Did Pre-Historic Humans Fight Wars? How Often and Why?

It makes sense to me that war would become possible as soon as complex enough social groups started forming. And they don't have to be very complex at all for you to get tribes and "enemy tribes" and wars between them over territory or whatever.
There's no evidence our social groups changed in any significant way between 50kya and the Neolithic.

You guys keep talking about chimp Warfare but it's important to remember that we have no idea how chimps lived thousands of years ago before we started pushing them into smaller and smaller and more degraded territories.

It's speculated that chimps only stated "warring" due to modern pressures.
Is there any evidence that Chimps populations are more dense today than before, instead of simply being reduced in numbers as their available territory shrunk?

In other words, your conclusion demands that we be more like chimps than like Bonobos, so you assume it.
Well, no. I am postulating that observed behaviour of Chimps and Bonobos indicate that Chimp behaviour matches much more closely with human behaviour. I then extrapolate and assume that prehistoric humans would might to some degree have acted in ways we would recognize from modern day Chimps.

Fire was something we started with when our brains grew complex enough to understand and transfer the knowledge of how to make fire. Sedentary life came about when we learned how to grow food instead of having to hunt and forage, and writing was an evolutionary process from creating markings and accounting to eventually representing complex and abstract thoughts.
These are not really explanations for why these things happened, though, not in the same sense you seem to want an explanation for why war began happening. They're just different ways of stating what happened. The truth is we have no idea, in specific terms, why we started using fire or writing or settling down.
They are explanations of why, though maybe not very well articulated. Fire occurs naturally, and as we found that fire can be beneficial, we started making fire as soon as we were able to. Sedentary life was an evolutionary process, where agriculture and livestock gradually made settling down more viable than moving around. And settling down is preferable to humans, as having to constantly move around puts a limit on how many possessions we can acquire, and how many small children we can have -- or keep! With sedentary life more possessions, more food and more people became the norm, and with complex societies it became necessary to keep count in some way. What started out as keeping small pieces of pottery in groups ended up as writing, as each new iteration proved a little better at record keeping.

I can not see how we would go from no wars to wars being a fact of life. If the argument is that there were no reason to wage war, then I will counter that a simple conflict over hunting grounds could be ample reason. If the argument is that there were not enough people to wage war, then I would counter that certain areas did have quite high population densities even during hunter-gathering days (NW Pacific coast, Japan, etc.). If the argument is that we need complex sedentary societies to wage war, then I would counter with examples like the massacre in Kenya from 13kya.

If the argument is that human nature somehow changed in the last ten thousand years, then I feel deserving of at least one plausible hypothesis for that position.

*shrug* I don't think the origins of war are fully understood. But this is a textbook argument from ignorance - that I can't give a definitive answer doesn't mean that war then must have been fought into the distant past.
I think sedentism probably has something to do with it. One plausible explanation is that war arose among sedentary communities and then spread culturally to hunter-gatherer groups - we know that cultural exchange between nomads and farmers played a huge role in much of premodern Eurasian history so that doesn't seem like a big stretch to me. Certainly cultural militarism appears to be a development linked to the onset of civilization/agriculture.

Doing a bit of research, I found this interesting paragraph:

https://muse.jhu.edu/article/18294



There is also this bit from Margaret Mead that I think is relevant even if it doesn't answer your question:
I resent the idea that I'm heading an argument from ignorance. I am simply arguing for h0: that war is a product of our individual ability to do violence and our social skills of organising groups, and against h1: that war is something special that was somehow was invented in the last ten thousand years.

As for the Eskimo analysis: Perhaps there simply aren't large enough groups of people around, or enough value in it, to wage wars? I do know that there were warfare between the Norse colonies on Greenland and the "Eskimo" natives (Eskimos are, iirc, a newer group of North American natives which invaded/immigrated to Greenland around the 1500s). So when the conditions were right, they did wage war.

The rest of the quotes you found seem to support h0?
 
@Cheetah
They are explanations of why, though maybe not very well articulated. Fire occurs naturally, and as we found that fire can be beneficial, we started making fire as soon as we were able to. Sedentary life was an evolutionary process, where agriculture and livestock gradually made settling down more viable than moving around. And settling down is preferable to humans, as having to constantly move around puts a limit on how many possessions we can acquire, and how many small children we can have -- or keep! With sedentary life more possessions, more food and more people became the norm, and with complex societies it became necessary to keep count in some way. What started out as keeping small pieces of pottery in groups ended up as writing, as each new iteration proved a little better at record keeping.

Again, you are just describing what happened rather than telling me why it happened. If settling down is just "preferable to humans", we'd expect it to have happened much earlier than it did.

