Dido Terrible

[steveg700]

It might look nice, but trust me, that city midgame will be anything but stellar. Housing is one thing (and we see the city is penalized with -50% growth already; 3 housing for coastal cities + 1 from palace, so 4 housing; assuming the tiles being worked are bananas, whales and grassland woods amber) the most important thing is that 60-70% of the cities' tiles are wasted on water.
2 eras or so later, where you could've had a size 15 capital, you will end up with something that will struggle to grow to size 10.

And really, I rerolled so many times with Dido, and the start in the screenshot is way better than all my rerolls. That is a very rare "good" start.

That city's doing fine, no need to worry. At 13 pop, I only see one other city in the game that's larger. The whole Phoenician empire is doing great. I'm able to shoot settlers out left and right.

 

[MarigoldRan]

With that start you could have played anyone else and you'll do just as fine.

 

[IvoryPavane]

Her necessary techs are all leaf techs. Unless you're playing a water map where you can galley rush (and conquer someone) she takes FOREVER to get set up.

I think it’s quite important we establish the subjectivity here.

Your experience of her taking a long time =/= Dido takes FOREVER to get up. It just means that her play style might not suit you. By contrast, I find her start quite quick. Again, especially in multiplayer, where I find she rockets out the gate.

In the same vein, where I find the Inca underwhelming, someone who has invested more time and effort into them (like yourself) is likely to get far superior results.

In general, you might find more constructive discourse if you add a bit of subjectivity into your topics. E.g (I find) Dido terrible, instead of Dido terrible.

There are a number of people who are giving viable alternative strategies and reasons based on tests and trials they believe her to be not
“terrible.” You are wilfully ignoring them and adding more of your opinions as fact, so I’m unsure what you want from this thread?

I think every Civ is viable and finding a way to optimise them is part of the fun of the game. Dismissing and labelling Civs as “bad” in general, but especially based on limited playtime, seems pointless and toxic.

Going to unfollow this thread as I think its served it’s purpose (I.e. none), but anyone looking for a few hints and tips on Phonecia, give me a shout as I’ve found a few effective strategies. (Also Ziad seems to have a strong handle on the Civ too!)

 

[steveg700]

With that start you could have played anyone else and you'll do just as fine.

You're growing transparently argumentative. It was argued that you can't get good spots on the coast, visual evidence demonstrates that's not the case.

Having the settler boosts from the cothon aided putting out the settlers, being able to grab up choice spots, and being able to stand up cothons faster than harbors leads to more trade routes. Got my research and economic allegiances, and I'm tearing it up.

Phoenicia is not a hand-out, easy-button civ that lets you walk the bases on deity, but the fault of that sense of entitlement lies not in the civ.

 

[MarigoldRan]

No, I did not say you cannot get good starts off coast. What i said is that you'll get a good start 1/3 of the time, and suck the other 2/3's of the time. Roll 2 more maps and see what happens instead of wasting everyone's time by posting a cooked start like what you did up there.

Moderator Action: Please be civil in discussion and cease your trolling. leif

Sure, you can win with Phoenicia even on Deity. But my point is they suck compared to the other options that you can play with. Except for Archipelago or Island Plates, there is no start with Phoenicia that is better than some other civ in the same position.

You've pretty much admitted that yourself in your comment.

 

[seanos08]

I won a SV on a 7 seas map on King as Dido and will soon try it on emperor. The extra trade routes = buy a decent military. My land neighbors were Scotland and China with Poland cut off by a lot of mountains. Didn't have any major wars.

 

[steveg700]

No, I did not say you cannot get good starts off coast. What i said is that you'll get a good start 1/3 of the time, and suck the other 2/3's of the time. Roll 2 more maps and see what happens instead of wasting everyone's time by posting a cooked start like what you did up there.

Sure, you can win with Phoenicia even on Deity. But my point is they suck compared to the other options that you can play with. Except for Archipelago or Island Plates, there is no start with Phoenicia that is better than some other civ in the same position.

Right, so you contend that Phoenicia gets mostly crappy starts, and then when a good start is shown, you then toggle to contending that with a good start, any civ could do well. Sprinkle in doomsaying about coastal tiles in a generalized non-Dido sort of way, and you've given yourself plenty of ways to find a glass half-empty. Suffice to say, if you believe for a civ to be valid, it has to offer heavy-handed yield bonuses or have some kind of terrain-specific boost, then there are plenty of civ's that will suit you and plenty that will not.

