Got this from fe when I came into work this morning
fe3333au said:
Dear team KISS
We have recently received a confusing and very disturbing PM from Tubby Rower that we sincerely hope does not represent the views of all KISSers. We are more than a bit taken aback by his accusations of backstabbing. We refer you to various chats with your citizens and particularly to your official correspondence of January 4, 2006:
Dear Friends of the Green Continent
We have recieved your proposal regarding the trade for Republic, the quest for knowledge of Construction and the wish for peace.
Our teams have, since the dawn of the World of Meleet, had a very pleasant and beneficial relationship. A relationship that has been built on trust and honour. We've had, and still have, the possibility to gaze over the vast ocean and behold the misery created by aggression and feeble minds. We assume neither MIA, nor KISS, would want any of that on our prosperous continent. We also have arranged co-operation in science that are soon to pay off to our mutual benefit. We regard the deal for Republic a grand finale of the above mentioned partnership and, thus, an end of previous made agreements. We would like to maintain a friendly relationship, but also to make way for each team to stand on their own when they decide to. Therefore, the proposed agreement sent by MIA will not be signed by KISS.
If MIA feels this stance makes the deal for Republic impossible to carry through, please notify us.
Now the treaty explicitly forbids withdrawing from the peace portion of our agreement until 10 turns after Republic has been discovered, which you numerous times agreed to uphold, but you made clear that the trading clauses of the treaty were no longer in effect.
We trust that this satisfies Mr. Rower's request for an explanation. Despite TNT's clumsy attempts to create mistrust, MIA has no desire for a mutually destructive war, and we are still looking forward to discussing cooperation for our mutual benefit in the future. Rest asured that TNT will be sent a stern diplomatic letter which will strongly express our outrage in their amateurish attempt to spread disquiet and unrest on our peacefull shores. We are still reeling from this revelation and can only conclude that TNT have their own reasons to goad us into conflict and perhaps wish to see us distracted, after all is there not talk of peace on Battle Island
I reiterate again, as mentioned to Whomp in our last chat, we seek peace nothing else and we extend an open invitation to trade your wines for our ivory. Unfortunately, with regards to your request to be given Construction, this cannot be done as we have given our word in agreement with TNT, a clause don't forget, that would have been in place had you been successful in your bid as well.
I trust that this has answered all your questions and am available to discuss this matter if desired ... My hope, that peace will continue on our shores.
Am I out of line?
There needs to be an interpretation of this written agreement that was filed with the UN. Daghie and my conversation revolved around completing the deal but the deal is not complete if peace is unlimited until stated otherwise. The discussion was based on no further deals and making sure the peace part of the deal was complete.
This part I still dispute since our agreement is still in force as far as I can tell. 4a. Deals with other nations which go beyond simple technology trade at the monopoly beaker cost for, must be agreed to by the other party
and 4. MIA and KISS will offer each other "Most Favoured Nation status". Most Favoured Nation simply means that we will offer what we learn at the monoploy beaker cost less the Emperor trade rate discount of 20% if, and only if, MIA will reciprocate. Other nations will pay monopoly beaker cost. No shared research, no sweet heart deals, just cold number crunching.
Spoiler:
1. VOID
2. MIA and KISS land units stay outside of each other's actual borders, during peace.
3. MIA and KISS sea units don't stay on the same tile in each other's territory for 2 consecutive turns, during the peace
4. MIA and KISS will offer each other "Most Favoured Nation status". Most Favoured Nation simply means that we will offer what we learn at the monoploy beaker cost less the Emperor trade rate discount of 20% if, and only if, MIA will reciprocate. Other nations will pay monopoly beaker cost. No shared research, no sweet heart deals, just cold number crunching.
4a. Deals with other nations which go beyond simple technology trade at the monopoly beaker cost for, must be agreed to by the other party
5. KISS will get Writing while MIA gets Masonry and Mysticism. As soon as KISS gets Writing, the team with the best research capability starts on Code of Laws, while the other team starts on Philosophy. Code of Laws will be discovered first and given to the other party before Philosophy is discovered, so that Republic comes as a free tech.
