Different playstyles and how game mechanics & exploits affect your preferred playstyle and enjoyment

Buttercup

King
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Oct 20, 2011
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Any good way to nerf Armies? Or just remove them al together, bacause they are mostly a human player crutch.

This is a major misunderstanding IMO.

Armies aren't a crutch for the human player, they are an attempt to rebalance a completely failed combat system.

The human player is already at a massive disadvantage because of the combat system because of the way the numbers on each unit have almost zero impact in their combat prowess, however, building a 'better' unit costs significantly more shields - ergo: being more advanced than an AI opponent during battle is actually a crippling disadvantage because it means one can only produce half as many units as the AI.

In addition to this, the meaningless of stats means that defensive units, and defending a square generally, is/are very much a joke.

In addition to this, for the 'nicer' government types, war weariness is absurdly strict.

So the Army unit attempts to solve these, and probably more issues, by being a means to have 'more' units in one, a unit the AI wont attack (when at decent health and not in a city), and wont die if it rolls an initially poor few dice rolls.

The fact that they become very OP when you have 3-5 or more of them is a different topic and just another example of why rebalancing isn't really the issue, the issue to be solved is still the atrocious combat system.
 
Armies being a crutch really depends on the difficulty level.

As I've mentioned multiple times, by the time civs industrialise I just simply solve the potential which all stacks of doom have of rolling perfect dice by not allowing them to: as many tiles as possible are barricaded and then forested, and everything covered with artillery units which the AI cannot destroy with its bombers. Problem solved.
 
building a 'better' unit costs significantly more shields - ergo: being more advanced than an AI opponent during battle is actually a crippling disadvantage because it means one can only produce half as many units as the AI.

Very interesting :)

So more nerfing there too. Punishing the more advanced player, and corruption is punishing players with more cities.

I'm not saying that I have better ideas, just pointing out facts. A tank driver shouldn't take longer to train than an archer.

What do shields represent: material cost or time?
 
I'm not sure that being more advanced than the AI opponent is a disadvantage. Sure, the leap between a 3-def pikeman and a 4-def musketman is a whopping doubled price, but Riflemen instead of Infantry, especially on defence, is simply insane.
 
I see a lot of discussion about defensive units.......I mostly only build offensive units............Am I missing something important here? :confused:;):)
 
however, building a 'better' unit costs significantly more shields
This is only true early on. Longbows cost twice as many shields as archers for double the firepower, but the shield difference between knights and cavalry is not very significant at all (14% more), while cavalry are much better attackers.
The difference between tanks and cavalry is huge, especially because tanks have blitz. Tanks are 100 shields vs 80 for cavalry, already a small difference, but I've got factories and hydro plants and railroads when building tanks, so they are actually much faster to build.
 
Armies being a crutch really depends on the difficulty level.

As I've mentioned multiple times, by the time civs industrialise I just simply solve the potential which all stacks of doom have of rolling perfect dice by not allowing them to: as many tiles as possible are barricaded and then forested, and everything covered with artillery units which the AI cannot destroy with its bombers. Problem solved.

It depends on a vast array of permutations, including but not exclusive to difficulty level. The problem is not answered by describing one specific work-around which relies purely upon one specific method of working around, because the whole point of Civ3 is to have lots of different ways to play the game, so, if my workaround is always XYZ, then that's not optional variety. Variety in a 4X game means things like: Tall or wide, defensive or offensive, roleplay or min/max, exploit or not, and many, many more.

Very interesting :)

So more nerfing there too. Punishing the more advanced player, and corruption is punishing players with more cities. I'm not saying that I have better ideas, just pointing out facts. A tank driver shouldn't take longer to train than an archer. What do shields represent: material cost or time?

I have a very strong suspicion that the person who made this game was obsessed with balance, in the same way MMO addicts are, and, as a result, produced something akin to Frankenstein's monster. Wherever you look, whatever you do, you see the game desperately trying to 'give you a balanced experience' rather than the game just being a set of mechanics you have to learn in order to master it.

This isn't entirely negative and does add something to the game that no other CIV game has and it does at least try to offer more playstyle variety than most other Civ games, it's just unfortunate that most of these balancing obsessions add as many negative drawbacks as they do positive. The biggest positive is the game's inherent replayability via strong playstyle variety, the drawback is most of the micro-mechanics are horrendous: The combat, the corruption, the pollution, the level-scaling, the randomness of resources, the sheer number of exploits and many, many more.

