Cheetah
Deity
There's no evidence our social groups changed in any significant way between 50kya and the Neolithic.It makes sense to me that war would become possible as soon as complex enough social groups started forming. And they don't have to be very complex at all for you to get tribes and "enemy tribes" and wars between them over territory or whatever.
Is there any evidence that Chimps populations are more dense today than before, instead of simply being reduced in numbers as their available territory shrunk?You guys keep talking about chimp Warfare but it's important to remember that we have no idea how chimps lived thousands of years ago before we started pushing them into smaller and smaller and more degraded territories.
It's speculated that chimps only stated "warring" due to modern pressures.
Well, no. I am postulating that observed behaviour of Chimps and Bonobos indicate that Chimp behaviour matches much more closely with human behaviour. I then extrapolate and assume that prehistoric humans would might to some degree have acted in ways we would recognize from modern day Chimps.In other words, your conclusion demands that we be more like chimps than like Bonobos, so you assume it.
They are explanations of why, though maybe not very well articulated. Fire occurs naturally, and as we found that fire can be beneficial, we started making fire as soon as we were able to. Sedentary life was an evolutionary process, where agriculture and livestock gradually made settling down more viable than moving around. And settling down is preferable to humans, as having to constantly move around puts a limit on how many possessions we can acquire, and how many small children we can have -- or keep! With sedentary life more possessions, more food and more people became the norm, and with complex societies it became necessary to keep count in some way. What started out as keeping small pieces of pottery in groups ended up as writing, as each new iteration proved a little better at record keeping.These are not really explanations for why these things happened, though, not in the same sense you seem to want an explanation for why war began happening. They're just different ways of stating what happened. The truth is we have no idea, in specific terms, why we started using fire or writing or settling down.Fire was something we started with when our brains grew complex enough to understand and transfer the knowledge of how to make fire. Sedentary life came about when we learned how to grow food instead of having to hunt and forage, and writing was an evolutionary process from creating markings and accounting to eventually representing complex and abstract thoughts.
I can not see how we would go from no wars to wars being a fact of life. If the argument is that there were no reason to wage war, then I will counter that a simple conflict over hunting grounds could be ample reason. If the argument is that there were not enough people to wage war, then I would counter that certain areas did have quite high population densities even during hunter-gathering days (NW Pacific coast, Japan, etc.). If the argument is that we need complex sedentary societies to wage war, then I would counter with examples like the massacre in Kenya from 13kya.
If the argument is that human nature somehow changed in the last ten thousand years, then I feel deserving of at least one plausible hypothesis for that position.
I resent the idea that I'm heading an argument from ignorance. I am simply arguing for h0: that war is a product of our individual ability to do violence and our social skills of organising groups, and against h1: that war is something special that was somehow was invented in the last ten thousand years.*shrug* I don't think the origins of war are fully understood. But this is a textbook argument from ignorance - that I can't give a definitive answer doesn't mean that war then must have been fought into the distant past.
I think sedentism probably has something to do with it. One plausible explanation is that war arose among sedentary communities and then spread culturally to hunter-gatherer groups - we know that cultural exchange between nomads and farmers played a huge role in much of premodern Eurasian history so that doesn't seem like a big stretch to me. Certainly cultural militarism appears to be a development linked to the onset of civilization/agriculture.
Doing a bit of research, I found this interesting paragraph:
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/18294
There is also this bit from Margaret Mead that I think is relevant even if it doesn't answer your question:
As for the Eskimo analysis: Perhaps there simply aren't large enough groups of people around, or enough value in it, to wage wars? I do know that there were warfare between the Norse colonies on Greenland and the "Eskimo" natives (Eskimos are, iirc, a newer group of North American natives which invaded/immigrated to Greenland around the 1500s). So when the conditions were right, they did wage war.
The rest of the quotes you found seem to support h0?