As to accusing anyone who posts contradictory evidence of cooking the books, the start I posted was the first I got. First time playing Dido at all. What exactly is your basis for casting aspersions that it's cooked, other than it deflating your claim? If that's how you roll, then I suspect you will inevitably eke out something to doomsay in the face of any amount evidence rather than cop to hasty judgement, and by all means suit yourself. Most folks here are astute enough to see such conduct for what it is. Then this low-substance thread can fizzle out in the fashion it merits.

Here's my first restart. Pretty playable, I'd say. Tons of room around me, nearest neighbor is Mvemba about twelve tiles away.

Spoiler :

This one's not quite the bonanza the others were, and of course nobody likes having desert nearby, but the start itself has three luxes. hills, woods, nobody jumping out of a bush to bug me after thirty turns. Ottomans have a city about five tiles off to the right.

Spoiler :

 

[MarigoldRan]

Ok. You're playing with extra resources turned on. Note the city spot in the north on the second image where one city can access 5 livestock within two tiles of it. That gives it away.

No point arguing with you anymore as you're obviously cooking the settings. Your starts are also unusually empty, which means that it's likely you're not using the standard number of civs.

Furthermore, even if your maps weren't cooked, the main point is that I can replace Dido with any other civ in the (amazing) maps you've provided and do just as well. The maps you've provided are so open and full of resources that I can play as England on those maps and win on Deity with difficulty mods and my eyes closed. They don't prove anything because, again, I can replace Dido with pretty much anyone else and do just as well, if not better. The maps you've provided are like bragging "I made 10% in the stock market in the last 3 years" when everyone else has made an average of 30%.

Give me a Seven Seas or Pangea or Continents start position where Dido would outperform some other civ like Korea or Nubia. Then you may have a point.

 

[_hero_]

Except for Archipelago or Island Plates, there is no start with Phoenicia that is better than some other civ in the same position.

You've pretty much admitted that yourself in your comment.

And there are plenty of "good" Civs that feel really weak on those maps. I think it is a good thing that there are civs that thrive in unique circumstances and struggle under the more common settings.

 

[MarigoldRan]

But would Dido outperform Norway/Japan/Indonesia/Spain on these maps?

 

[_hero_]

But would Dido outperform Norway/Japan/Indonesia/Spain on these maps?

If there's a ton of open islands to settle, it is quite possible.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Half price harbors are nice, but Norway builds ships 33% faster (once the naval production policy card is factored in).

Also, given how powerful pillaging is, I'd say Norway has the edge over Dido on archipelago/Island Plates maps. You can build a dozen ships, send them to 4 different civs, and run a pillage economy and instawin since there's little the AI can do against it.

Indonesia outperforms with better district adjacencies, better faith production, and a better (and earlier) pantheon.

 

[_hero_]

Norway is obviously better at naval warfare since that is what the civ is all about. But your ability to naval raid is limited by there being tiles to naval raid. Frequently it takes a while for there to be a large number of juicy coastal tiles to raid. Then you have to wait for them to be repaired.

Really nice mid game bonus, but it takes even longer to fully take advantage of than Dido's settler spam.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Not really. You can immediately spam out 6 galleys and move them to every corner of the world. 1-2 ships per civ.

Besides, Norway can settler spam too. It's not like Dido builds settlers any faster than Norway. Dido's loyalty bonus applies only to the continent she's on, which means that it's mostly useless.

For settler spam, Indonesia is better because of monumentality golden age and her insane faith production. You can deal with loyalty by settling two cities close together. The funny thing with Indonesia is you don't even have to build harbors to do well with her. On island maps just run a faith economy and win. If you manage to found a religion and get choral music, even better.

Hmmmmm. Anyone interested in a MP island plates game?

 

[kb27787]

Ahhh I see...
Perhaps we all play with different map settings... Personally I play with balanced starts but if other people play completely random starts or legendary starts it would not be strange if our assessments are different. Certain civs depend on starting dirt quality more than others.

