Did I win?

rewster1 · Dec 22, 2016

RedKi-rr said:
Well...It looks so great! And also the size of city is already 5. How did you do it? Did you build a settler and then settled it in the city?

hehe thanks. It looks better than it is though. Only a single militia has ever been built, with one shield in the box. I call the "technique" We Hate the Despot Day. I worked the two fish squares until pop 3, raised lux enough to celebrate, and then set lux to zero and walked the militia one square away. Going straight from wltkd to disorder keeps the increased food so you can grow rapidly, and cities in disorder still produce bulbs. Some micro to prevent wasted bulbs or wasted grains and this was the result. Tomorrow I'll see if I can get anywhere with this save.

RedKi-rr · Dec 23, 2016

rewster1 said:
hehe thanks. It looks better than it is though. Only a single militia has ever been built, with one shield in the box. I call the "technique" We Hate the Despot Day. I worked the two fish squares until pop 3, raised lux enough to celebrate, and then set lux to zero and walked the militia one square away. Going straight from wltkd to disorder keeps the increased food so you can grow rapidly, and cities in disorder still produce bulbs. Some micro to prevent wasted bulbs or wasted grains and this was the result. Tomorrow I'll see if I can get anywhere with this save

You know...actually this is something really really new for me :thumbsup:

Every time when I think that nothing can wonder me in Civ1...Something wonders :crazyeye:

Did you found out this trick with the Despot Day b yourself? :thumbsup:

rewster1 · Dec 28, 2016

RedKi-rr said:
You know...actually this is something really really new for me Every time when I think that nothing can wonder me in Civ1...Something wonders Did you found out this trick with the Despot Day b yourself?

A few years ago, yes. I was shocked too. It seems the check for disorder is ahead of the check for WLTKD, so the second check is only done if not in disorder. It happens in any government, except Democracy I suppose. The only benefit in Republic is that you can, say, celebrate right after building a temple, then go straight to disorder when you can't grow anymore, then when you research mysticism, you can fix your lux and grow that same turn (you're still in WLTPD). If you are in a monarchy, you still get the extra arrows while your citizens shout angrily at you. :aargh:

I'm just getting back to playing this after :xmastree:

, maybe I'll have something worthwhile tomorrow.

rewster1 · Dec 30, 2016

I didn't know it was possible but you can get Republic too early. The above method has merits, but to the extreme I used it, it left me a bunch of shields behind a normal start. I managed to get banking by 1800 with it, but when I stopped to build, it took so long to get everything built that I was struggling to finish and just missed Copernicus by 500.
I went back and tried a somewhat different approach, growing to 3 with a little production to pump a settler at the sweet spot (size 3 plus 30 grains). This worked fabulously, as I could do We Hate the Despot as soon as the settler was built, to quickly grow to size 4, then switch off the deer square to all ocean squares, getting Republic at the "checkpoint" date of 2660 but with well developed land.
Normally that's not a big deal, but with the aggressive Zulu, it's better if you can get the outside squares all improved so that once you make peace the first time and buy their initial intruder, they leave your borders alone and have no way of demanding to talk to you. I kept in disorder until mysticism, then built a temple and got to size 9 while building a library. I stored up some cash and then went into disorder again until I had banking and construction.
Researched Astronomy in 720BC and Copernicus was built the next turn, which is a huge improvement.

I was at size 23 with 3 caravans, building a boat and researching bridge building (3 techs away from RR) at 1AD.
RR by 340AD. So overall, about a 200 year improvement.

RedKi-rr · Dec 30, 2016

Just Fantastic! I think you are ont the way to find an optimal strategy for OCC Emperor. :thumbsup:

rewster1 · Jan 3, 2017

I wonder if it isn't yet another exploit though. I don't think it was an intended feature. Disorder is supposed to make things worse, although it seems like they did allow for it to be used to maximize research in a city. Using it for growth, when WLTKD is supposed to be for growth, seems a tad broken.

