Devil's Advocate - Venice the conqueror

[BearStew]

So I want to try something here. Please try and keep an open mind, and I'll try to do the same. Venice is often written off as a terrible domination/conquest based civilization. I don't necessarily think that's true. I just want to come here and play devil's advocate and see if either I can be convinced of my folly or I can change some minds.

Venice has 6 uniques that separate it from the base civilization:

1. Cannot settle or Annex additional cities
2. Great Merchant of Venice
3. Can puppet City States using Great Merchants of Venice
4. Great Galleas
5. Double # of trade routes
6. Can purchase in puppeted cities

What are the problems with these uniques that stop Venice being viable (or even good) at conquest? By conquest I mean a war based strategy not just full dom but including SV, CV or diplo using a conquered empire. What am I missing that makes them not perfectly suited to a H-C-A game?

I note that with Venice I would be warring with my trade and gold in mind all of the time. I would be warring for profit, and choosing targets etc. with that being my foremost consideration, whether it be that they have access to resources I need/want a monopoly over, have cities that I could send profitable trade routes from, or have wonders I want.

The main synergies I see with this play style are:

1. Generally the trade routes are limited by access to good home ports for your cargo ships close enough to your trade buddies... I propose taking them by force.
2. Can use some of the extra trade routes to offset the opportunity cost of not going tradition
3. The gold (Honor finisher, trade posts, good trade routes and commerce boosted GMoV, which by the way your puppets will generate for you without wasting time on those pesky GS)
4. Frees up unit cap limitations by opening up an abundant source of cities
5. I feel almost evil playing an unscrupulous war profiteer
6. The gold
7. Almost certain to get the extra 4 routes from Petra and the Colossus (one way or another)
8. The gold
9. No pesky settled cities pushing up my policy cost
10. Can purchase units on the front, whenever, wherever without having to annex
11. Can purchase religious buildings in all of your cities to help with happiness issues
12. Can create forward operating bases by buying nearby CS at the drop of a hat
13. Did I mention the cold hard profit ?

The only unique I'm not personally able to leverage here is the Great Galleas. In concept a naval UU should be brilliant for a civ that wants to pick and choose its conquest targets very carefully. Even on Pangaea, being able to attack the opposite side of the landmass without trekking over the entire continent is a bonus. In many ways the synergy here is even greater because of Venice's greed for access to more trade routes, particularly coastal ones. The only problem is that I find them awkward and don't fully understand how to get the best out of them yet. Firstly, and probably most importantly, they can't cross oceans, so lose the synergy I just noted about attacking the other side of the continent. Other than that I find that they are too close to Frigates on the tech tree to get much use as by the time you build 6-7 of them, you could research Navigation. If they had an earlier iteration like the Dromon and I could mass upgrade at Compass that would be one thing, but I find that generally I will have spent the time building a unit that costs more hammers than the original and is too quickly superseded. I'd rather a weaker Galleas that costs fewer hammers to build. Now that would be magical. I'm convinced here that I am missing something and that these units can be used to some advantage.

 

[Acken]

So I want to try something here. Please try and keep an open mind, and I'll try to do the same. Venice is often written off as a terrible domination/conquest based civilization. I don't necessarily think that's true. I just want to come here and play devil's advocate and see if either I can be convinced of my folly or I can change some minds.

Well actually it's worse than that. Venice is often recognized as a terrible civilization in pure strength. But due to its uniqueness many persons, including me, find it a fun civilization.

What are the problems with these uniques that stop Venice being viable (or even good) at conquest? By conquest I mean a war based strategy not just full dom but including SV, CV or diplo using a conquered empire. What am I missing that makes them not perfectly suited to a H-C-A game?

The main problem Venice faces is their low production capabilities. You need a GM to expand peacefully and the only one you can get early is at Optics. All the other require either Liberty often regarded as poor for Venice compared to tradition or to manually generate one (which need a lot of time and reduce your GS counter each time). Add on top of that the fact that you cannot control the slots of your puppet and it becomes really difficult to compete in GS numbers.

The routes are supposed to be there to buy stuff in city states but when going to war you risk losing these routes a lot. Makes Venice lose A LOT of power if you're playing a Pangaea type map because you're likely to not make that many cargos.

