His original plan was not to kill all jews, but to send them to Madagascar. Ribbentrop himself was in charge of that plan. When the war started, however, the Nazis decided to spend the least money possible in "the jewish question". That's when they created the "Final Solution". Some say Hitler decided to terminate all european jews because he blamed them for turning America against Germany. In fact, there is a famous Hitler speech in wich he warns american jews not to turn America against the Reich: otherwise, in his words, "the jewsih race would be vanquished of Europe". Since Hitler was a maniac, it's perfectly possible that he actually believed the jews were to blame for the war.
-
We are currently performing site maintenance, parts of civfanatics are currently offline, but will come back online in the coming days (this includes any time you see the message "account suspended"). For more updates please see here.
Did Hitler always intend to kill the Jews?
- Thread starter phoenix_night
- Start date
Darth_Pugwash
wobble wobble
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2003
- Messages
- 2,873
Yep, Hitler began to really hate jews, instead of just using them as a scapegoat, long before the war, probably during the late 20's and early 30's. This hatred entrenched itself deeper and deeper in Hitlers mind throughout the 30's and 40's.
Which leads to the question was the final solution a plan Hitler had prepared before the war, and was it one of the major factors of Hitler's decsision to start the war, particularly in the east? Did Hitler plan to attempt killing all of Europes Jewish population, or expell them from the Third Reich? Or was the holocaust a bi-product of the war and the effect it had on Hitler?
I am unsure, though at the moment i would tend to think that Hitler's plans for the Jews, the final solution, however vague those plans were in 1939, were a factor in Hitler's descision.
Which leads to the question was the final solution a plan Hitler had prepared before the war, and was it one of the major factors of Hitler's decsision to start the war, particularly in the east? Did Hitler plan to attempt killing all of Europes Jewish population, or expell them from the Third Reich? Or was the holocaust a bi-product of the war and the effect it had on Hitler?
I am unsure, though at the moment i would tend to think that Hitler's plans for the Jews, the final solution, however vague those plans were in 1939, were a factor in Hitler's descision.
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
If you believe that Hitler was not a rabid anti-Semite in reality and just a political opportunist, why did he keep the extermination camps operating even towards the end of the war?
Darth_Pugwash
wobble wobble
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2003
- Messages
- 2,873
I do believe Hitler was a rabid anti semite. I was just trying to make the point that he was not always a rabid anti semite. That his anti semitism was kindled by the political fashions in Germany at the time, and that at first, in the early 20's, Hitler conformed to (and later encouraged, for different reasons) anti semitism to gain popularity. By the 30's he had spiraled downwards to the point that he had convinced himself that what he had been saying was true, hence the steps taken to isolate and remove the Jews from Germanic society during the 30's.
What i am trying to say is that he began the 20's conforming to anti semitism to gain popularity politicly, and ended the 40's as a rabid anti semite.
And rmsharpe, by the end of the war Hitler had totally lost his mind, in May 1945 he was giving orders to divisions that had ceased to exist. He was also a rabid anti semite.
What i am trying to say is that he began the 20's conforming to anti semitism to gain popularity politicly, and ended the 40's as a rabid anti semite.
And rmsharpe, by the end of the war Hitler had totally lost his mind, in May 1945 he was giving orders to divisions that had ceased to exist. He was also a rabid anti semite.
There's also the point that Hitler was very strongly anti-Communist and anti-socialist. Many prominent Communists and socialists were Jewish (starting with Karl Marx) and before WW2 it was fashionable to "blame" Communism/socialism on Jews.
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
It is quite true the Jews were used as scapegoats.
But the 'endloesung' or 'holocaust' were well kept secrets! The whole operation was strictly secret. The average german knew that jews weren't treated well, but knew nothing about a sytematical murdering system.
After the war, at the Nuernberg trials, several topshot Nazis estimated the jewish victims on 200.000..... The simply did not believe there was a 0 missing at least. The allied judges first thought they were fooled, but later they found out it was all top secret.
NB: killing 200.000 seems so few when re-reading my post.... By no means it is of course!
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
The term Endloesung, or final solution, is used for the systematical murder on all European Jews. The holocaust is a bit broader. The 'Einsatzgruppe' of which G-Man is talking about were indeed used to kill Jews in espacially Poland and Soviet Republics.
The order for the Endloesung it self, meaning the deportation and murdering of all jews in all of the occupied areas (Holland, Belgium, France, including more or less colaborating countries (Hungary, Romania, Slovakia) was given by Hitler / Himmler at the Warnsee conference, which was in spring 1942, iirc. It was carried out by Heidrich and Eichmann.
According to several whitnesses, Hitler's hatred towards Jews was real. From somewhere in the beginnign of the 20s, he was convinced there should not be Jews in (Greater) Germany. During the 30s there were indeed plans to found a Jewish nation on Madagaskar. Also, zionism was sponsored by an SD-program. Ironically, this was the task of Adolf Eichmann somewhere in the 30s.
Once the war had started and not easily won by the Germans, murdering all Jews seemed to be the only option left, in the bizar view of Hitler and Himmler.....
Final note: The document made at the Warnsee conference, was never found after the war. It has probably been destroyed. Both Dieter Wislency in 1945/46 and Eichmann in 1960/61 testified they had seen the order.
Hurricane
Sleeping Dragon
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2001
- Messages
- 1,197
TrailblazingScot
I was kittenOFchaos
Well.
There is the possibility that he was:
1. Mad as a loon.
2. Had abdicated entirely the running of such things to men such as Himmler.
3. Was increasingly vengeful as Germany was losing the War. Hell, he had given orders to Albert Speer to turn Germany a desert and was of the opinion that the German Race should give way to the Slav as they had failed to prevail.
But, I think he was anti-Semitic and that there was no justification for that, however it was an extremely popular viewpoint.
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
There is quite some difference between 'just being anti-semitic' and ordering all Jews to be murdered.
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
Didn't know that..... I read Richard Overy's 'interrogations' and I remember it wasn't there. These interrogations are about 1946, but he still could have noted they were found later.
Maybe he did and I did misread. Quite possible, since the book does not need to be read in the right order...
interesting movie about the warnsee conference, to watch them split hairs and talk around the subject with very pc language when they all knew why they were there and all agreed with it is almost funny ( exept that you know what they were really talking about-killing millions)
Similar threads
