD would not be ahistorically early, 1650 will also do if better for gameplay) The Aardappeleters (potato eaters) painting of Van Gogh needs to be represented somehow. (And nowadays the Netherlands is most productive producer of potatoes)

 

[ozqar]

Spoiler Iberia :

View attachment 529832

Pink are moved resources that better suit the cities I see getting settled... other than the wine. Wasn't sure if Cordoba is supposed to be 1s or not. Not sure about Madrid as well. Terrain is accurate to biomes but I think it looks a bit weird aesthetically, may just be because I don't have the bluemarble textures.

Nice that this area is getting some attention too! Some thoughts, Madrid should definitely be 1W of your placement. Zaragoza can be placed 2E and 2E1N of the (new) Madrid tile. Santiago (1N of Vigo) should definitely be there too and could coexist better with (new) Madrid than the other Castilian cities you propose (ie, Leon & Salamanca). Should Murcia's tile be Valencia instead? I think it's historically and presently a more important city.

Terrain-wise, some semidesert is realistic for the Spanish highlands, and can help provide some more texture to the place, and definitely many more hills would fit better the Spanish relief, perhaps you can try how that looks!

In Italy, I think Palermo is more important for Sicily than Catania

Spoiler Low Countries :

View attachment 529846

Yellow has been made a hill, orange has been made floodplain.
That's right, big changes here. I wasn't a fan of all the marshes that rendered the low countries useless until the Dutch spawn, this region is very important historically, used as a frontier against Germanic tribes in Roman times and rivaling northern Italy as the most densely populated in Western Europe by the 12th century. There's no reason to have an empty area prior to the Dutch spawn. Amsterdam was second to the US in exporting agricultural products and is known for fertile soil, in conjunction with the importance of the whole Rhine-Ruhr area, floodplain is an accurate solution.
Now then, ignore the wheat next to Amsterdam, I think it should be moved 1ne of Brussels as Amsterdam has enough food resources as it is. The olives should spawn with the Dutch, providing food, additional health and representing the diverse agricultural production of Holland. I'd like to have Amsterdam spawn as independent much earlier along with Brussels and the two can be fought over by Germany, France and Spain just as the case was in reality.

Do let me know concerns about resources, I under explained to get this posted today, the ones I did mention are the ones I feel the most strongly about.

About the Netherlands, I get that it should be an agricultural powerhouse (completely accurate), but olives don't grow here at all. After the Columbian exchange, potatoes are much more accurate, before then, the cow and the wheat (together with the floodplains) are more than sufficient. Perhaps the Amsterdam tile should be coast initially, or at least marshes/swamps. In ancient times, the region was intermittently inhabited, so a wetlands-type of terrain would be accurate. On the other hand, I do like the idea of independent Amsterdam from early in the game, so perhaps we can have that too.

Edit: I fully agree with Merijn's comments about resource placement

 

[f1rpo]

In Germany: Perhaps a Silver Hill in central Germany to represent the Harz?
(Full disclosure: I grew up there.) Silver (and uranium) was also mined farther east in the Ore Mountains.

 

[Tab911]

I removed uranium at one point to clear a spot and never put it back. It ought to make the final cut.
I fully agree about Netherlands resources, move cow 1n. I indeed went for olives as a representation of tomatoes, citrus fruits and other varied agricultural goods produced in the Netherlands. Potatoes is a good solution to provide more food after Holland spawns and health bonuses for variety. Accurate for the Dutch too.
In the ancient world the Amsterdam tile should be marsh while Brussels remains open to Roman settlement. I don’t think the area would be very developed due to the Germanic barbarians constantly invading. Marsh flips when ind Amsterdam spawns, not sure what we want to choose for a date yet.
In sum, place wheat over olives, potato over cow and cow on the northern wheat tile.

 

[Tab911]

Double post update on Iberia

Spoiler Image :

Added stone on highlighted tile, I just thought Seville and Cordoba could use it given how productive they were. Also gives Spain stone upon Cordoban conquest. Other resources have been moved for city placement, otherwise more work could be done for resources (I think some are added when Portugal spawns too), I didn't touch much.

Extended semi-desert in south east. Biome maps suggest the coast as we had before was accurate yet I've done a bit of research on the area because it looks much drier on a satellite map. Its a tough call because the area is composed of high deserts and also Mediterranean shrub-lands. In the interest of an aesthetically engaging Spain, I'd like to at least see the extension of the semi-desert to the hill tiles.
I've also added forest where appropriate.