I can not see how we would go from no wars to wars being a fact of life.

The same way we went from not having any other cultural invention, to their being ubiquitous or nearly so. We tend to describe all kinds of innovations, after the fact, as having had some clear utility or 'objective' attraction outside the realm of culture, but I'm not sure this is really the case. For example with fire we can clearly trace how our digestive systems evolved to deal with cooked food after we started controlling fire, so the idea that we started cooking our food because it we were better-suited to do that than to eat raw food in the beginning is clearly wrong.

I resent the idea that I'm heading an argument from ignorance.

But that is exactly what you're doing. You're saying that because I can't provide some explanation for how something occurred, it must not have occurred. It is more or less the same as saying the Big Bang couldn't have happened because I can't explain why that happened, either.

I am simply arguing for h0: that war is a product of our individual ability to do violence and our social skills of organising groups

Uh, I wouldn't disagree with this and don't see how it is mutually exclusive with h1. Nor do I see how war, in the case that h2 is true, would be any more 'special' than any other thing humans didn't do and then started doing.
If your argument is not something along the lines of 'war is something humans are doomed to because of our evolutionary biology,' then we may not have any real disagreements at all.

As for the Eskimo analysis: Perhaps there simply aren't large enough groups of people around, or enough value in it, to wage wars? I do know that there were warfare between the Norse colonies on Greenland and the "Eskimo" natives (Eskimos are, iirc, a newer group of North American natives which invaded/immigrated to Greenland around the 1500s). So when the conditions were right, they did wage war.

The rest of the quotes you found seem to support h0?

I was reading that Margaret Mead essay and an interesting bit jumped out again.
From instances like these it becomes apparent that an inquiry into the causes of war misses the fundamental point as completely as does an insistence upon the biological necessity of war. If a people have an idea of going to war and the idea that war is the way in which certain situations, defined within their society, are to be handled, they will sometimes go to war.

In other words, her argument is that the reasons for war are entirely cultural, and that to search for "objective" causes like resource scarcity or population density is futile. I'm not sure I agree with that entirely, but I do think the evidence is problematic at best for anyone attempting to posit such 'objective' causes for war residing outside culture.
 
In other words, her argument is that the reasons for war are entirely cultural, and that to search for "objective" causes like resource scarcity or population density is futile. I'm not sure I agree with that entirely, but I do think the evidence is problematic at best for anyone attempting to posit such 'objective' causes for war residing outside culture.
Are we to believe, then, that our cultures are not a function of, or influenced by, our group's objective circumstances? For example, I think there was something recently, I don't have a link handy, that societies whose staple crop was seasonal, storable, and transportable (rice, wheat) developed warrior castes, while those whose staple crop was year-round and didn't store well (potatoes, tubers) did not. The reasoning was that seasonal crops that you stored required guards, because food stores were targets for theft or vandalism by rivals. I also wonder about the political power that comes from the control of fresh water (for agriculture) and waterways (for trade). I don't see how control of a river is simply a cultural artifact.
 
If i had a dime for every time a physical anthropologist suggested a dietary reason for a societal more...
 
Again, you are just describing what happened rather than telling me why it happened. If settling down is just "preferable to humans", we'd expect it to have happened much earlier than it did.
We did settle down earlier, where possible. Iirc, Japan and the NW Pacific coast for instance, were fertile and provided enough food from foraging and hunting that one could settle down without agriculture. And those places seem to have had sedentary populations very soon after first being colonised. For most of the Earth's areas however, it wasn't sustainable to live sedentary, as there wasn't enough food. At most people had seasonal settlements. But whereever we could settle, we did so.

The same way we went from not having any other cultural invention, to their being ubiquitous or nearly so. We tend to describe all kinds of innovations, after the fact, as having had some clear utility or 'objective' attraction outside the realm of culture, but I'm not sure this is really the case. For example with fire we can clearly trace how our digestive systems evolved to deal with cooked food after we started controlling fire, so the idea that we started cooking our food because it we were better-suited to do that than to eat raw food in the beginning is clearly wrong.
Iirc, cooked food releases more nutritions than raw food, which was how we started to prefer cooked food when possible. The thing about all these cultural inventions, is that they all seem to follow an evolutionary path. From cave paintings to hieroglyphs to Mona Lisa and Campbell's Soup Cans. From wheelbarrows to chariots to rail cars and Model S. Simply saying that "we didn't have war and then culture invented it" doesn't make any sense. There should be, if not direct evidence, at least a plausible argument for how it came to be.

