[R&F] Devs play Tamar (of Georgia) Emergencies deep dive

[Lord Lakely]

That's exactly how Anton described it. Remember that you can't declare war while Declared Friends or Allied--you have to wait until those expire. So yes, that is indeed backstabbing.

Unless they removed that mechanic. (since this game has only two ways of "backstabbing" as of now: breaking promises and declaring surprise wars)

 

[drubell]

I'll want to review that stream again. but after taking a step away from it, I'm not convinced that Emergencies, as designed, is going to effectively stop a runaway AI as was marketed.

The bonuses and rewards you get from Emergencies only happen after the Emergency is fully completed. So if you're a runaway civ, and an Emergency is declared on you... why should I care? The Nuke Emergency video showed pretty clearly that if I'm ahead and I can throw nukes down, then I'm very unlikely for my enemies to actually succeed in its goal (take my capital). I can just keep throwing down nukes instead. A Military Emergency isn't really that different either. If I'm going for some conquest and an emergency is called on me from taking cities, I doubt I was in such a position where I was afraid I was going to worry about declarations.

What I EXPECTED from Emergencies would have been civs that are behind to get "microvictories" if they overall hinder the progress from a runaway civ. Say Brazil is very close to a victory. I overtake Brazil's city-states as suzerain? I get a small bonus. I kill a Brazilian spy? I get a small bonus. I plunder a Brazilian trade route? I get a small bonus. I convert some of their religion? I get a small bonus.

While that sounds like a very one-sided ganging-up on Brazil, I think that if you're going to implement Emergencies at all, you have to make sure that the civ that's actually a massive threat can lose. And if there is a high-threat civ, the other players/AI should be working to stop it anyway. What, the AI aren't going to gang up on you until a special "emergency" happens? Why aren't they trying to win the game instead?

As implemented, the goal of an Emergency doesn't change much overall. The video today that showed AI Mongolia screwing around its troops instead of committing to the Emergency just continues to prove that the #1 reason the AI continues to lose consistently is because the AI produces units and then can't fight its way out of a paper bag.

That's why, considering the state of the AI and the game in general, the idea of "microvictories" at least seems like something the AI could work to achieve. Otherwise, I expect the AI to fail almost any Emergency if a human player is opposing it.

 

[WillowBrook]

Many thanks to those of you who reported on the stream for those of us who couldn't watch.

 

[CPWimmer]

Weird to have 2 tiers of buildings on the same tech.

I think that is because Natural History is where you unlock the tier 2 building for the Entertainment District (the Zoo). So to stay on par, you get to unlock both the tier 1 and tier 2 buildings together as you unlock the new late game Amusement Pier district at that point.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

+ the unknown building at capitalism.

No. 14 must be in the science tree.

So, anyway. Having the unknown building at Capitalism might imply an alternate building for the Commercial Hub.

 

[Cerilis]

So, anyway. Having the unknown building at Capitalism might imply an alternate building for the Commercial Hub.

That was also my thought. But what could it be? Probably replaces the Stock exchange.

Maybe another trade route but far less gold (if at all?) The 14th building could be a harbour t3 replacement then with the same effect.

On second thought, I don't think it will add another trade route, but maybe gives (domestic?) bonuses to them anyway. Same for the harbour with some commercial port.

 

[Tinker]

Many thanks to those of you who reported on the stream for those of us who couldn't watch.

You can watch the VOD!
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/219879244
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/219915135
I assume they'll have it up on YouTube soon too, though.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

So, anyway. Having the unknown building at Capitalism might imply an alternate building for the Commercial Hub.

Could it possibly be a hotel in the Aerodrome? Or a casino somewhere?
By the way I like the way the Water Park looks late game. I don't know about the name though or what to call it now, because not all of it is on a pier anymore, at least late game.

 

[Cagarustus]

I'll want to review that stream again. but after taking a step away from it, I'm not convinced that Emergencies, as designed, is going to effectively stop a runaway AI as was marketed.

The bonuses and rewards you get from Emergencies only happen after the Emergency is fully completed. So if you're a runaway civ, and an Emergency is declared on you... why should I care? The Nuke Emergency video showed pretty clearly that if I'm ahead and I can throw nukes down, then I'm very unlikely for my enemies to actually succeed in its goal (take my capital). I can just keep throwing down nukes instead. A Military Emergency isn't really that different either. If I'm going for some conquest and an emergency is called on me from taking cities, I doubt I was in such a position where I was afraid I was going to worry about declarations.