I'm not sure that being more advanced than the AI opponent is a disadvantage. Sure, the leap between a 3-def pikeman and a 4-def musketman is a whopping doubled price, but Riflemen instead of Infantry, especially on defence, is simply insane.

The proposition and it's value will very much depend on scenario specifics, but, yes, by the time of the industrial age one knows whether one is screwed or not. In that the game will probably have been quit prior to that should any variables have not worked out or should the player not be in the mood to 'graft' out a 'tougher' game using every trick in the book (this will happen for most players somewhere around 4000BC when one is spawned in the middle of a desert or on a tiny isolated island, etc.

Because, by having foreknowledge of what needs to be done, one can quickly say 'nah' at a very early stage of the game rather than 'grind out' every starting position available. Ergo, we develop a natural cognitive bias about "what is the best way to work around the more horrendous aspects of the game".

I see a lot of discussion about defensive units.......I mostly only build offensive units............Am I missing something important here? :confused:;):)

Yes, you're missing the fact that pretty much all the offensive units rely heavily on strategic resources whereas only a few of defensive ones do. You're also missing the fact that offensive units often also rely on learning dead-end and side-track technologies. You're also missing the knowledge about what the AI will choose to attack and what it wont choose to attack. You're also missing any elaboration of what scenarios you prefer and whether you quit games that don't go entirely your way and whether you include these in your assessment of the proposition.

If you only ever mostly build offensive units, does this suggest that you also always play aggressively, in that you wont ever play a game that doesn't involve 'crushing the AI'? In effect, has the hopelessness of the combat stats formed the way you play the game? Or do you play the game with as much variety as the developer intended?

Don't get me wrong, your point is very valid, the game does reward attacking units much more than defensive units, but saying "don't build defensive units then" is extremely reductive to the point being made, because your saying what your workaround is rather than addressing the issue.

This is only true early on. Longbows cost twice as many shields as archers for double the firepower, but the shield difference between knights and cavalry is not very significant at all (14% more), while cavalry are much better attackers.
The difference between tanks and cavalry is huge, especially because tanks have blitz. Tanks are 100 shields vs 80 for cavalry, already a small difference, but I've got factories and hydro plants and railroads when building tanks, so they are actually much faster to build.

As I said to Takhisis, if you've made it as far at Tanks then you're probably good whatever you're doing as, if it looked like a loss before that point you'd have already quit. So, yes, obviously, it's mostly a discussion about early game.

In addition to this, you kind-of expose your one-and-only-one type of playstyle with your description of "Railroads, factories, Hydroplants, Tanks", because they all rely on very specific in-game factors, such as no factories without Iron, no Railroads without Coal, no Hydroplants without Rivers, no Tanks without Oil. Because by saying this it means you'd propbably not even be playing a game where you don't have abundant rivers and you must also always be playing an aggressive and attacking style of play because it's extremely rare that even a 25% of the globe coverage empire will have access to each and every resource as it arrives.

So the same question to you as to EMan, instead of addressing the proposition are you using your naturally evolved workarounds to suggest the problem isn't a problem? Is the game playing you rather than you playing the game, in that you know what you need to do to workaround the problem so, invariably, you simply don't even attempt a playstyle that was intended but doesn't work as efficiently?
 
@Buttercup your post has many assertions that don't align with my experience with the game.

Yes, I build offensive units in the Ancient Age. Neither Warrior Code nor Iron working are dead-end techs, though Horseback Riding and later Chivalry could be considered dead-end. Isn't Horseback Riding required to exit the Ancient Age?
Neither Feudalism, Invention nor Gunpowder are dead-end techs in the Middle Ages.

Since acquiring land (and food) is key to achieving any of the victory conditions, expansion using both settlers and military is common across many play styles. It's considered a significant challenge to play "tall", with only five cities or one city. I don't try to "crush the AI" in every game. Most games I pursue Space, and I fight wars to gain land and valuable resources. About a third of my games I pursue Domination, so yes, I do plan to "crush the AI."

An element missing from your analysis about the shield cost of more advanced units is the ability to upgrade older units. Once I research Feudalism, I tend to spend gold to upgrade my swords to MDI. Yes, I am building new MDI but not a whole army's worth. Once I have acquire iron, I rarely build enough archers to upgrade them to longbows, but I could. If I choose to research Chivalry, I would upgrade my horsemen to knights. Neither I nor the AI have a surplus of shields in the Ancient and early Middle Ages. Making decisions about what to build (and the AI loves to build wonders!) is a key advantage that human players have.