But that is exactly what you're doing. You're saying that because I can't provide some explanation for how something occurred, it must not have occurred. It is more or less the same as saying the Big Bang couldn't have happened because I can't explain why that happened, either.
As many scientists have noted, why may simply be just a stupid question. :p

I think perhaps or disagreement can come down to what we see h0 as being:

I would say that warfare, in the form of organised violence, being a part of human is the default, and it has been with us for as long as we've been able to organise and has had a penchant for violence.

You seem to be saying that the default hypothesis should be that warfare was invented, because it seems like a very cultural thing, which, if not exclusively being a property of humans alone, certainly occur extremely more often among humans, and might altogether be misinterpreted when seeming to happen among other animals.

(Do correct me if I'm misrepresenting your position.)

That the Big Bang occurred is a hypothesis backed up by evidence. Why it occurred seem somewhat beside the point. Considering that we are social creatures which differ from other animals precisely because we are able to organise with far more complexity than others, and unless it is argued that violence itself is a cultural invention, it seems very reasonable to me that the initial hypothesis should be that war has existed as long as humans have existed.

And until I see evidence to disprove this hypothesis, or a rival hypothesis appears to explain things better, I think it is fair to stay with the first one.

Uh, I wouldn't disagree with this and don't see how it is mutually exclusive with h1. Nor do I see how war, in the case that h2 is true, would be any more 'special' than any other thing humans didn't do and then started doing.
If your argument is not something along the lines of 'war is something humans are doomed to because of our evolutionary biology,' then we may not have any real disagreements at all.

I was reading that Margaret Mead essay and an interesting bit jumped out again.


In other words, her argument is that the reasons for war are entirely cultural, and that to search for "objective" causes like resource scarcity or population density is futile. I'm not sure I agree with that entirely, but I do think the evidence is problematic at best for anyone attempting to posit such 'objective' causes for war residing outside culture.
I'd argue that Mead is a big shortsighted here. As long as any human knows of violence itself, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that asking a friend to help carry out the violence is a smart move. And suddenly we have an organised violence taking place.

Whatever reasons people have for using violence and going to war, be that resource scarcity, imperialism, religion, honour, etc. -- most violence can usually be explained my multiple reasons, many of which I can agree are some form of cultural (but this is a whole other discussion, imo), I don't think it is unreasonable to track the lines back to having a group of 5 guys sneaking up and attacking another small group of humans to chase them away from their hunting/foraging grounds (or to claim their women, or to win a bet, or whatever else they had as their reasons). We do know that Chimps do this at least, and the "needing culture for having reasons for war" argument can be met with pointing out that all societies have some form of culture (and usually a spiritual belief as well, to mix in religion).

But to get to the difference between the two hypotheses:

If warfare has always been with us, it is a simple evolutionary process of war growing bigger and more complex in line with our societies growing bigger and more complex. There is nothing special about them as such, and no miraculous event which suddenly brought war into the world.

If, instead, warfare is a cultural artifact which was invented whole cloth somehow, it would raise several questions: Where did it come from? Was it latent in us, or did the first guy who crowned himself Chieftain suddenly figure out that he had to prove his awesomeness by killing people in the outgroup just because? Did diverse and separate societies develop different types of warfare? What does that even mean? And how does one define warfare? Is a drunk killing another drunk a war? Or a brawl? Does two people on each side make a war? A hundred? What part of our culture led to inventing war? Could we all have simply "missed it", in a different universe? Biologically speaking, we haven't changed much in the last fifty thousand years. How come war suddenly showed up in the last ten thousand?

It all seems like a much more complicated theory, while the first hypothesis seems very plain and simple: that war is a product of our individual ability to do violence and our social skills of organising groups. As far as I can tell, humans never "didn't do and then started doing" something. There is always a gradual evolutionary process to go from one thing to the next. So to posit that war suddenly was "invented" seems very particular.

And finally:
If your argument is not something along the lines of 'war is something humans are doomed to because of our evolutionary biology,' then we may not have any real disagreements at all.
My argument certainly isn't that we are doomed to anything! I do see war as a very natural thing, a mere evolutionary trait formed by our ability to do violence and organise, but origins are not destiny:

There are many natural inclinations that we have which we have left behind -- or are seeking to leave behind -- because our rational minds, our culture and our values have evolved to a point where we find it right and necessary to do so. Obvious examples would be torture, the death penalty, racism and religion, and while recent history holds plenty of terrible wars, large scale violent conflicts are quite rare nowadays. While war will never disappear, just like murder and theft will never disappear, it can certainly become rarer, and striving to avoid it when necessary, is both productive and good. :)
 
Are we to believe, then, that our cultures are not a function of, or influenced by, our group's objective circumstances? For example, I think there was something recently, I don't have a link handy, that societies whose staple crop was seasonal, storable, and transportable (rice, wheat) developed warrior castes, while those whose staple crop was year-round and didn't store well (potatoes, tubers) did not. The reasoning was that seasonal crops that you stored required guards, because food stores were targets for theft or vandalism by rivals. I also wonder about the political power that comes from the control of fresh water (for agriculture) and waterways (for trade). I don't see how control of a river is simply a cultural artifact.
The Incas had a huge, complex and stratified society, so I wouldn't put much value in that theory.