What I EXPECTED from Emergencies would have been civs that are behind to get "microvictories" if they overall hinder the progress from a runaway civ. Say Brazil is very close to a victory. I overtake Brazil's city-states as suzerain? I get a small bonus. I kill a Brazilian spy? I get a small bonus. I plunder a Brazilian trade route? I get a small bonus. I convert some of their religion? I get a small bonus.

While that sounds like a very one-sided ganging-up on Brazil, I think that if you're going to implement Emergencies at all, you have to make sure that the civ that's actually a massive threat can lose. And if there is a high-threat civ, the other players/AI should be working to stop it anyway. What, the AI aren't going to gang up on you until a special "emergency" happens? Why aren't they trying to win the game instead?

As implemented, the goal of an Emergency doesn't change much overall. The video today that showed AI Mongolia screwing around its troops instead of committing to the Emergency just continues to prove that the #1 reason the AI continues to lose consistently is because the AI produces units and then can't fight its way out of a paper bag.

That's why, considering the state of the AI and the game in general, the idea of "microvictories" at least seems like something the AI could work to achieve. Otherwise, I expect the AI to fail almost any Emergency if a human player is opposing it.

Your idea sounds quite good. I don’t know if from a programming perspective it would be possible.

AI frustrations aside, the major gameplay benefit of the emergency is that it guarantees the player that the respective other civs are not going to bother you whilst you conquer the civ. It’s more of a diplomacy thing than anything else.

Having said that, I’m sure someone will mod emergencies to be more of what you suggest.

 

[Arianrhod]

Yeah, it's an old matter at this point but I still fully agree that "Water Park" is a really dumb name that doesn't evoke what the district is trying to be at all.

Yes, the district is a park, that is on water. But the conventional use of "water park" every time I've heard it is a park that is themed around water rather than on it. I'm personally partial to just calling it the Boardwalk district -- it's a bit of an Americanism, but it's very succinct and cool-sounding. Entertainment Pier or Amusement Pier would be a bit more general and still much more accurate than what we have now, at the cost of being a bit of a mouthful.

 

[sonicmyst]

Just finished watching.
Aside from the points mentioned by others about AI possibly not achieving their emergency mission towards the human target, what bothers me is the Spy mission to CS. If Fabricate Scandal is a repeatable mission, and if as I understood, it removes some envoys to the top civ, then repeating the mission could eventually lead to lack of envoys at all. Or am I missing something? Is there a mechanic to replenish envoys if you have already finished all the civics?

 

[Ondolindë]

And it cuts both ways. Join an emergency you have no hope of contributing to because its too far away, and maybe an ai completes for you. Or am I reading the posts incorrectly?

I get what you mean, and yes, we could also benefit from it if we come to support an emergency but choose not to participate actively in one for whatever reason. Anton said that is anyone's option. But my two points are: 1) it seems that the AI may not be well suited yet to play this mechanic, but it just seems so because, indeed, Genghis Khan was far away, etc., but he had some units there that although they managed to attack, seemed not concerned about liberating Kabul per se. Granted that we did not see everything he was doing there while the Devs were playing in other parts of the map. I just want to see if the AI will frequently react that way and under what difficulty and conditions. 2) So, we have to see how they do once we play them (first hand experience). For some gamers who are more skeptical about the AI's ability to manage these additional mechanisms, they have already said that they will wait and see what the reviews will say or/and what players will show in their games on YouTube. As far as my opinion is concerned, I am cautious but optimistic about the AI's ability to use these new mechanisms well and that is based on over a year of issues that although they have gotten better, still the game doesn't feel right, and certainly I am not looking for perfection anymore as I have come to understand that that is the way games are nowadays. So, all these things sound exciting and will be exciting, especially, if mods accompany them, but we shall see soon enough how the AI will manage them. I hope they will surprise us and kick our behinds. We would then have to become better strategic players and that is always fun to tackle.

 

[nzcamel]

I'm ecstatic about the backstab emergency. I am so sick of the AI DoW'ing me the turn our alliance expires (I'm looking at you, Dom Pedro), so I'm glad the rest of the world will finally hate those treacherous snakes for doing it.

I now have a policy of declining his invitations. But Teddy and Mvemba have done the same thing to me.


That's exactly how Anton described it. Remember that you can't declare war while Declared Friends or Allied--you have to wait until those expire. So yes, that is indeed backstabbing.