I note that with Venice I would be warring with my trade and gold in mind all of the time. I would be warring for profit, and choosing targets etc. with that being my foremost consideration, whether it be that they have access to resources I need/want a monopoly over, have cities that I could send profitable trade routes from, or have wonders I want.

Well once you start warring the AI will hate you... so getting a monopoly won't make you that much richer.

The synergies you underline after are alright and they underline a simple fact. Venice is fun, unique. However you will quickly see that compared to other civs, it has lower performances.

 

[Darkdan1138]

I love Venice, and like you, I'm interested in DV with them on Deity. I've tried it twice now with not much success, but I'm getting better with each map.

I do know that Madjinn's LP of Venice is actually a domination victory, so you can check out his video series on that to get some pointers.

Personally, I still like the tradition opener for food growth, and its POSSIBLE to get Colossus on Deity, but it can be difficult, so it might be better skipping that at first and going for more science initially. The one wonder I would definitely say you need to get as domination Venice is Big Ben for gold cost reduction. Add onto that the gold purchase reduction from Autocracy and you can buy your way to domination victory.

 

[consentient]

Maddjinn's Venice LP was pretty poor, by his standards, actually. His play in it was nowhere near as good as his others, IIRC.

The main reason Venice suck for H-C-A is that Honor gives culture and happiness per city, Commerce gives happiness per lux, and Autocracy gives it per city. Plus, to get to Dynamite quick enough, you need to annex and properly use science. You'll never do that with Venice. Plus until you start puppeting, your unit cap will be much lower.

 

[beetle]

Venice is often written off as a terrible domination/conquest based civilization. I don't necessarily think that's true.

I wish you luck as I would prefer to be more open minded!

I just want to come here and play devil's advocate and see if either I can be convinced of my folly or I can change some minds.

Should you not start by putting some of you theory into practice first? I guess you are hoping we might collaborative brain storm first?

I am pleased that your critical strategy list does not include occasionally getting a number of unpromoted and typically outdated units. I get a half dozen free privateers and think I am ready to rock. This has not worked out for me...

I have also tried to leverage the GG without effect -- mostly for the reasons you list.

I love Venice, and like you, I'm interested in DV with them on Deity. I've tried it twice now with not much success, but I'm getting better with each map.

That is encouraging! I gave up pretty quick.

Add onto that the gold purchase reduction from Autocracy and you can buy your way to domination victory.

Clearly, if it is possible, Venice will buying its way to domination victory. So why not Order instead of Autocracy? That would be 33% off units instead of just the 25%.

 

[BearStew]

Thanks guys, these are the types of questions I was hoping for/prompts for me to fill in the gaping holes I left in my first post.

Should you not start by putting some of you theory into practice first? I guess you are hoping we might collaborative brain storm first?

This is something I have played with successfully a few times. The point of this thread isn't necessarily to highlight this as an optimal strategy, but to show people that it's possible and that being creative and having fun and even role playing (I'd like to think the Venetians were unscrupulous, opportunistic capitalists) at deity level isn't impossible. I'm hoping that if people see things like this that go against how they see the necessities of Deity, they will start to think outside of the box a bit more and we will see more and more innovative thinking around here. I personally get bored if I'm trying the same Tradition-Rationalism thing every game and feel sad that I often let the uniques of each civilization go unused. For me, it takes variety and fun out of the game to play cookie-cutter builds.

I agree though that I should demonstrate the strategy and what it can achieve and how it is done. I will try to fit a game in at some point, (something I am finding hard atm with a new job, haven't even finished the Denmark DCL!) and take some screen shots and do a bit more thorough write up of what I am talking about. Also yes I am hoping for some brainstorming and in particular hoping for some discussion around the Great Galleas. Hoping that someone sees them from a different angle that can highlight a strength I am missing.

The main problem Venice faces is their low production capabilities. You need a GM to expand peacefully and the only one you can get early is at Optics

I agree on the surface it would seem that way. What I am thinking is that seeing as you don't build settlers, a) growth isn't stopped early game and b) those hammers or gold can be re-purposed into archers. Ideally, the GMoV from Optics should come around T40-50 and the city state you want to purchase will have a couple of CB presents for you. In that way I'm proposing to get 6-8 CBs by around T50 which should be enough to go to war with.

After this point, nearly every troop is bought. For two reasons; lack of production as you said, and it means I can get them where I need them.