Finally city placement. Madrid has gone 1w, Barcelona 1n, Zaragoza is now feasible and I'm still conflicted about Cordoba. The AI almost never uses persecutors (and I think they cost too much to build) given the importance of Seville at the height of the Spanish empire, I think it makes the most sense to have Cordoba be raised if conquered, allowing Spain to settle Seville.

 

[ozqar]

Double post update on Iberia

Spoiler Image :

View attachment 529993

Added stone on highlighted tile, I just thought Seville and Cordoba could use it given how productive they were. Also gives Spain stone upon Cordoban conquest. Other resources have been moved for city placement, otherwise more work could be done for resources (I think some are added when Portugal spawns too), I didn't touch much.

Extended semi-desert in south east. Biome maps suggest the coast as we had before was accurate yet I've done a bit of research on the area because it looks much drier on a satellite map. Its a tough call because the area is composed of high deserts and also Mediterranean shrub-lands. In the interest of an aesthetically engaging Spain, I'd like to at least see the extension of the semi-desert to the hill tiles.
I've also added forest where appropriate.

Finally city placement. Madrid has gone 1w, Barcelona 1n, Zaragoza is now feasible and I'm still conflicted about Cordoba. The AI almost never uses persecutors (and I think they cost too much to build) given the importance of Seville at the height of the Spanish empire, I think it makes the most sense to have Cordoba be raised if conquered, allowing Spain to settle Seville.

Nice work! You got me inspired and so I researched a bit more on Spain. The new map allows for much more there. I've noticed that there's now room for Oviedo (1W of Santander), which is incredibly nice as it was (one of) the seat(s) of the Kingdom of Asturias, where the Reconquista started. Discussions aside as to when Spain should spawn (maybe the new map allows a better modeling of the Reconquista), it would be super nice to have it as a city. In Northern Spain, because all those cities are sort of similar in size, I think it'd be ok to have all four of Oviedo (1W of Santander), Santander, Bilbao (1E of Santander), and Zaragoza possible, with similar or equal weights on the settler map, so that we see different ones on each game.

It would be amazing to see Toledo too, as the Visigothic capital and an important city under Arab rule. It's basically the same tile as Madrid (and they're super close anyway in real life). I'd be happy to see roman / barbarian Toletum eventually conquered by the Moors, and then by the Spanish. Madrid and Toledo are different cities, but they've always been connected - Madrid was fortified to protect Toledo, for example - so changing Toledo's name to Madrid around the 11th century would be alright to me (when the Castilian kings moved the court there). For example, assuming Spain started with Oviedo as its capital city and had to conquer its way south, constructing a palace in Toledo could be the trigger to change the name to Madrid (and could be part of the UHVs). Otherwise, well, Madrid can be there from Roman times as Matrice, but the settlement wasn't important compared to Toletum.

Anyway, for Souther Spain, I don't think we have to choose between Córdoba and Sevilla! If we move Córdoba 1E then both can be there; Sevilla was an important city for the Romans and the Moors both, so it's good to have it from ancient times. Córdoba in that eastern location can also coexist with Valencia or Murcia, and does a better job of also representing Granada (which would be on the wine tile). This way, at its peak, Muslim Spain could hold all of Córdoba, Sevilla, Valencia/Murcia, Toledo, and (if only temporarily or with a lot of chance) Zaragoza or Barcelona.

In Eastern Spain, I like the change of Barcelona 1N, it works better indeed! I'd move the olives in Valencia south (to Murcia's tile) simply because Valencia is and was generally more important, so to encourage it.

About the relief, I checked this map, and would propose to make the copper hill into flat terrain (to represent the Guadalquivir valley including the current tile of Córdoba and the tile of Seville). I think all the southern coast South and East of the Guadalquivir should be hills (ie, the stone and wine tiles). I'd also make the tiles north of Madrid (the horse and 1W of horse) into hills, to fully represent the high altitude of the plateau there, although if you think it's better to leave those two tiles as plains because the terrain is actually flat there and to represent the Duero valley, that would be ok too! The Ebro valley should also be low altitude, so I'd change the tiles of Zaragoza and 1SE into flat terrain.

For vegetation, I like the expanded semidesert as you propose, but I'd compensate with more vegetation on the Eastern coast. As you mentioned, southeastern Spain is covered with mediterranean woodlands, so adding the new savanna feature on the wine tile, 1E of wine, and on Murcia's tile would be nice. I think the savanna feature over the semidesert would work fine aesthetically. Valencia's tile could be a deciduous forest (like the ones near Barcelona). For accuracy, the forests 1W and 1S of Zaragoza could be conifers, and those along the northern coast would be best under the new mixed forests feature Merijn made (or alternatively, have at least some conifers there in some tiles).

That's all I got for Spain - maybe you like some of these proposals, give it a look