6. Techs are shared between both teams when Writing and Republic are discovered. We believe this balances out under "Most Favoured Nation" status.
7. MIA and KISS are at peace. Since both of us can't really know what new developments will be in the future, our peace deal is basically unlimited, and can only be terminated at least ten turns beforehand. This shall not be done, before at least 10 turns have passed after the discovery of Republic.
I fear we are straining at gnats here. The one clear thing is that MIA has cause to believe they have not violated any agreements and near as I can tell they have not. We abrogated the trading portion of the treaty, then reaffirmed the part requiring the twenty turns before commencing battle (ten turns after Republic for declaration, ten for first incursion). I don't see that as a problem as they seem to have spent the first five of those turns in anarchy.
So, why not stick to the deal, declare at the appropriate time, patrol the borders for ten turns in strength, see what they will offer us for their continued existence, then strike.
They snookered us good, by distracting us with the threat to withhold polytheism. We were focused on that and left the door open for them to do the deal they did with TNT.
So ride with the plan, then remove them from the earth.
I think we are clear to go to war whenever we want. If you guys want to make it clean, since the discovery of republic voids all previous points in the treaty, we can go ahead and move our stack in their territory.
Also, I think we could ask, with the wording of point 6 that they give us those techs. I'm not very goog with english verb tense, but obviously, that clause does not have any time restriction.
If no one minds I would like to send off a personal salvo on this issue since I feel ultimately responsible with my words and their actions. Let me know if this is ok to foward or any changes you'd suggest.
Dear citizens of MIA,
This letter comes from me personally since I have been singled out and feel fully responslble for the breakdown of this agreement.
In the beginning, there was immediate concern that polytheism would not be delivered, per our agreement, and it was. Thank you for that.
In that conversation Chamnix, Daghdha and I agreed that our current agreement would end after the delivery of techs between the two teams and the techs were delivered. Again I thank you.
However, it seems my words, versus the letter of the agreement, are now being used against my team and for this I have disappointed them immensely. They have told me to forget about it but honestly I can't. I take it as a personal affront that my words are overriding an existing and still continuing agreement. Maybe I should be a lawyer and realize that verbally discussing one part of an agreement means that's the only part left of the current agreement (the peace).
When the current agreement was discussed it was clear that peace would be required and was reaffirmed in the conversation with Chamnix. Unfortunately, the rest of the agreement was not discussed. It seems it should have.
In the agreement and our conversation it states:
Since both of us can't really know what new developments will be in the future, our peace deal is basically unlimited, and can only be terminated at least ten turns beforehand. This shall not be done, before at least 10 turns have passed after the discovery of Republic.
However, as has been pointed out to me like peace numbers 4 and 4b should be inclusive with the current agreement. You obviously don't see it that way and it was my mistake for not including this in that conversation as well. It appears my words now override the balance of this agreement since you gave techs to TNT without "favored nation" or "monopoly beaker" being paid.
For this I am responsible for not properly representing my team's full interests in that conversation and for not discussing the full agreement.
I have apologized to them and am also sorry things have worked out this way between us. I wish you the best of luck in your future with your new partners from TNT.
I don't think you have to apologize for anything Whomp, and I mean it. Sure we're frustrated over being stuck in the peace deal, but anyone could have opposed to it when negotiated (maybe not 4 those who joined later ). And don't forget it works both ways. MIA cannot join in a surprise attack on us. Too bad you feel singled out W. It was in no way my intention with what I wrote. I just tried to give my view on what happened and why we should accept the current situation (although we might disagree on what the current really is).
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I've always (both in conversation with MIA and in here) understood it as OUR wish to end the tech co-op after the rep deal. MIA wanted to extend, but we clearly said NO. I maintain that it feels akward for us to go back to them and say "Hey, waddabout the tech-part? It still holds!". In any case, I don't see that Big advantage with getting rid of the ten turns now. MIA knows/expects us to attack them anyway and have already moved their toops to the border and I'm sure there is soon 2 fortified Hoppies/Pikes on each rescourse.
