Dingding’s Deity Challenge – Gandhi: India’s Conquest

[dingding]

In the next 14 turns (t128-t143), I meet the Pop-music group the Buddhi-Five, they are: Suryavarman II, Lincoln, Alexander, Pascal II and Julius Cesar. The other 50% of the game has begun.

Civ 4’s diplomacy system is incredibly successful not only because all the leaders have unique character but also because their character is designed with some simple character variables: WonderConstructRand (priority to build wonders), BuildUnitProb (priority to build units), SameReligionAttitude, DifferentReligionAttitude, etc. These factors help us understand the behaviors of an AI and predict the future of the game. AI’s characters should be learned by heart for an Immortal player.

Another chart is simple but very useful as well for an Emperor/Immortal player: at which attitude AI won’t DoW you. It’s extremely important in particular for a no s/l play, in which risk should be minimized at the most.

To know your rivals is already sufficient to help us defeat Immortal and below, but in Deity, you need not only to know them but to USE them. That needs another chart: Trade Relation. If defines all levels of relationship needed for a trade: OB, resources, bribery, voluntary vassal, etc. Among them, the most important thing is the attitude needed for bribery of DoW.

So, I have now 6 rivals who are very different from one to another, but the first thing (and the most important one) I look at is:

WvO:

if Friendly (to you) can be bribed to DoW a Cautious (to a third-party) AI​

Sury:

if Pleased can be bribed to DoW a Pleased AI​

Lincoln:

if Friendly can be bribed to DoW an Annoyed AI​

Alexander:

if Cautious can be bribed to DoW a Pleased AI​

Pascal II:

if Friendly can be bribed to DoW a Pleased AI​

Julius Cesar:

if Pleased can be bribed to DoW a Pleased AI​

If we ignore the other factors, we can see easily who are easy to control and who are not: Alex > JC = Suryavarman > WvO > Pascal > Lincoln. Then we’ll try to integrate the other factors: inter-relationship between them, scores, power, and the most important thing: tech situation. I'll talk about these in the next post.

Here enclosed the no-war attitude chart (made by royanstar) and Trade Relation chart (made by gowang). Many thanks for the share of royanstar and gowang on Civclub forum!

No-war attitude chart:

Spoiler :

The lower the figure, the higher the risk of DoW. 100 means there is no DoW probability at this attitude.

Edit: Several explanations about the Trade Relation chart enclosed:

If the trade is only between AI and you, the relation displayed in "to you" section is AI's minimal relation towards you to make the trade possible.

If there is a 3rd-party involved, the relation displayed in "to a 3rd-party" section is AI's maximum relation towards this 3rd-party.

Example:
Alexander: in the "Go to War" Section, it's Caution (to you) and Pleased (to a 3rd-party).
That means: if Alex is Cautious/Pleased/Friendly towards you, he can be bribed to DoW another AI towards whom he feels Pleased/Cautious/Annoyed/Furious.

 

[Zink]

What a great thread! Read it twice now to try to understand the discussions and learn from those detailed reports. The coming diplo will be interesting, i've hardly read any reports where this topic has been covered in much detail.

Thanks dingding!

 

[eireksten]

In the No-War Attitude Chart, why does Catherine have 100 at Friendly? I thought she could declare then?

I also have a question about the Trade Relations sheet. In the "Declare War" and "Stop Trading" sections, what does "To You" and "To 3rd Party" mean (and consequently, what does the attitudes in these columns refer to)?

edit: Very interesting thread, btw

 

[ForGreatJustice]

I also am confused about how to read/interpret the chart. For example, just looking at Alex at the top, will trading him OB put his attitude "towards you" as caution? Or is it that only at caution he will trade OB?

And is this a spreadsheet you put together yourself? Frickin' awesome man.

 

[mrt309]

In the No-War Attitude Chart, why does Catherine have 100 at Friendly? I thought she could declare then?

I also have a question about the Trade Relations sheet. In the "Declare War" and "Stop Trading" sections, what does "To You" and "To 3rd Party" mean (and consequently, what does the attitudes in these columns refer to)?

edit: Very interesting thread, btw

She can declare when bribed.

For example Alexander's "declare war" section: cautious to you, pleased to 3rd party. I guess it means you can bribe him to declare on another one he is pleased with when he is cautious to you. Correct if it's wrong.

 

[kossin]

Here enclosed the no-war attitude chart (made by royanstar) and Trade Relation chart (made by gowang). Many thanks for the share of royanstar and gowang on Civclub forum!

I also am confused about how to read/interpret the chart. For example, just looking at Alex at the top, will trading him OB put his attitude "towards you" as caution? Or is it that only at caution he will trade OB?

And is this a spreadsheet you put together yourself? Frickin' awesome man.

See dingding's quote.
These have been going around on CFC for a while, they're just hard to find.
The displayed attitude is the minimal one at which the AI will accept the deal.
Therefore, Alexander will open borders at Cautious and above (Pleased, Friendly) but refuse below (Annoyed, Furious).

 

[eireksten]

She can declare when bribed.