I fired up an archipelago map and then understood... The deity AI absolutely struggles on water maps due to the housing issue and city spacing. They tend to settle crappy cities all over the place. Overall things such as tech pace and wonder races are slower on such maps.
On Pangaea it's pretty obvious that AIs that spawn coastal will always be much worse off than those that spawn in the middle of the continent. But on a water map everyone gets crap starts so the AI is not that much ahead of you even though comparatively speaking you feel your pace is so slow compared to Pangaea.

 

[steveg700]

Ok. You're playing with extra resources turned on. Note the city spot in the north on the second image where one city can access 5 livestock within two tiles of it. That gives it away..

Standard Huge Seven Seas map. Only change is lowering the number of city-states from 18 to 12. I doubt that impacts resources.

As suspected, you're leaping to accuse someone of faking starts when they provide evidence that counters your assertion that Phoenicia gets poor starts. There's a kind of narcissism to think someone would go to such lengths, and a distinct petulance in thinking its okay to level such accusations against a stranger. I was initially just happy to share how great a game I was having with Phoenicia thanks to this thread. This kind of petulance results in folks perusing this thread not taking you seriously. Which, of course, I'm now invested in pointing out.

Furthermore, even if your maps weren't cooked, the main point is that I can replace Dido with any other civ in the (amazing) maps you've provided and do just as well.

Therein lies the canard in your position.

You contend that Phoenicia gets poor starts ("2 out of 3 times"), then upon demonstrating a good start, you say "well, any civ could do well with a good start" and ignore how your original is not being supported. So, you're contriving any sort of argument to just keep arguing a poorly-founded position based on your personal disappointments.

Phoenicia has a suite of abilities involving getting extra trade routes from the government plaza, fast-building harbors, fast-building settlers, and chaining those things together. Saying that another civ can do well doesn't in any way indict Phoenicia's suite. Just arbitrarily naming other civ's and saying "I wager they'd do better" doesn't offer much.

Anyone else want to try generating some Phoenicia maps? Perhaps multiple sources provide more corroboration, although they're just as likely to lead to accusations of "ganging up".

 

[MarigoldRan]

The start you posted on the second map is actually a very poor start. No production in starting location (note the greenness and the lack of hills). Only redeeming quality is that no one spawned to the north and so it was ok. Otherwise it would have been the perfect example of a "bad Dido start" where you're stuck on a coast with no production and an enemy to the north.

 

[steveg700]

The start you posted on the second map is actually a very poor start. No production in starting location (note the greenness and the lack of hills). Only redeeming quality is that no one spawned to the north and so it was ok. Otherwise it would have been the perfect example of a "bad Dido start."

Calling that a very poor start seems to be applying a rather high standard for what constitutes a decent start. Few civ's always get grassland hills, few civ's never get jungles (or even worse) terrain. To my mind, a very poor start would be some peninsula with too much water, or stuck with too much desert, tundra, or mountains (i.e. unmitigatable terrain). Jungles can be leveraged.

Indeed, I would posit (and not be the first to do so) that for a new city, greenness trumps hills. Jungles are beneficial when builders are at a premium. Better to have food to increase population to work low-production tiles than to have a bunch of high-production low-food hills. As you can see, I was able to land the Great Bath, which is a first for me on a huge map with eleven other civ's. Eventually, there'll be a turnaround where I won't want so much jungle, but I can turn that around later. This start looks fine to me, but to each their own.

The major laments for me are lack of iron and no second sea resource within easy reach.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Dido has a higher percentage of low production starts than other civs because of her coast bias. Unlike Indonesia, she also doesn't get any bonuses for settling on coast. I'd say she's about Norway levels of goodness.

 

[steveg700]

Dido has a higher percentage of low production starts than other civs because of her coast bias. Unlike Indonesia, she also doesn't get any bonuses for settling on coast. I'd say she's about Norway levels of goodness.

Yes, a challenge inherent to a coastal bias is fewer workable tiles. Indonesia has a UI to essentially fake land. In Phoenicia's case, the intent seems to be to get a cheap harbor to hustle out cheap settlers and, above all, maximize trade routes as a yield source. I see Phoenicia's coastal suite as being utilized in key locations (mainly, a city with Magnus), whereas Indonesia seems to focus on favoring coastal settles whenever possible.