I suggest we go back to our roots and start being again. There is no point in getting seriously depressed just because we may face a nasty daghpile and get ditched. If we do, let's do it singing that Willie Nelson song "Walking":
After carefully considering the whole situation
I stand with my back to the wall
Walking is better, than runnin' away
And crawling ain't no good at all
Thanks Dagh however I want them to be clear that there were two different deals and I don't think either of us brought up the balance of the first deal. Us, not spelling out 4 and 4b clearly in that discussion was a mistake and they either intentionally not discussing it or also not realizing what it said. One way or the other is was stated. It should be known to them my disappointment. Either way they go sabres rattle.
Whomp, if you think it's good for the team to send that sort of "personal" letter to them, I'd back you on it. However, it almost sounds like you're apologizing to us, and I agree with Daghie that none is owed to anyone.
I'm fine with it Whomp... I think that this ought to get them thinking.
I have apologized to them and am also sorry things have worked out this way between us. I wish you the best of luck in your future with your new partners from TNT.
And btw, anyone can attack at any time. Just because something is in writing, there are no rules saying that a treaty can't be broken. If you assume that the other teams will not be honorable then you'll never be disappointed
Just so you know my intent is to give them a "power takeaway".
They've stated their opinion and used me as leverage so now I must take myself away as their advocate. Let them have Provo and Donsig as their friend. So be it. Game on.
I can either PM Fe and Chamnix or if someone wants to make it official they can gmail it now.
We received a letter from Whomp and would like to address this. He certainly cannot blame himself for the communication breakdown. We were not relying solely on Chamnix’s chat which included Whomp, Tubby and Daghda; but also previous chats and, most of all, your official correspondence signed by Team KISS. Perhaps you are right that techs should have been discussed in more detail in your chat with us, but Chamnix and the other KISSers present also neglected to bring it up. If there was miscommunication, no single individual or single team is to blame.
We felt (and still feel) strongly that KISS had ended the trading clauses of our agreement and left only the peace deal in place, and multiple correspondences led us to this conclusion. We do not see any other reasonable interpretation of your January 4th official correspondence. We are an honourable team and would never have acted as we did had we known that you did not have the same understanding.
SpoilerExamples in the Official Transcripts :
4th January ... the Rejection Letter which appeared soon after the Xmas Deal .. which we were about to agree to
We regard the deal for Republic a grand finale of the above mentioned partnership and, thus, an end of previous made agreements. We would like to maintain a friendly relationship, but also to make way for each team to stand on their own when they decide to. Therefore, the proposed agreement sent by MIA will not be signed by KISS.
6th January ... Alliance is over ... confusion with 10 turns of Warning
fe3333au: When you say after Republic trade we will just be friends ... how does that effect the 10 turns warning to being attacked ... I consider that still to be the case ... am I correct
sixpackholiday: It means that we consider the previous deal ended ... and yes, with it all other arrangements.
Chamnix says:
i believe daghda said that once the rep deal was consumated then our previous agreement was "null and void"?
Whomp says:
it expires with peace the way i read it
Chamnix says:
i don't understand
Whomp says: we both have fulfilled our part of the republic for techs deal
Whomp says:
as long as all techs are included. we are at tech parity
Whomp says: the only remaining part to fulfill is the peace part of the agreement
Drummer Boy says:
what we said in the announcement, IIRC, is that we would like a clean sheet after the rep deal is done in a satisfactory way
Chamnix says:
so you believe the peace deal is still in effect?
Whomp says: if we are at tech parity
Chamnix says:
we thought Daghda meant you were cancelling the peace portion once republic was traded regardless of what techs were involved
<later>
Whomp says:
sorry i was clarifying the peace part of the deal
Whomp says:
needed to review again
Drummer Boy says:
everything is cool
Whomp says:
so after both of us receive techs our deal is complete
Whomp says: except for the 10 turns of peace
Chamnix says:
so we are at peace unless 10 turns warning is given, and no warning has been given so far, correct?