Autumn Leaf · Jan 3, 2017

It's definitely an exploit, the way you are using it. There are a lot of things in Civ1 that were introduced for one purpose but turn out to have unintended consequences. Fast Settlers. Shipchains. By definition a city should not gain the benefits of WLTKD if it is in disorder. It shouldn't produce coins, shields or lightbulbs. For whatever reason, the game checks for disorder before WLTKD and saved a little processing by skipping the WLTKD check if in disorder, and also allows lightbulbs to accrue during disorder. Deliberately inducing disorder to take advantage of this is exploiting it.

How you respond is up to you. I personally play some games where I rigidly play "by the rules", and others where I cheerfully use exploits and hacks to make amusing things happen. The ultimate point is that it's a game. Play it however it makes you happiest.

Mize · Jan 3, 2017

Autumn Leaf said:
It shouldn't produce coins, shields or lightbulbs.

I don't think bulbs should be included here. After all luxury diamonds are still produced in disorder, right? My point is that the generation of lightbulbs during disorder is probably intetional. Just a thought.

Autumn Leaf · Jan 4, 2017

After all luxury diamonds are still produced in disorder, right?

Yep, but they aren't bulbs. A typical way to get diamonds is to create Entertainers. It doesn't help the civilization, just helps the city restore order. Food is also still produced in disorder (people gotta eat even in a depression or revolution) but it doesn't help the civilization. You can rush a building such as a Temple (and I'll grant that some other buildings can help the civilization, not just the city) but not a military unit, not even a Militia, under Disorder.

Like Taxes and Shields, Bulbs represent a contribution to the civilization and that's exactly what is not supposed to happen during disorder. However, as I also said, "For whatever reason, the game ... allows lightbulbs". Game's gonna game.

It's aside from the main point I was actually making, which is that deliberately inducing disorder to lock in the benefits of WLTK is an exploit. I don't have a problem with it but rewster1 is obviously conflicted about it.

Tristan_C · Jan 4, 2017

Can you rush a caravan, diplomat, or settler? These are a different kind of unit, for some purposes, because they generate a message box when built and prevent tech discoveries from occurring within the city on that turn.

Autumn Leaf · Jan 5, 2017

No units of any sort can be built in a disordered city. *

* Edited to add - but you can build spaceship parts :crazyeye:

rewster1 · Jan 6, 2017

I'm only conflicted as pertains to the ground rules laid out in this thread for these games we are sharing. If playing on my own, I'd use it at will, along with railroading the seas. But I just wanted to put an asterisk on that "200 year" improvement I gained by using it, showing that it is only because of this exploit I discovered.

Autumn Leaf · Jan 7, 2017

I'm not playing those games but it sounds fair enough to me.

Actually I reread the initial post in this thread today (your Earth/English game) and thought trying Emperor OCC in a high-trade England might be interesting. I picked a game where I got a good start - three techs (BW, CB, Pottery) - and by going two squares north before settling, I had a 4-fish London (as opposed to your 3). Against this, the Russians, Germans, Chinese and Mongols must have got got 2 Settlers each because looking at 3980 BC, their capitals already have 2 population. So it was always going to be a fast-paced game.

Going north cost me two turns and two grasslands on the French coast, but in compensation I got that 4th fish and the hills of the Scottish Highlands to mine. I also got a city square with a resource and a NONE Cavalry from a goodie hut on Sherwood Forest.

As opportunity arose I used Fast Settlers, railroaded the sea, and also railroaded my city square (it annoyed me for years that I couldn't do that so I was really happy when someone came up with a patch to enable it). I built a Settler early to road and irrigate my island, then added him back into my city. A Diplomat on a round-the-world tour picked up a Barbarian Sail and Legion plus an Aztec Settler during his travels. I later used these for railroad work. I didn't use ship-chains, just transported Caravans across the Atlantic as fast as I could, a shipload at a time. (I established my initial trade routes with Russian Europe because all I had were Triremes. I was startled at the end of the game to see that the Aztecs actually discovered Trade first). I was building Caravans every turn or every other turn for a while depending whether new technology was imminent, and tried to time my Caravan convoys so that they arrived on the same turns that I built a Caravan, hoping that if I had enough beakers I'd get an advance next turn. But I lost a few turns of technology from 160 BC to 1 AD because I stupidly turned my Luxuries up to try to get MOAR WLTPD and forgot to turn them back down again, leaving nothing for science.

