DG4 -- Defining our provinces

[FionnMcCumhall]

Yes the dreaded defining our provinces discussion again.

Assuming we decide to move the goverors to exectuive status and give mayers build queue responsibilities (which i oppose), we should define our provinces very clearly in our upcoming ruleset.

I am in favor of a province with a maximum of 10 cities and a minimum of 10 cities. But this is a discussion so im sure others favor more or less. by having 5-10 cities per province we can make sure the governors/mayors can spend great time in details in regards to queues and micromanagement, plus it may open up more provinces.

On other note why do we have to call them provinces this time, why not states?

 

[zorven]

A min of 5 and max of 10 sounds fine to me. I think anything larger than 10 becomes quite a handful for the governors.

 

[Fier Canadien]

Having lived trough the Cælian/Aventine nightmare (hey, try to make build queues for cities that nobody is sure to whom they belong…), i'd say that we do as in DG2: we decide of provincial borders before settling/conquering them.

Then, for a governor, 10 to 12 cities is a fine, just not too big, number.

 

[Rik Meleet]

As an experienced Governor of a province with 12 cities and as Domestic Leader in a term when 2 provinces were Governor-less I can assure you that managing provinces that big is a time-consuming task. At least if you want to do it properly.

I'd go for small provinces, based on 6-8 cities (although the exact number always is hard to predict).

 

[donsig]

I do not see the need to determine the number of cities per province at this point. Do we even know what size map we'll be playing on? We should simply invest either the president or the domestic leader (just one of them to be decided before we play) with the authority to define provinces, either by stating which cities are in which provinces or by actually fixing provincial borders. We need someone to define borders right away without discussion and polling. This does not take power away from citizens for they can 1) create laws defining parameters to be followed when creating provinces and 2) citizens can always go through the old process of discussion and polling to change borders. In the meantime by letting the appropriate official set the provinces we have something to work with right away.

 

[FionnMcCumhall]

best to get a discussion going now than later, we can always return to it later

 

[Octavian X]

I agree with donsig.

We need to pick a leader, and give him definite power over province definition, and the record-keeping responsibilities that go with that.

If the domestic office was given this job, it'd also be handy to give that office sole power over vacant governorships. Nearing the end of the game, we have many provinces which become difficult to fill. If we gave the domestic office sole power to fill vacancies (with regular elections as prescribed by law), this ineffciency could be reduced.

 

[FortyJ]

Doesn't the Domestic Leader have enough to do already? Why not share the wealth a little?

Giving control over the definition of the provinical borders can easily go to the Senate/Governors. This would make those positions much more interesting and perhaps even make the Congressional threads more interesting for a change.

Also, doing so may just salvage the position of the governors since there is some discussion about removing their only responsibility in the game, the production queues, and giving that power to the mayors. Allowing the senate/governors to control the provincial borders (and potentially the right to redefine them at any time) would make for a much more involved senate and a more enjoyable demogame experience.

 

[donsig]

Giving control of province making to a committee of any kind will not be much better than the old way. We need one person to do it so it can be done fast. I agree that the domestic advisor already has too much power. Let the president define the provinces and be done with it.

 

[zorven]

If we have one leader define provinces, I would like to see it given to the Culture Dept.

 

[Bootstoots]

Let's not give the province-defining power to any one leader in particular, but a few of them. And I don't think it should be by committee either, but that several leaders should have the authority to make an official proposal. They could include:

-The President
-The Domestic Leader
-The Cultural Leader
-The Governor of the province in question, if there was a governor before the borders were defined (as was the case in Quirnial and Caelian this game).

 

[FortyJ]

In DG2, several border proposals were submitted by individuals not holding office. I don't see any benefit to restricting that right to a handful of elected officials.

Also, I must be missing something, but what is the reason for needing borders defined quickly? The only reason I can think of is to define which cities are controlled by which Governors. Now, if this responsibility is moved from the Governors to the Mayorial level, the need for a quick resolution of provincial borders becomes moot. If that responsibility remains with the governors, then who better to define those provinces than the individuals that need to have that issue resolved? It can't be any slower than DG1, or DG2, or DG3.