Yes, after the first 50 to 100 turns, I look at the terrain that the game has given me to use -- one of the many random elements in the game -- and decide whether it will be fun to try to win this game. I have had fun on maps where iron was scarce, and I needed to plan a significant invasion to get it. I have had fun on maps with few rivers, so that I couldn't easily build the Hoover Dam, when I got that far. I have had fun on maps where I had both iron and rivers in my starting core. I have abandoned games where I wouldn't have fun trying to dig out of the hole that the RNG gods have put me in.
 
In addition to this, you kind-of expose your one-and-only-one type of playstyle with your description of "Railroads, factories, Hydroplants, Tanks", because they all rely on very specific in-game factors, such as no factories without Iron, no Railroads without Coal, no Hydroplants without Rivers, no Tanks without Oil. Because by saying this it means you'd propbably not even be playing a game where you don't have abundant rivers and you must also always be playing an aggressive and attacking style of play because it's extremely rare that even a 25% of the globe coverage empire will have access to each and every resource as it arrives.
Actually my "one-and-only-one type of playstyle" is 20k with no wars. (While I play a lot of different games, this is my favorite.) I have hydro plants because I build Hoover Dam, not because I have a lot of rivers. I trade for iron, coal, and oil if I don't have them, and I'll usually be missing at least one, because my empire is so small.
 
@Buttercup your post has many assertions that don't align with my experience with the game.

Yes, I build offensive units in the Ancient Age. Neither Warrior Code nor Iron working are dead-end techs, though Horseback Riding and later Chivalry could be considered dead-end. Isn't Horseback Riding required to exit the Ancient Age?
Neither Feudalism, Invention nor Gunpowder are dead-end techs in the Middle Ages.

Since acquiring land (and food) is key to achieving any of the victory conditions, expansion using both settlers and military is common across many play styles. It's considered a significant challenge to play "tall", with only five cities or one city. I don't try to "crush the AI" in every game. Most games I pursue Space, and I fight wars to gain land and valuable resources. About a third of my games I pursue Domination, so yes, I do plan to "crush the AI."

An element missing from your analysis about the shield cost of more advanced units is the ability to upgrade older units. Once I research Feudalism, I tend to spend gold to upgrade my swords to MDI. Yes, I am building new MDI but not a whole army's worth. Once I have acquire iron, I rarely build enough archers to upgrade them to longbows, but I could. If I choose to research Chivalry, I would upgrade my horsemen to knights. Neither I nor the AI have a surplus of shields in the Ancient and early Middle Ages. Making decisions about what to build (and the AI loves to build wonders!) is a key advantage that human players have.

Yes, after the first 50 to 100 turns, I look at the terrain that the game has given me to use -- one of the many random elements in the game -- and decide whether it will be fun to try to win this game. I have had fun on maps where iron was scarce, and I needed to plan a significant invasion to get it. I have had fun on maps with few rivers, so that I couldn't easily build the Hoover Dam, when I got that far. I have had fun on maps where I had both iron and rivers in my starting core. I have abandoned games where I wouldn't have fun trying to dig out of the hole that the RNG gods have put me in.

A nice post this, very good quality in detail. I'm not seeing the "many" aspects of my failed assertations, but I can understand the sentiment, because the game is so rich and deep with different mechanics and debatable points that it is very difficult to highlight them all in one post, one just hopes the other person gets the gist. And I do get your gist.

Regarding the "dead end techs" angle, obviously, some are techs you have to take anyway, but for brevity's sake I didn't want to list the nuance of every tech. However, your post insists I clarify, so I'll try my best to.

The Ancient Age tech tree is deliberately tailored so that it's very cumbersome to bee-line the actually useful things. If you want Horsemen, you have hack through first rank techs and then it dead-ends. Yes, you'll still need it to progress to the next tech age, but going that route at the start of the game is severely cumbersome because, even if you are the first Horsemen, you wont have the time or capacity to spam horsemen at that point, due to prioritising settlers, workers, and aiming to get culture up and all that kind of stuff.