Well once you start warring the AI will hate you... so getting a monopoly won't make you that much richer.

Yes, I will get far less per unique luxury. Once I have a strangle hold on 5 or so luxes that noone else has surplus of any more though, I find that I start to cross a break-even point. People have to come to me if they want a particular lux (eg. Ivory). Even at 3 GPT/Lux that comes out to 15 GPT/civ. Not earth shattering, but it does add up. The other strength I find, is that usually this gives me enough copies to send to nearly everyone, helping to ensure no ban votes go through to hurt me.

I am pleased that your critical strategy list does not include occasionally getting a number of unpromoted and typically outdated units. I get a half dozen free privateers and think I am ready to rock.

Haha no. I often see Austria strategies note about how powerful the number of units you get is. Sure it's not nothing, but it doesn't make a warmonger force out of nothing.

The main reason Venice suck for H-C-A is that Honor gives culture and happiness per city, Commerce gives happiness per lux, and Autocracy gives it per city.

Yes, to start with the culture/happiness per city isn't super strong, but the goal of this strategy is to conquer either at least a significant (10-15) or huge (20-40) number of cities, making it a much more worthwhile investment.

Plus until you start puppeting, your unit cap will be much lower.

Agreed that this is definitely the toughest part of the entire game using this strategy. To have a force of around 10-14 troops I think you realistically need 3 cities (from memory here, its been a couple of weeks). There is a window in between the first city state buyout and the first puppet where production suffers a bit.

The synergies you underline after are alright and they underline a simple fact. Venice is fun, unique. However you will quickly see that compared to other civs, it has lower performances.

Yeah, I agree they won't get super fast science victories or the like. And they aren't as obviously strong. That's true. What I find though is that this sort of strategy puts me in a puppetmaster like situation more often than not which ends up leading to an easy, if not impressive victory. I'm also hoping that by pointing out the viability of this play, and my thought process to get here, that other people can find other, unique perspectives to cast on other civs.

Add on top of that the fact that you cannot control the slots of your puppet and it becomes really difficult to compete in GS numbers.

Similar to above, but I'm not really trying to spawn many GS, if any. There is no real need if you don't need a certain tech by a certain time. In this strategy, GMoV are far more useful, either for forward operating bases, or for their ridiculous outputs after the commerce boost. GS aren't really necessary to stay on par with the ai, tech wise, only to pull ahead.

The routes are supposed to be there to buy stuff in city states but when going to war you risk losing these routes a lot

You've hit the nail on the head there. This is a core worry of Venice, protecting your trade routes. There will be some losses, but whilst picking wars this has to be a constant criteria about where and when to attack. Where possible, trade routes should be within your "sphere of influence". Setting this up is critical to Venice. Ideally your neighbours are either allies, or practically vanquished. They either don't want to go to war with you or can't feasibly mount an attack. You will likely earn less per trade route for a while, but once your sphere grows, so do the possibilities.

A core concept to making this work is attacking far away warmongers. Often across the ocean. This works extremely well on Continents and Continents + of course, but can also be made to work quite well on Pangaea too. This often allows you to liberate cities or even resurrect civs which is great, because it not only manages the hate, but allows you to choose which cities to keep and which to give away. It trims the scariest ais as a priority.

 

[crabe]

The main problem Venice faces is their low production capabilities. You need a GM to expand peacefully and the only one you can get early is at Optics. All the other require either Liberty often regarded as poor for Venice compared to tradition or to manually generate one (which need a lot of time and reduce your GS counter each time). Add on top of that the fact that you cannot control the slots of your puppet and it becomes really difficult to compete in GS numbers.

Go Liberty.

GMs at Optics, Collective Rule, and the Liberty finisher.

I'm not saying this is a good idea or anything, but, in the right circumstance, this can get you three cities to send food back to venice, plus a crap load of troops. Every time I play Venice though there is only one nearby CS that has any units at all.

 

[Acken]

And then you die of unhapiness because your only worthwhile city, the capital cannot grow.

 

[Manpanzee]

I think Venice is actually a very strong Civ if your goal is fast Domination. Dedicated warmongers often don't even build a second city anyway, so the Venice drawback isn't a big deal. Merchants of Venice are worth a ton of gold early (800 in Classical era), and you can get up to two by researching Optics and taking Liberty. Just buy a bunch of Archers/Comp Bows and go to work.