I dont't get it? You mean that a backstab in civ 6 is not making a new alliance when it expires ? same with friendship?

In civ 5 a backstab is when you declare or denounce a person who you are friends with.

In civ 6 you can't denounce or declare war if you are friends or a ally.

the big question is what causes the emergency? The decleration during a friendship (now added in expansion) or not accepting a new alliance after one is expired

You have to admit that it's pretty sleazy to declare a surprise war against someone you've recently been in an alliance with. And yeah, there's no denouncing or declaring war against a declared friend/ally in Civ6, so backstabbing is declaring war immediately after an alliance expires (and I've had several AI leaders do this to me, and it's very vexing).

Well but i thinx that situation will not trigger the emergency unfortunately

its probably because of the joint war option wich is broken Ai doesn't consider relationship when accepting a war.

But that is exactly the situation that Anton described...

Unless they removed that mechanic. (since this game has only two ways of "backstabbing" as of now: breaking promises and declaring surprise wars)

Well. I'm confused. I hope it isn't that they can break alliances etc as that would be another layer of frustration on top of the joint war work around. Likewise though I can see it being confusing at what point once one is out of those relationship that war is declarable without extra repercussion.

While there's logic to the way it is, that your 30 turn dec friendship ends before your alliance adds to the mess. I think alliances should automatically extend the dec of friendship to around 10 turns longer than the alliance itself will last.

 

[bbbt]

Just finished watching.
Aside from the points mentioned by others about AI possibly not achieving their emergency mission towards the human target, what bothers me is the Spy mission to CS. If Fabricate Scandal is a repeatable mission, and if as I understood, it removes some envoys to the top civ, then repeating the mission could eventually lead to lack of envoys at all. Or am I missing something? Is there a mechanic to replenish envoys if you have already finished all the civics?

Yeah I'm wondering if the mission just 'returns' the envoys to the owner on a cool down timer (ala the governor assassination mission), otherwise it would be ridiculously strong compared to how infrequently they are accrued.

 

[conorbebe]

The 9 tile range on the “Water Park” (please change) seems a bit excessive, especially considering it can probably be built on lake tiles too.

Also curious that there’s been no change to Tamar considering I’ve seen more backlash against her depiction than Seondeok’s. And I can’t imagine changing the tone of her skin colour requires that much work.

 

[stealth_nsk]

The 9 tile range on the “Water Park” (please change) seems a bit excessive, especially considering it can probably be built on lake tiles too.

Case with lakes is interesting, but considering how late the Water park comes in and not so wide lake availability, it looks ok to me.

 

[leandrombraz]

The 9 tile range on the “Water Park” (please change) seems a bit excessive, especially considering it can probably be built on lake tiles too.

Also curious that there’s been no change to Tamar considering I’ve seen more backlash against her depiction than Seondeok’s. And I can’t imagine changing the tone of her skin colour requires that much work.

The 9 tiles range is strong but not as strong as the fact that it stack with entertainment districts.

 

[pietro1990]

Just finished watching.
Aside from the points mentioned by others about AI possibly not achieving their emergency mission towards the human target, what bothers me is the Spy mission to CS. If Fabricate Scandal is a repeatable mission, and if as I understood, it removes some envoys to the top civ, then repeating the mission could eventually lead to lack of envoys at all. Or am I missing something? Is there a mechanic to replenish envoys if you have already finished all the civics?

My concern isn't the spy mission itself. My concern are not able to use a spy as counter epsionage at a city state.

Remember at civ 5 that having a spy in a city state doesn't mean it will increase the change of the enemy spy not suceeding in a coup it just rigged election and if you did that more then enemy spie then he has a lower change of succeeding.

The problem with the coup mechanic was that it was way to easy to not fail. Just buy influence and when you are verry close do a coup.

If in civ 6 you have a high change of faillure and even more if a enemy spie is in the city state then its a fine mechanic if not then its going to be annoying

 

[Haig]

They said there's new livestream next week, nice!

 

[DJ_Tanner]

I'll want to review that stream again. but after taking a step away from it, I'm not convinced that Emergencies, as designed, is going to effectively stop a runaway AI as was marketed.

I don't think they were ever intended to stop a runaway, nor really should they. A rubberband to snap back someone just because they are doing well really sucks for the person doing the right things. However, the mechanic should help keep people from running away a bit in the first place or, if failed, give them a slingshot into the lead.