As a result, Horsemen is usually a relatively late consideration, at which point the AI probably has them as well and they will probably have loads of spearmen and swordsmen as well, to which the horseman doesn't have that great an advantage. Horses also rely on you actually having a horse resource, and you may need to wait for this to be connected or, as you say, you may need to fight for it, both of which can be a major hassle.

This all excludes Unique Units, of course, which adds a different set of variables, thought he cost of the Iroquois bonus Horseman is, of course, another point that matches my proposition, in that costs so much in shields that you may not be doing that much conquest before you've got Knights anyway. I must admit, I've had good romps with the Iroquois UU, but I did benefit from lovely starts, a point not to be forgotten.

Iron Working is necessary, but it's not necessary very early on, because its main benefit to learn is that it's a path to Construction, one of the most crucial AA techs because it provides the much needed aqueducts. Other than that Iron Working only provides you with the knowledge of where Iron Deposits are, and if none are nearby or in really awkward places, you won't be getting to them for many turns anyway, there are probably more useful techs you could be learning in the meantime. Because even if you get a good early Iron Deposit, you're still not going to be overly bothered with massing an army of swordsmen when you are building settlers, workers, and are permanently at your allowed units limit.

These are both techs that get learned, but they are much more 'at some point' rather than prioritised unless you are specifically aiming for one specific kind of scenario, such as defeating the AI in record time on a small to medium sized Pangea or whatever. The two techs don't actually offer anything beyond 'you have a percentage chance to build some better units'. And if your percentages fail, you've wasted your time, because Horseriding leads nowhere and Iron Working only gets you halfway to Construction, something you'll desperately want after about 150 turns, but not really before that anyway, almost whatever your playstyle.

Warrior Code is an interesting one. It's certainly nice to have, but is it worth it rather than any other tech at that point if you don't start with it? It only leads to Horsemen (see previous) and to Monarchy, a very specific tech that is itself a totally dead-end optional tech. Yes, you get access to archers, which can be very useful, I've quickly overrun enemy AIs with Archers before, but they tend to be a bit rubbish against other archers or swordsmmen and only have a mild advantage over Warriors for most everything else. And yet they cost twice as many shields as a Warrior. So, for Barbarians, might as well stick to Warriors and learn something else, but for crushing an AI quickly on a small to medium Pangea, sure, it has its value, if you're extremely quick about it.

But, again, Warrior Code doesn't offer anything other than the improved unit, it doesn't particularly lead anywhere, hence, generally speaking, it's quite the dead-end tech, but not quite as much as the previous two.

While Feudalism, Invention and Gunpowder are not dead-end, they mainly rely on you punting for resources again. Longbowmen are the odd-unit-out, and, as we all know, these were a later addition to the game, another mad attempt to paper over the cracks of flawed combat system of the original design. While Longbowmen are an offensive unit, they cost quite a bit and offer no defensive threat and will be attacked no matter how many you pile up, and they'll die easy, and they are furiously slow, none of which bodes well for most styles of play beyond remorseless spamming and invading under a government type with zero war weariness, a fine playstyle, but a playstyle that would probably be all over by the middle of the Middle Ages anyway.

I feel somewhat confident in assessing that anyone who's made it to the Middle Ages and is only reliant upon Longbowmen by that point and has a mind to play for war is either going to be quitting or waiting for Riflemen or possibly Rubber. Or grinding it out by vast numbers, of course.

And as for Medieval Infantry, they're not much to write home about either. Yes, MIs can carve through Spearmen quite easily, but then so can Archers and Swordsmen. The real advantages in the MeA come from Knights and Cavalry, both of which require two resources and dead-end techs. And the advantage isn't in the numbers, the advantage is in the movements per turn and the retreat chance.

To which the point of the initial post was that, for example, if you have 6 cities spamming MIs and the AI has 6 cities spamming Swordsmen, you're not really gaining much by being an entire tech page ahead of them, and, in fact, could be at a disadvantage, because you're paying far more for barely any change in combat prowess and, exploits aside, the AI Swordsmen will probably win in the long run because they're making them at a far greater pace than you can produce MIs. And, similarly, Pikemen have barely any noticeable advantage over Spearmen, they die almost as easily regardless of terrain and etc.

It's unlikely that the human player will be in this situation because the human player knows this and therefore plays to not get into that situation. Or just quits, of course.