I used Venice in a Deity Archipelago Domination challenge, and got a Turn 120 victory via Great Galleass rush. Those ships are seriously powerful for sea-based Domination. You can absolutely build your game around them. Their special ability is that they can win the game before Frigates are possible. Here are my posts about that game -- lots of good discussion in this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13784741&postcount=33
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13785217&postcount=34

 

[BearStew]

Awesome, thanks for the links. I'll have a look through and hopefully the great galleas will start to click for me!

 

[beetle]

Merchants of Venice are worth a ton of gold early (800 in Classical era), and you can get up to two by researching Optics and taking Liberty. Just buy a bunch of Archers/Comp Bows and go to work.

This is simple enough that I need to give it a try! I still have not gotten an early Deity domination run under my belt.

 

[ShakaKhan]

On the one hand, Venice is one of the more lackluster civs in general, and the bonuses that it does have aren't weighted particularly towards domination or aggressive gameplay in general. On the other hand, it's not that difficult, I've done it twice, once on emperor and once on immortal.

Regardless of the gameplay style or intended VC, Venice seems to consistently have difficulty getting the ball rolling, but once it is rolling everything comes together pretty nicely. For example, during peaceful games they usually encounter an early problem regarding fewer cities means lower unit supply, but twice as many trade routes means twice the unit supply cost from trade units PLUS additional units needed to guard all those extra trade routes... this becomes problematic. However, once you MoV-grab your 2nd and 3rd puppet, everything comes together.

Similarly for dom games, it can be difficult to get started because of the unit supply issue caused by trade routes leaves less of a reserve available to launch a successful offensive. However, once you snag your first AI city, it's all downhill from there.

One of the saving graces of the Venice-supply-domination dilemma is water maps/great galleasses. In general, the rules of naval combat (and the AI's inability to use it advantageously) make it easier to do a lot more with a lot fewer units on the water. And on the water maps, the galeass is an incredibly powerful unit, like a treb with double moves, earlier access to Range and doesn't need to set up. Not that the Great galeass is such a big improvement, rather that it takes one of the more integral units in naval combat and improves on it, similar to how a modest improvement on a composite-bow would have more of an impact than a major improvement on a knight.

 

[beetle]

I think Venice is actually a very strong Civ if your goal is fast Domination... Merchants of Venice are worth a ton of gold early (800 in Classical era), and you can get up to two by researching Optics and taking Liberty. Just buy a bunch of Archers/Comp Bows and go to work.

I am embarrassed to admit how much trouble I having with this! It seems so straightforward. I recently tried it twice in row, and things were just not coming together for me. In both games I had to abort my early conquests attempts, so no inertia before T150 (Manpanzee is done with the game by then.)

Here's my problems:

1. Optics and Construction are on opposite sides of the tech tree. I am either sitting on my money or waiting for too long to get started with CBs.
2. Using both MoVs for money means hitting hard against the unit cap -- at least until I get a few cities -- but I never got those few cities.
3. Venice ended up ice-locked both games, so no opportunity for Great Galleass.

Rereading this thread, I see that using both MoVs for money is not recommended. So why not Tradition or Honor instead of Liberty?

I think I will try Oval or Continents instead of Pangaea. I am just looking for a cheesy Deity Dom win, so should the map be Archipelago instead? I am not trying for any speed records -- more of just a fun fool-proof diversion. My first attempts turned out not to be so fool proof!

I am looking for suggestions, or to hear stories from others that have gotten easy Deity Dom wins using Venice the Conqueror. Bearstew, did you ever give it try?

 

[Redaxe]

Go Liberty.

GMs at Optics, Collective Rule, and the Liberty finisher.

I'm not saying this is a good idea or anything, but, in the right circumstance, this can get you three cities to send food back to venice, plus a crap load of troops. Every time I play Venice though there is only one nearby CS that has any units at all.

I think you really need the growth and gold from Tradition to make Venice work. Liberty I don't think provides enough benefits for Venice. I could be wrong though.

An early Mausoleum of Halicarnissus or Colossus can help provide more great merchant points.

The other thing against Venice is the UU Galleas sucks. It's barely better than a normal galleas and it will still lose against Caravels and Privateers.

 

[Manpanzee]

I am embarrassed to admit how much trouble I having with this! It seems so straightforward. I recently tried it twice in row, and things were just not coming together for me. In both games I had to abort my early conquests attempts, so no inertia before T150 (Manpanzee is done with the game by then.)