Long story short, I built Apollo in 1505 with about 2700 in the treasury. I only had enough Caravans stockpiled to rush Apollo, the minimum Modules and a couple of Components. After that I had to rely on taxes. With Taxes at 90% (10% Luxuries) I was bringing in about 200 coins on average, which just about covered a Barracks (160 coins) topped up up to a Granary (+40 coins) per turn. With a Mfg. Plant I was generating 22 shields per turn, and since I'd scrapped my Transports I was spending a total of one shield to maintain a single Mech. Inf., so I could sustainably build a Structural every turn. I panicked a bit when the Aztecs started building their own spaceship and I realised I needed a third Fuel+Propulsion and had no Caravans left, but I but sold my Aqueduct (should have done that earlier) and managed to squeak by. My spaceship launched 1725, landed 1740. The Aztecs discovered Robotics about 1720 but hadn't built any modules when I landed. But you did better than me despite my extra fish.

Spoiler Replay :

RedKi-rr · Jan 9, 2017

rewster1 said:
I'm only conflicted as pertains to the ground rules laid out in this thread for these games we are sharing. If playing on my own, I'd use it at will, along with railroading the seas. But I just wanted to put an asterisk on that "200 year" improvement I gained by using it, showing that it is only because of this exploit I discovered.

Do you think that it is similar to railroading the seas?

BtW, if you played Civ 3, it has an inbetween turns playing which allows and additional coin input (for example in the end of turn the city gives production, but in the beginning of the next turn you can switch it to the commerce output).

Personally, I am not sure whether I would consider as an exploit for my OCC game. In some sense it looks like exploit, but on the other hand it is thing which potentially can be done by a new player. I mean, a new player cannot railroad ocean (since it is contr-intuitive), but can reasearch Republic and then go to permanent anarchy (since he doesn't know how to handle it). So, this thing wasn't fixed in the latest patch? Anyway, I would say that it is quite interesting feature for OCC games (at least if to play with no Colossus/Gold mine), however it is not that straightforward like incremental rushbuying (which is widely accepted).

rewster1 · Jan 9, 2017

Autumn Leaf, I actually had found a four fish save, just before my final (successful) attempt at Earth English OCC. So it may just be tech order or minor things that made the difference. Actually, I see you discovered comm/labor union, the whole nuke path, conscription, and steel/auto/mass production. I avoided all of those, to cut down on tech time.
On the other hand, you had 22 shields which is more than double the 10 I had, at the expense of 1 less pop, some building maintenance, and probably some pollution although you probably built mass transit to fix most of that. I relied on cash to rush buy barracks, to get a caravan every other turn, rather than build up industry. Also I rush bought barracks, then library to build structurals in one turn (until cash slowly ran out), mfg plant for modules and power plant for components.

RedKi-rr, I think researching while in disorder is fine, there are probably situations where it is the only thing that can help a city recover from disorder. It's just the extra food (or even arrows) from WLTDD, which should logically not exist when in fact everyone is hating the despot. Saving the single turn of WLTPD when researching mysticism is hardly a game changer, you get 1 turn of lux back as research. But extra arrows in Monarchy would be a huge deal if you were to use monarchy, and extra food in despotism is somewhere between but still good enough to make quite an impact.

Maybe I don't have the latest patch? I've never actually checked. It says 475.01 when I start.

RR the ocean may not be intuitive, but I discovered it myself back in the 90s, so it is at least a repeatable thing (finding out it is possible, I mean).

I'm trying out the Russian save now... but maybe we should do one more after, where we allow everything, just to see who can figure out the best combination of exploits to use? :mischief:

Did I win?

rewster1

Warlord

RedKi-rr

Prince

rewster1

Warlord

rewster1

Warlord

RedKi-rr

Prince

rewster1

Warlord

Autumn Leaf

Since 1992

Mize

Prince

Autumn Leaf

Since 1992

Tristan_C

Emperor

Autumn Leaf

Since 1992

rewster1

Warlord

Autumn Leaf

Since 1992

RedKi-rr

Prince

rewster1

Warlord

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