And my point really counts when I read your concluding paragraph where you say, yes, you do indeed quit if the circumstances don't pan out to something whereby you have access to everything anyway by some means, when, in reality, wouldn't it also be fun to play a Swiss game and have appalling terrain but just have the fun of watching the enemy fall like mayflies upon your mountain-top entrenched Pikemen as you calmly try to ignore the surrounding world and do your own thing. Alas, no, having a rocky start with not much but snow to wander about in is an almost automatic quit, why? because we know already that those Pikemen will easily succumb to those relentless AIs unless we have 4 on each mountain all fortified in Barricades, something the game's economy doesn't allow, assuming you still want to win any of the VCs.

Actually my "one-and-only-one type of playstyle" is 20k with no wars. (While I play a lot of different games, this is my favorite.) I have hydro plants because I build Hoover Dam, not because I have a lot of rivers. I trade for iron, coal, and oil if I don't have them, and I'll usually be missing at least one, because my empire is so small.

Yes, my favourite is 20k as well, so I'm surprised you aren't in more agreement.

You can't build Hoover's Dam without a River, so I'm not sure what your point is about the HD is here. Also, just because the HD puts a Hydro in all your cities, I'm not sure if any have any effect if that city isn't near a river anyway. I thought I tested this once and found it only affected cities with a river nearby and for all the other cities it was a useless folly. I could be wrong on this point. Also, my 20ks are usually long over before HD even comes into relevance, so there could be a difficulty level misunderstanding between us here.

Yes, you can trade for resources, but this requires the AI to be at the same tech level as you, so in those circumstances you are not in an advantageous position to the AI anyway for the notion of "being more advanced isn't that relevant to the combat" to be relevant, which was the point you were initially addressing.

But, yes, I can see and understand how threads and discussions can get confused via side-tracks and point-to-point deviations, so I don't hold it against you, I think you're a great poster and a great Civ3'er, and, as I said earlier in the post, with so many things to talk about with this game it is difficult to get it all out in one post, but if we could try to stay on track and try to get the most relevant details into each post it would save a lot of potentially enraging communication as the piece-meals turn into different topics.

The topic being: to what extent would your choice of playstyle be improved if you knew a Pikeman fortified on a Mountain would be much more of a fearsome rock that could probably take out at least 4 units with an attack value up to 5 before it looked like dying instead of the random 50/50 chance of it dying first time against a Swordsman that we currently endure?
 
...Yes, you're missing the fact that pretty much all the offensive units rely heavily on strategic resources whereas only a few of defensive ones do. You're also missing the fact that offensive units often also rely on learning dead-end and side-track technologies...
On the surface it looks like I may be missing a lot!? ;)
However, Archers, Longbowmen & Catapults require NO resources. Swordsmen, Pikemen & Musketmen require Iron, Iron & Saltpeter respectively. I've played for every type of Victory Condition and believe Horsemen (requiring Horses & NON-dead-end Horsebackriding) are essential to a smooth victory, no matter which victory condition you choose at the start of the game. (Also, essential IMO). If I don't have a Horse resource in sight, I'll go find it and take it! Having fast-moving units (all offensive) makes for an easier life.:)
 
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Also, just because the HD puts a Hydro in all your cities, I'm not sure if any have any effect if that city isn't near a river anyway. I thought I tested this once and found it only affected cities with a river nearby and for all the other cities it was a useless folly. I could be wrong on this point.
Hoover Dam supplied hydro plants provide power to all cities, they do not need to be on a river.
 
On the surface it looks like I may be missing a lot!? ;)
Archers, Longbowmen & Catapults require NO resources. Swordsmen, Pikemen & Musketmen require Iron, Iron & Saltpeter respectively. I've played for every type of Victory Condition and believe Horsemen (requiring Horses & NON-dead-end Horsebackriding) are essential to a smooth victory, no matter which victory condition you choose at the start of the game. (Also, essential IMO). If I don't have a Horse resource in sight, I'll go find it and take it! Having fast-moving units (all offensive) makes for an easier life.:)

You are stating facts, but you are not contradicting my points, you are merely saying how you play the game because of how the game provides its advantages. You haven't added anything, you are merely continuing to repeat a covered point.

The point was: "armies are a crutch", to which, "no, they were an attempt to balance", why? "because numbers mean nothing", you saying "well I always just go with units with movement advantages" doesn't add to or prove or disprove anything. But I enjoy reading your posts anyway I guess, I look forward to the next post where you crush all the AIs before you once again!
 