Here's my problems:

1. Optics and Construction are on opposite sides of the tech tree. I am either sitting on my money or waiting for too long to get started with CBs.
2. Using both MoVs for money means hitting hard against the unit cap -- at least until I get a few cities -- but I never got those few cities.
3. Venice ended up ice-locked both games, so no opportunity for Great Galleass.

Rereading this thread, I see that using both MoVs for money is not recommended. So why not Tradition or Honor instead of Liberty?

I think I will try Oval or Continents instead of Pangaea. I am just looking for a cheesy Deity Dom win, so should the map be Archipelago instead? I am not trying for any speed records -- more of just a fun fool-proof diversion. My first attempts turned out not to be so fool proof!

I am looking for suggestions, or to hear stories from others that have gotten easy Deity Dom wins using Venice the Conqueror. Bearstew, did you ever give it try?

The Venice land conquest strategy isn't really recommended for Deity. I play all difficulty levels, and given that Deity is only 1/8 of the possible difficulties, Deity isn't generally a big factor when I'm talking about Civs and strategies.

Venice is a nice naval conquest civ on all difficulties, but for land conquest it's more appropriate for lower difficulties. Basically, Venice is a strong conquest civ for any settings in which conquering the world with only one self-founded city is a good strategy. Definitely viable at King and below, workable up to Immortal with good play, very hard on Deity.

For land domination I would tech Wheel first, and get your first free Merchant from Liberty. That should fund enough Chariots to get started taking capitals. Once you have the Wheel, then head up to Optics to get money for more units. Going Optics first on a land map is indeed quite a significant delay.

Also, a general note about "fast" victory versus "easy" victory -- Venice's main bonus for this strategy is an extra ~2,000 gold in the Classical era (roughly accounting for the value of CS influence). Aside from that, Venice doesn't have much of relevance. Purchasing reinforcements in puppet cities closer to the front is handy, but not gamebreaking. If the game goes long, Venice becomes seriously disadvantaged relative to any other Civ, due to its inability to control its cities. So, Venice = very strong in the first 100 turns, very weak in turns 150+.

This is a strategy that is explicitly designed for very fast victory, and if you commit to the fast victory and end the game in your era of dominance, then the game will be easy. If you aren't willing to go all-in on the early game victory, and you instead take an approach that lets the game go into your era of weakness, then victory will be much harder. Faster = easier.

 

[peddroelm]

...
You've hit the nail on the head there. This is a core worry of Venice, protecting your trade routes. There will be some losses, but whilst picking wars this has to be a constant criteria about where and when to attack. Where possible, trade routes should be within your "sphere of influence". Setting this up is critical to Venice. Ideally your neighbours are either allies, or practically vanquished. They either don't want to go to war with you or can't feasibly mount an attack. You will likely earn less per trade route for a while, but once your sphere grows, so do the possibilities.

A core concept to making this work is attacking far away warmongers. Often across the ocean. This works extremely well on Continents and Continents + of course, but can also be made to work quite well on Pangaea too. This often allows you to liberate cities or even resurrect civs which is great, because it not only manages the hate, but allows you to choose which cities to keep and which to give away. It trims the scariest ais as a priority.

+1

Been a while since I've played them but Venice has very strong synergy with Honor Commerce Autocracy Strategy.. That is based on getting better gold/hammer rush buy ratio and Venice can make a ton of gold with its trade routes. .. Science somewhat problematic but Venice can really grow with 4-6 incoming food cargo ships .. Once you've rush brought your main army you can afford to lose/rebuild a few cargo ships when going to war .. Will need to be careful with conquest order protecting and shifting /rebuilding lost trade routes during the warring stage..

 

[beetle]

I think you really need the growth and gold from Tradition to make Venice work. Liberty I don't think provides enough benefits for Venice.

This has been my experience and the conclusion I have fought coming to, but I welcome opinions to the contrary!

The Venice land conquest strategy isn't really recommended for Deity.

That makes me feel better about failing at it!

I play all difficulty levels, and given that Deity is only 1/8 of the possible difficulties, Deity isn't generally a big factor when I'm talking about Civs and strategies.