A similar theory however, is that crops which are easier for individuals to grow, like wheat, give fertile conditions to make more individual cultures, while crops which require much more organised work (usually for short bursts of time), like rice, are more probable to make for collectivist cultures. It has been argued that the different crops popularly grown in northern China (wheat) and southern China (rice) has helped mold the differences in mentality between northern and southern Chinese people.

Having to organise workforces for canals and irrigation systems should likewise lead to more collectivist cultures, btw.
 
If the argument is that there were no reason to wage war, then I will counter that a simple conflict over hunting grounds could be ample reason.

That's probably how the first couple war-like conflicts in human history happened. When humans were first starting to hunt in packs, like wolves, at first you could probably do that with your tribe and you'd never run into any other tribe.. since you are one of the first tribes to adopt that form of hunting, there aren't many others doing it yet, there aren't that many people around to begin with, etc.

But once two organized packs of armed humans who are not familiar with each other meet.. it seems that the situation is ripe for a violent confrontation. You have two groups of organized humans, probably with a leader, weapons, and protocols of what to do in case of different kinds of danger, including charging animals, etc. Probably also instincts to protect their hunting grounds. So even if the first time they just walk away peacefully, eventually there's going to be fighting. And it seems logical to me to conclude that every once in a while the chief/leader back at the camp finds out what happened, he will send out scouts (like hunters do) and either respond by migrating elsewhere or attacking the enemy camp. It won't happen every time, and maybe not even frequently, but it's gotta happen sometime. And given the scenario it would be a lot earlier in human history than 13,000 BC
 
I find it implausible to assume people didn't kill each other over stuff, that would indeed be an extraordinary position to take without similar evidence showing it. With less scarcity and less encounters per time due to fewer people, I wouldn't be surprised if the fights were less common on average, but not having them?


I wouldn't even argue that. Not in the past 50,000 years anyways. Scarcity is a relative thing. And it's relative to how many people are trying to consume those resources, and how much resources are recoverable to consume!

And the progress of human societies and populations has marched along with our ability to recover more resources to consume. Much is made in economics of the fact that humans have escaped the Malthusian Trap. But fewer people think it through to understand that up until the time Malthus lived, he was right. Anything before the mid 18th century or so and the Malthusian Trap really did describe the limits of human population growth. Populations grew until they ran out of resources to consume, and then didn't grow, or became per capita poorer, until they collapsed. But if you take that back in time even further, into prehistory, when human populations were very low. Then what you would find is that when a population ran up to the local Malthusian Trap, people would move elsewhere. And when elsewhere had as many people as it could support, they'd fight until one moved even further elsewhere. And in this manner in prehistorical times people were pushed to live in the most inhospitable parts of the globe. During prehistory humans came to inhabit every part of real estate on Earth that can be reached, with the exception of Antarctica and a handful of isolated islands.

By this way people 50,000 years go were pushed to live in Siberia. A place so inhospitable to humans that even now the region supports some of the lowest populations densities on Earth even now. And it was from Siberia that people were so over populated for the local resources that they were pushed to cross over into the Americas 13-15,000 years ago.

What this tells you is that population pressure overcoming local resources has been an ongoing problem for the human race during the whole of the existence of the human race. And so to think that they only resorted to fighting in the recent past is ridiculous.
 
I wouldn't even argue that. Not in the past 50,000 years anyways. Scarcity is a relative thing. And it's relative to how many people are trying to consume those resources, and how much resources are recoverable to consume!

And the progress of human societies and populations has marched along with our ability to recover more resources to consume. Much is made in economics of the fact that humans have escaped the Malthusian Trap. But fewer people think it through to understand that up until the time Malthus lived, he was right. Anything before the mid 18th century or so and the Malthusian Trap really did describe the limits of human population growth. Populations grew until they ran out of resources to consume, and then didn't grow, or became per capita poorer, until they collapsed. But if you take that back in time even further, into prehistory, when human populations were very low. Then what you would find is that when a population ran up to the local Malthusian Trap, people would move elsewhere. And when elsewhere had as many people as it could support, they'd fight until one moved even further elsewhere. And in this manner in prehistorical times people were pushed to live in the most inhospitable parts of the globe. During prehistory humans came to inhabit every part of real estate on Earth that can be reached, with the exception of Antarctica and a handful of isolated islands.