The point was: "armies are a crutch", to which, "no, they were an attempt to balance"
These are not contradictory. It can be true that they were introduced by the designers to provide balance AND that they are used as a "crutch", whether that means a mediocre player like me playing a level or 2 higher than we may otherwise, knowing that we may be able to use an army to get out of a hole or Sir Pleb using funnels of death to beat a Sid AI 2 eras ahead of him.
 
These are not contradictory. It can be true that they were introduced by the designers to provide balance AND that they are used as a "crutch", whether that means a mediocre player like me playing a level or 2 higher than we may otherwise, knowing that we may be able to use an army to get out of a hole or Sir Pleb using funnels of death to beat a Sid AI 2 eras ahead of him.

I like your thinking here, its always nice to have a new perspective. But what is the evidence to suggest that players or developers were thinking that the players needed a crutch? I suppose you could argue that a crutch is the same thing in meaning to balancing anyway?

Wouldn't it depend on what the criticisms and experiences were soon after release? ie: If people were complaining the game was too hard, then that would be a crutch, the Longbowman could definitely be argued to be a crutch in that regard, as that's about resources. The army isn't about resources though. If the issue was something else, such as players not reporting playing as the developers intended or players complaining the combat wasn't fun enough (AKA: Bull-s) then that would be more akin to balancing.

Maybe one of the old timey posters remembers those days.
 
We might want to move this discussion to its own thread.

Armies were included in vanilla, and were buffed in C3C. The developers included the mechanic for MGL and armies from the beginning. I can believe that the developers knew from playtesting (even in vanilla days) that the AI didn't use armies well. For the human player, the MGL presented an interesting decision -- build an army, which yields benefits later, or rush production of a wonder, which is a more immediate benefit.

I take issue with the "numbers mean nothing" statement. That's exaggerating. Warriors (1.1.1) are definitely inferior to nearly everything else in the Ancient Age, when attacking. Swords (3.2.1) are much more effective at slicing up defenders and taking cities; warrior rushes are only possible if an AI is freakishly close by. Many CivFanatics here make the case that one should build more swords than spears (1.2.1) since both defend with strength 2 (if defense is needed, say, in a city garrison) and the swords are much better on offense. Is a pike (1.4.1) twice as good as a spear? Maybe not, but pikes are intended to defend against knights.

I would say that the developers created a combat system that was an improvement over Civ2, and not as good as Civ4 or other games. I would not say that their combat system is broken or rubbish; it is. It is the model that was designed for the game, I understand it, and I find it fun. Indeed, I find the Civ3 combat system to have some advantages in its simplicity over the "suicide catapults" weirdness in Civ4 or the "bombard everything" attitude in Civ5.
 
Neither Warrior Code nor Iron working are dead-end techs
Bloody hell, how could they ever be? Archers are a must in the early game if there are any barbarians around, lest you be swamped by a flood of Horsemen, and Iron Working means that you can secure Iron early on. If not, the AI will defend its iron with Pikemen (or, worse, Swiss mercenaries) and you'll never get to build railroads and factories in the industrial age, by which point you'll be playing at half your productive capacity and without the means to transport your troops to face enemy invasions, i.e. you're a defeat waiting to happen.

btw, vorlon_mi, pikemen are 1.3.1 unless they're Swiss in Dutch employ.
 
I take issue with the "numbers mean nothing" statement. That's exaggerating. Warriors (1.1.1) are definitely inferior to nearly everything else in the Ancient Age, when attacking. Swords (3.2.1) are much more effective at slicing up defenders and taking cities; warrior rushes are only possible if an AI is freakishly close by. Many CivFanatics here make the case that one should build more swords than spears (1.2.1) since both defend with strength 2 (if defense is needed, say, in a city garrison) and the swords are much better on offense. Is a pike (1.4.1) twice as good as a spear? Maybe not, but pikes are intended to defend against knights.

I would say that the developers created a combat system that was an improvement over Civ2, and not as good as Civ4 or other games. I would not say that their combat system is broken or rubbish; it is. It is the model that was designed for the game, I understand it, and I find it fun. Indeed, I find the Civ3 combat system to have some advantages in its simplicity over the "suicide catapults" weirdness in Civ4 or the "bombard everything" attitude in Civ5.