Sorry, but it’s being disingenuous not to be clear. You know the audience on this sub-forum! There are huge number of strategies that don’t work at Deity, but only a handful of Deity strategies that don’t work at lower levels. I appreciate the additional details, and it helps explain my frustrations.

If you aren't willing to go all-in on the early game victory, and you instead take an approach that lets the game go into your era of weakness, then victory will be much harder. Faster = easier.

This is a lesson I have had great difficulty putting into actual play! It applies to every game where I open Honor. So I have been looking for maps where faster turns out to be less crucial. I understand now that Venice on Pangaea is not one such configuration!

A core concept to making this work is attacking far away warmongers. Often across the ocean. This works extremely well on Continents and Continents + of course, but can also be made to work quite well on Pangaea too. This often allows you to liberate cities or even resurrect civs which is great, because it not only manages the hate, but allows you to choose which cities to keep and which to give away. It trims the scariest AIs as a priority.

I think the Continents+ script is my favorite -- but for Venice would that not mean lack of early CS within cargo ship range? Or do you turtle until Astronomy? Is Archipelago or Small Continents even better for Venice the Conqueror?

Been a while since I've played them but Venice has very strong synergy with Honor Commerce Autocracy Strategy. That is based on getting better gold/hammer rush buy ratio and Venice can make a ton of gold with its trade routes.

This I would like to know more about, especially coming from you! Have you written some of this up? When do you start conquering?

Science somewhat problematic but Venice can really grow with 4-6 incoming food cargo ships.

Surely that is not 4-6 CS converted by MoV. So how many MoVs for CS before warring? Are you rush-buying with MoVs (before Commerce 2x policy) or rush-buying all the time from the extra trade route money?

 

[peddroelm]

I checked the deity challenge list but that map is cooked .. Might just do a Venice LP next on a regular map .. Won't be top notch since I haven't played them in a while (years) but should be good enough ..Also as I'm starting to recall liberty ->commerce -> autocracy is the better strat for Venice .. Need the early MoV for puppet -> cargo ship and extra science

 

[peddroelm]

ok - did a quick game to turn 200

-not having 3+ city states in base cargo ship range of venice means trouble (land caravans can work but not as well) .. If truly isolated trade route wise from city states you are pretty dead..
-having mountain access for capital would solve all your problems - otherwise you'll need top autocracy spy stealing game
-having one AI city in range of basic caravan/cargoship range is a huge boost (faster NC/Education)
-first three MoCs are going to come at sailing, liberty settler policy and liberty finisher(landing a GS instead also an option) ..
-grab 3 non culture city states in range of Venice, buy granary if they lack it - send 3 food cargo ships back to Venice .. (watch its growth rate explode) ..
-engineering//metal casting/compass before education -> eventually you will be able to trade route leach science from AI
-research and buy harbors asap..(city gold connection and extended trade route range)
-(if no mountain)banking->economics Even venice should have all non hills tradeposted.. By now you'll be so rich you'll be able to cash ally all known culture CS and 1 mercantile if needed.. faith ones also important -> buy more MoCs for huge cash infusions ..
-astronomy still important - longer traderoutes - better deals and trade route quests
- -> scientific theory and rush buy schools in all cities.
-> industrialization (bulb your great scientist along the way) - > buy factories every where -> pick spy speed autocracy policy - you'll need it ..
->chemistry for production
->electricity for stock exchange -> biology to see oil and extra trade route
->oxford prora ..

Can start war with (huge blob of purchased) artillery // air repair ww1 airforce or range frigates.. Keep in mind capturing cities murders your already poor tech rate .. Might want to wait even longer to combustion//electronics before you start murdering the map ..

No honor finisher so you'll have to be somewhat careful with your traderoutes (no more growth - all can be used for massive amounts gold) ..

EDIT: Definitely aggressively go for porcelain tower and sign a ton of RAs after. Venice can afford them and getting the extra trade route techs will allow you to afford even more RAs .. In the test LP I'm doing right now I was very lucky to steal my way to battleships but having PT and more RAs would've been the safer bet ...The RAW power of the immense GPT venice can get from trade must be experienced to be believed .. Hope my test LP will give you a glimpse ..

 

[beetle]

One dilemma I see for the Venice the Conqueror is that the best tenets in Order and Autocracy for conquest (i.e., the free and half-price double happy Courthouses) are not available. That being the case, might Freedom work almost as well?