Of course, we could just place this responsibility with the Cartographic Office and let that poor sap (ahem... respected citizen) solicit border proposals and coordinate the discussion threads and appropriate polls as needed throughout the game.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by FortyJ
In DG2, several border proposals were submitted by individuals not holding office. I don't see any benefit to restricting that right to a handful of elected officials.

Also, I must be missing something, but what is the reason for needing borders defined quickly? The only reason I can think of is to define which cities are controlled by which Governors. Now, if this responsibility is moved from the Governors to the Mayorial level, the need for a quick resolution of provincial borders becomes moot.

If mayors are to do build queues, will we also have deputy mayors? What happens when a city does not have a mayor? I do not ask these questions to put down the idea of mayors doing the queues - I like that idea. But we need back up. Governors filling in for absent mayors makes sense. So, yes, the reason for quick borders is so that we know which governors control which cities. In times of conquest or expansion we tend to accumulate cities much faster than we can collectively define borders. The suggestion is not to restrict the right to a handful of individuals. The idea is to let one official set borders right away so we have something to work with now. While the official would not be bound by any proposals by anyone else, it may well make sense for him or her to consider the proposals. Also, the citizens can always make *laws* guiding the official. For example a law can be passed saying a province can have a certian maximum number of cities. Also, once the official sets the borders, they are not carved in stone for the citizens can pass a *law* to change any borders!

Haven't I said all this before?

 

[FortyJ]

Ok.... What you have said makes sense, but you haven't convinced me that letting one individual define the borders is better than letting the governors do it - especially since they will be the ones directly benefiting from the prompt definition of those borders.

 

[Cyc]

I say we just do what we did in DG1. We sectioned off the known land in 126 land tile parcels. Doing this in a logical order or layout promotes equality in Province size and usually in the number of cities in each Province. All coastal and sea tiles are a bonus and not counted in the original mapping. Lakes are otional. The 126 land tile amount can even be increased or decreased per Province to accomodate a small land mass. But the 126 gives enough land for 5 full cities, maybe 6 if they are laid out right. And maps are a lot easier to make because you understand the area of the next Province or two before they are mapped out. Because the format of the Provinces are known to all, anyone can submit a map proposal.

 

[FionnMcCumhall]

oh i like that idea

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by FortyJ
Ok.... What you have said makes sense, but you haven't convinced me that letting one individual define the borders is better than letting the governors do it - especially since they will be the ones directly benefiting from the prompt definition of those borders.

How do we let the governors do it? Will they be elected before the provinces are created? Will each governor make his own province? Will the governors have to agree collectively? For this to be fast one person has to do it.

Here's another idea. Let's create an office of provincial creation and elect one person to be in charge of the initial creation of provinces for the entire game. (I nominate Cyc. )

 

[FortyJ]

You have to go and find a problem with my suggestion.... I'm still thinking along the lines of my proposed senate (where the number of senators is defined by the census, not by the number of provinces).

PS. I'll second that nomination.

 

[DaveShack]

Originally posted by Cyc
I say we just do what we did in DG1. We sectioned off the known land in 126 land tile parcels.

This is the first alternative I've heard which addresses the problems I saw during DG3. Most of the disagreements were on how borders should be drawn -- straight line, following natural landscape borders, etc. A geometric arrangement could be used to divide the border process into two parts:

• Initially, a geometic grid defines which city locations are in which provinces / states
• After cities are placed, aesthetic border considerations can be taken into account, as long as the city does not change provinces / states

Expanding on this a little, another idea is we can elect governors to provinces which have no cities yet, and distribute the domestic responsibility for choosing city sites to the governors of the empty provinces.

 

[donsig]

@DaveShack: I don't give a rat's behind what the provinces end up looking like. All I want is for provinces to be made quickly and the best way to do that is to have ONE responsible person make the initial call. That will give us something to work with right away and the citizens can always discuss and poll to make any changes they desire in the borders.

The only other idea about provinces I'd like to bring up concerns having one good province and the rest corrupt provinces. Can't we construct our provinces so that they form wedges around our capital - so that each province contains a more or less equal amount of core and corrupt cities?