For example Alexander's "declare war" section: cautious to you, pleased to 3rd party. I guess it means you can bribe him to declare on another one he is pleased with when he is cautious to you. Correct if it's wrong.

Thanks, that cleared it up

edit: Though I now see that most AI's will be more willing to go to war than to stop trading... Is this right?

 

[dingding]

Sorry the Trade Relation chart may be confusing.

If the trade is between AI and you, the relation displayed in "to you" section is AI's minimal relation towards you to make the trade possible.

If there is a 3rd-party involved, the relation displayed in "to a 3rd-party" section is AI's maximum relation towards this 3rd-party.

Example:

Alexander: in the "War" Section, it's Cautious (to you) and Pleased (to a 3rd-party).

That means: if Alex is Cautious/Pleased/Friendly towards you, he can be bribed to DoW another AI towards whom he feels Pleased/Cautious/Annoyed/Furious.

Though I now see that most AI's will be more willing to go to war than to stop trading... Is this right?

It seems strange but it's right

 

[dingding]

Next I’ll take into account some other factors in my diplomatic strategy. In summary two things: Power and AI’s relation between each other.

Power:

The most visible thing to evaluate a civilization’s power is its score. There are mainly two elements in the score: Population and Technology. The first thing I know about them it’s their scores are quite close: JC, Sury, Pascal and Lincoln have 1200-1300 points. Though Alex has only 700, he’s not in the vassal state.

Let’s see more details:

Land, or Population, is crucial. (I’m used to talking about them together because generally they are the same thing). On it depend how much output (commerce and production output) an AI can potentially have and how many units he can potentially keep. More details are expected, but before map trade, all you can guess about AI’s population is from their number of cities. In my experience, generally in a standard map in Deity, an AI with 12 or more cities can be considered as a real danger: tech will be not bad and huge SoD can be made. This time, all of them have only 7-8 cities, and I find myself really lucky

After the map trade, I check their land in detail. Though they don’t have many cities, but the tiles are well improved and cottaged. Cottage is essential for everyone even for warmongers: it limits their tech and more importantly the size of their SoD. Despite their mature CE and potential research capacity, a 7-city AI as they are is not supposed to have an undefeatable army. Again, I’m lucky this time: AIs are well-balanced.

Spoiler :

JC:
Pascal:
Sury:
Lincoln:

Then it’s Tech. All I did during these 15 turns about techs are:

Turn 128: Monarchy is obtained by trading Machinery to WoV.
Turn 136: Civil Service is Completed.
Turn 140: Paper is Completed. Education is Lightbulbed by two GS.
Turn 141: All the Als are connected. Techs trades start: Calendar from Lincoln with Paper; Masonry + Aesthetics + Polytheism from JC with Paper
Turn 142: Construction + Monotheism from Alex with Machinery.

Spoiler :

Turn 141:

Turn 142:

I start the tech trades after I meet all the AI to make sure:
1) I’ll not trade with one’s worst enemy.
2) One AI can’t spread quickly Paper, which is owned only by Pascal and me.
After the tech trades I find their researches are really fast: In turn 142 (640AD), Chemistry and Astronomy are done. However, my tech situation is nearly equivalent: All the old techs can be obtained by trade if I wish, and Education = Astronomy < Gunpowder + Chemistry. An Education will ensure I can bribe Sury/Alex/JC to fight for me if needed. That&#8217;s enough for Control.

If I wish I can obtain all the techs on the trade table, but I don&#8217;t. Two reasons: a gambler should never spend all the money on the first game. The tech advance should be temporarily kept. In addition, the WFYBTA quotas are quite low with them: for Pascal+JC+Alex it&#8217;s 5, for Lincoln+Sury it&#8217;s 10. That means they will decline the tech trade with &#8220;We fear you be too advanced&#8221; when you obtain such number of techs from trade.

Although:

1. it&#8217;s +20% in Deity, that&#8217;s 6 and 10 for them.
2. AI has a probability to &#8220;forget&#8221; one tech you&#8217;ve traded each turn. (5% per turn)
3. WFYBTA won&#8217;t affect the trade with a &#8220;behind&#8221; AI (ranked at the second half on the scoreboard, that's 4th to 7th) if you are also &#8220;behind&#8221;.
4. Their scores are quite close and the ranking varies a lot: everyone can be ranked 4th and unlocks WFYBTA with him.

It&#8217;s still unwise to trade for all techs on the board. Hunting+Archery are too good to skip, HBR as well (if Cuirassier is not expected). The others I can get later. OMG I traded for Polytheism and Masonry. It can be a blunder. I know I was in a hurry to beeline Liber but these cheap techs can have been researched on my own.

 

[shyuhe]

The WFYABTA count also decreases by one each time the AI enters a new tech era.

 

[BornSlippy]

Please carry on with this thread, it's been a wonderful read! I love the discussion and the clash of Civ4 meta-game cultures here

 

[DampRain]

Following all of this with huge interest.

Support

 

[ForGreatJustice]

Indeed, we want more!

 

[Killroyan]

Discussion on the highest level is always nice. Great read so far.