By this way people 50,000 years go were pushed to live in Siberia. A place so inhospitable to humans that even now the region supports some of the lowest populations densities on Earth even now. And it was from Siberia that people were so over populated for the local resources that they were pushed to cross over into the Americas 13-15,000 years ago.

What this tells you is that population pressure overcoming local resources has been an ongoing problem for the human race during the whole of the existence of the human race. And so to think that they only resorted to fighting in the recent past is ridiculous.

Seems a sound enough case to me.
 
Pre historic humans definitely fought in wars. "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away"
 
I think it's Crickley Hill in Gloucestershire which is simply littered with sharp bits of flint and which is believed to have been the site of a bloody battle between two British tribes five or six thousand years ago, indicating that people were killing each other in an organised fashion long before the advent of metal weapons.
 
It is like claiming that humans 40,000 years ago were fundamentally different from humans today because the former didn't write anything down or live in permanent stone dwellings and the latter do. Certainly not the claim I'm making. The claim I'm making is that there are cultural/environmental factors that lead people to write things and build permanent buildings and fight wars, not that people who do these things are 'fundamentally different' from people who don't.



For lack of a better way to put it, yes. Naturally means, basically, that we would do it without the influence of any cultural or environmental factors. That is falsified by the fact that we know of cultures that not only don't fight wars but lack the concept.



Organized group violence is the definition I'm using.
the local indigenous people in Australia have lived here about 50,000 years and lived as hunter gathers for most of that time up to about 1776 when captain cook claimed the land for Britain with no or little outside cultural contact ( some not having contact till the 1960's)
they did not write things down or build permanent buildings they existed as nomadic clan based tribes trading ochre and shells over 3000 km long trade routes for their ceremonies. it is often portrayed as a peaceful Utopia where you can find small hills that are actually clam shell middens so old is their culture

among the first souvenirs taken back to England in 1776 apart from plants and stuffed kangaroos by Mr Banks from Botany Bay were war shields and war spears and war boomerangs all pretty useless for hunting
 
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Pre historic humans definitely fought in wars. "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away"
Some believe there may yet be brothers of man who, even now, fight to survive somewhere beyond the Heavens.
 
I wouldn't even argue that. Not in the past 50,000 years anyways. Scarcity is a relative thing. And it's relative to how many people are trying to consume those resources, and how much resources are recoverable to consume!

And the progress of human societies and populations has marched along with our ability to recover more resources to consume. Much is made in economics of the fact that humans have escaped the Malthusian Trap. But fewer people think it through to understand that up until the time Malthus lived, he was right. Anything before the mid 18th century or so and the Malthusian Trap really did describe the limits of human population growth. Populations grew until they ran out of resources to consume, and then didn't grow, or became per capita poorer, until they collapsed. But if you take that back in time even further, into prehistory, when human populations were very low. Then what you would find is that when a population ran up to the local Malthusian Trap, people would move elsewhere. And when elsewhere had as many people as it could support, they'd fight until one moved even further elsewhere. And in this manner in prehistorical times people were pushed to live in the most inhospitable parts of the globe. During prehistory humans came to inhabit every part of real estate on Earth that can be reached, with the exception of Antarctica and a handful of isolated islands.

By this way people 50,000 years go were pushed to live in Siberia. A place so inhospitable to humans that even now the region supports some of the lowest populations densities on Earth even now. And it was from Siberia that people were so over populated for the local resources that they were pushed to cross over into the Americas 13-15,000 years ago.

What this tells you is that population pressure overcoming local resources has been an ongoing problem for the human race during the whole of the existence of the human race. And so to think that they only resorted to fighting in the recent past is ridiculous.
Malthus is still right, we're just in a bubble right now. To think we've somehow escaped the limits of our natural environment is absurd. We're degrading our environment faster than ever and there's going to be hell to pay in the future. The Earth cannot sustain 7billion and rising indefinitely. Eventually crop failure, mass disease & climate change will bring us back down to a more sustainable number (probably 1-3 billion depending on how wrecked the planet is).
 
I am pretty sure there was crop failure and mass disease and climate changes when there were less than 2 billion humans.
 
I do know that there is a "first documented naval battle between greek states", mentioned in various ancient sources, and that would be a naval battle between Corinth and its rebel colony of Kerkyra (Corfu). Iirc it took place in the 8th (or 7th?) century BC. The first greek colonies, in Italy (not in general) also date back to that, eg afaik the oldest in that mainland is supposed to be Kyme (latin name Cumae).
 
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