No, Warriors are not noticeably inferior to nearly everything else at their time of appearance. I don't know if you've even tried, but next time you play, stack up 10 Veteran Warriors and use them to invade any random AI Town with its obligatory 2 Regular Spearmen, you'd be amazed. Then try the same thing with 10 Archers in the next game. Then try with 10 Swordsmen in the next game, and tell me the results of your findings - I predict the Warriors will lose maybe 3 or 4 units before taking the city, 5 at a stretch. The Archers will lose maybe 2 or 3 units before taking the city and the Swordsmen will lose maybe 1 or 2 before taking the city - That's the variance. The variance isn't the fact that the defender has a defence value of 2.5, the variance is that having 10 units of each results in one less death on average per attack point of the attacker, to which only when you get to Tanks at an attack of 12 does your chance of not losing one drop to below an average of one per attempt. And, on top of this, those two who do defeat the Spearmen will likely take a lot of damage, unless they are just finishing one off.

Right, so, Warrior cost = 10 shields, Archer 20 Shields, Swordsman 30 Shields

Cost to take Town = 30-50 Shields with Warriors, 40-60 Shields for Archers, 30-60 Shields for Swordsmen

Unit numbers cost assuming over your freeby limit and in Despotism = sending 8 Veteran Warriors, just to be safe = 8gp, 6 Archers = 6gp, 4 Swordsmen = 4gp

The relevant factor in improving your army isn't the numbers on their defence/attack rating, it isn't really their Shield cost, though, obviously, Warriors are cheaper, marginally (and much quicker to spam) the relevant factor is you need less of them to do the same job... if you are the attacker.

However, the war wont end when you take the Town, you'll have to do some defending at some point. At some point an enemy archer will fire upon you. And in these circumstances you really are up the creek whichever unit you send. The enemy Archer will have a very good chance to annihilate any one of the above, or, at best, still remove at least half your unit's strength. The outlier will always be the Archer dies without inflicting any damage at all, if anything that's more akin to a miracle than a hope.

So now what are the potential costs of that invasion force?

10 Warriors = 3 to take the town with 4 or 5 casualties and two to die to Archers on the way or soon after = 100 Shields and 10gp
8 Archers = 3 to take the town with 2 or 3 casualties and two to die to Archers = 160 Shields and 8gp
7 Swordsmen = 3 to take the town with 1 or 2 casualties and two to die to Archers = 210 Shields and 7gp

The gp cost is now marginal, barely relevant, but the Shield inflation has gone through the roof, and the important aspect of spamming units is to be able to produce them as quickly as they die.

Now, if we could somehow find a way to make the defence stat relevant, the second aspect of this scenario becomes less relevant and things... balance... out more.

But wait, I hear you say, if defence was better then you'd need more units to take the town, well, no, if the defence was more rational then the player would be more inclined to take siege equipment before even thinking about taking a town.

Catapult cost = 20 Shields. Catapults needed to reduce 2 Regular Spearmen to 1hp = 4 = 80 Shields, 3 Swordsmen to defend against the two Archers and take the town = 90 Shields = 170 Shields and 7gp

Which is a definite improvement over all the above and an improvement over the following requirements with an improved defence stat:

4 Catapults, 6 Archers (two to die due to low defence stat, two to possibly die in 50/50s with the 1hp Spearmen) = 200 Shields and 10gp

4 Catapults, 10 Warriors (two to die, six to possibly die taking the town) = 180gp and 14gp

And suddenly the combat would... make sense. The sense of progression would make sense.

Do you understand where I'm coming from?

(and yes, I'm aware even the above will have variance, but the base average defines the cost for explanation purposes).

It is not better than Civ2's combat because it pays so little heed to upgraded arsenals, probably the most defining feature of successful combat. You might well describe the unpredictability as 'fun', but then 'fun' isn't definable, and one can call anything one likes 'fun' regardless of any factors, however, if you want to suggest to someone that Civ3 is primarily a 'strategy' game that 'attempts' to 'simulate' something vaguely 'rational' then the above is very much more important than your personal interpretation of 'fun'.
 
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We might want to move this discussion to its own thread.
Yes, indeed. It's definitely a very interesting discussion (one of the most interesting I've read in the Civ3 forum for a long time), but it's getting definitely too long for the "Quick Answers & Newbie Questions" thread... ;)
If everyone is fine with it, please suggest a fitting thread title, and I'll do the creation & moving of the posts.
 
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