Drummer Boy says: correctemundo
Whomp says:
actually i think it was terminate the peace was 10 turns
<later>
Whomp says:
after republic and the techs are exchanged the deal is complete
Whomp says: then we can either renegotiate peace or turn it off. there is 10 turns minimum of peace after the deal is done
Whomp is searching for:
there is also 10 turns warning
Whomp says: if you or we say no then there's also a 10 turn warning from there
Chamnix says:
i think we agree....
Chamnix says: mandatory 10 turns peace after republic, then peace unless someone gives 10 turns warning?
Whomp says:
the peace part is complex. lol
Whomp says:
i'll have daghie post
Drummer Boy says:
i think you have it there Cham...
Drummer Boy says: after rep is in we have 10 turns of no declaring anything
Whomp says:
brb
Drummer Boy says: after those 10 turns one side can declare that they will strike in 10 turns, but not before
Chamnix says:
got it
Drummer Boy says:
i think we agree there
Drummer Boy says: that is the current deal as i read it
As the above correspondence examples indicate, it was very clear to us that KISS intended to leave the tech-trading restrictions part of our treaty behind - and so we didn't think twice about moving on also. We were not relying solely on Whomp's words, but chats with multiple members of KISS confirmed the meaning of your official correspondence.
TNT was always a second choice as partner for us - we would much rather return to KISSMIA. Unfortunately, due to the perceived strain in KISSMIA, we were forced to agree not to provide you with techs traded with TNT as a caveat they placed on the deal, and we cannot break our word. We realize there will be strain caused by our being ahead in technology, but we hope there is a way to work around this – after millennia of friendship it would be awful to see our continent descend into the same type of destructive warfare that has plagued the Battle Isle.
As a team, we highly value our honour. Please understand that if we had believed that KISS expected the trade restrictions to still be in place, we would not have done anything that could be taken as us breaking our word. (refer to our polytheism deal – even though we didn't see things the same way, we honoured what KISS understood to be MIA's promise.)
Regardless of how all the issues in our past happened – the bottom line is that you scared us immensely when you repeatedly signalled (in chats and official correspondence) your intention to abandon the treaty that has made both our empires rich and strong.
We panicked, and scrambled to find a new ally to save us from what we were certain was an impending attack. However, since Whomp confessed to mis-communicating your intentions with us, we have found new reason to hope that perhaps it was not your intention to bring our mutual peace to a violent end.
We would therefore like to offer a gift of Ivory for 20 turns as soon as you have completed a harbour, as a sign of goodwill and as a simple starting place to get back on the road to peace beyond the stipulated and agreed turn 104.
I don't like it a bit, but reality bites here. If I were in their shoes I would have responded exactly the same . The one good thing in here is the offer for free Ivory . Why would they do that if they weren't scared about us attacking? It suggests there is no planned daghpile ATM. I think their answer would have been harcher and snottier if there was. Of course we don't need it...
means that MIA has a good point, in that they are not twisting and turning to mold that point out of the official documents and chats. As far as honour goes, they are clean.
The rest of Daghs analysis seems sounds: they anticipate our attack and they fear it because nobody will come to their rescue... MWUHAHAHAAA!
I don't like doing this to friends (I've gotten to know some of them during this game), but in game they are rivals. I agree with Crakie here that they are clean as a whistle and prolly don't have a dog-pile ensuing. We don't need ivory. But we do need their land . Most of the active players are idiots anyway.. shouldn't they be here with the rest of us?
Unless....they anticipated that we would see this as a sign of weakness, and decide to attack them, and they actually DO have a dogpile waiting for us...
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again. There is no point in getting seriously depressed just because we may face a nasty daghpile and get ditched. If we do, let's do it singing that Willie Nelson song "Walking":
. The one good thing in here is the offer for free Ivory 
. Why would they do that if they weren't scared about us attacking? It suggests there is no planned daghpile ATM. I think their answer would have been harcher and snottier if there was. Of course we don't need it...
