Diplomacy wrong?

[kaltorak]

Hi, I don't know if I'm doing something wrong with diplomacy, or if the system is just a bit bad.

The diplomacy AI seems to be very bad, and also very harsh towards the player. It happens in all my games, but I'll tell you the example of the game I'm playing right now:

Soon I decided to focus my diplomacy into beeing allies with 2 nations. I do everything for them, accept all the want, try to have same religion, attack their enemies and don't attack their friends. I do that since the start of the game, and it is 1900 already. All the modifiers are green, and about +10 in total.

But still they don't act like friends. It is not that they don't accept my offers, it's even worse. I can't do any offers because everything is red, can't even select it. Technologies, war declarations, religion changes.... I can't even try to trade because they are all red. I have declared war multiple times on their requests and I can't even ask them to help me because it appears red...

And what yesterday happened was worse of all. Like I said I have all green modifiers. Suddenly he asks me to declare war to a faction. I accept, build units, attack a city of that nation, and take it. So I go back to see how much the diplomacy modifiers improved (since not only did I declare war to his enemy, but I even captured a city)... and now I had 2 negative modifiers. One was for tight frontiers or something like that and the other for doing bad things in the past. And the only thing I did was declare war as he wished and even help him taking a city taht was attacking him.

And things like this happen in all my games. Diplomacy looks first too harsh on the player, and second it even makes no sense at all like those bad modifiers i got for doing exactly what he asked for.

Any comments? Anything that I'm doing wrong? I really love diplomacy, but for me this game is not having anything, since 90% of the options are just always red.

 

[Charonicus]

It could use some tweaking. For example, I wish a 'friendly' AI would be more lenient, more open to tech trades, more willing to help in a war if you were declared on rather than the other way round, less worried about close borders causing tension and less likely to make demands of you.
But then it could be argued that maintaining friendships requires some work and these modifiers attempt to emulate that.

For a real world example. England and America would probably be considered 'friendly' to each other. Mutual military struggle bonus, open borders, sharing techs and all that. Still doesn't prevent a bit of tension occasionally, like the fuss over the extradition treaty that's kicking up a s***storm over here at the moment.

As for the red options. You need to pay attention to *why* the options are red.
War for example. If the AI won't declare because "They have enough on their hands" then they are either at war, or planning one. If they are "scared of their military might" then you need to weaken your enemy first.
Tech trading. "We fear you are becoming too advanced" means it's late in the game and they'd rather like to keep their edge for a space race. "We don't want to start trading this tech just yet" means they are either trying to build the associated wonder or they just finished researching it and are waiting for some decent trades while they preserve a little advantage.

Religion changes are really only gonna happen in early game. If the AI founds a religion it will almost always want to run that religion, especially if it builds the shrine. If the AI has simply picked up religion from another civ, then to change it you will need to spread a different religion to more of their cities. This would be redded out with "Too few of our people follow that faith."

But yeah, they can be a bit too pushy. We just have to accept that where we can only ask, they will demand. If you get tired of their refusals to help then kill them. Also, choose more amiable allies. try befriending someone like Hatty rather than say Hannibal (Who's a dick... really.)

 

[Yared]

Which leaders were you trying to please?

 

[kaltorak]

Thanks for the advice.

The reasons for all options beeing red is almost always, we don't trust you enough. But like I said I got lots of green modifiers including +5 for common war and other things. I don't know how else I could please them, I would say that is enough for at least leting me make them offers.

I mean, I declared war 3 times because they asked me too, and I can't even try to ask them to do the same for me, because they don't trust me? Doesn't look even real.

It's the mongols Im talking about. I know they are aggresive, but still i got lots of positive modifiers. And in some guides I've read that aggresive civs are good for making them attack others. But it won't let me ask them.

And there is still the incident with last war. Any idea why I got 2 negative modifieres for doing what he asked me too?

 

[Yared]

Mongols? I'd give up if I were you; they're very hard to please.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Kublai likes bureaucracy so is pretty easy to get to friendly any time he's not immediately bordering you at start.

 

[Yared]

kkk lemme rephrase it: Genghis is very hard to please

 

[Jedi_Otis]

Just because they love you doesn't mean they're going to give you everything you want. That's just the way it is.

Sometimes negative diplo modifiers are completely unavoidable. "close borders spark tension" is one of them. If I'm not mistaken, the "bad things in the past" modifier is caused by a negative random event- diplo "faux paux" or the bad wedding thingee fall into that category and are unavoidable.

One slight correction I'd like to make to what Charonicus pointed out. "we don't want to trade that tech yet" is because they have a monoploy on that tech and prolly won't trade it until someone else has it. "We have our reasons" I believe is the reason they give when building the associated wonder.

 

[Charonicus]

Just because they love you doesn't mean they're going to give you everything you want. That's just the way it is.

Sometimes negative diplo modifiers are completely unavoidable. "close borders spark tension" is one of them. If I'm not mistaken, the "bad things in the past" modifier is caused by a negative random event- diplo "faux paux" or the bad wedding thingee fall into that category and are unavoidable.

One slight correction I'd like to make to what Charonicus pointed out. "we don't want to trade that tech yet" is because they have a monoploy on that tech and prolly won't trade it until someone else has it. "We have our reasons" I believe is the reason they give when building the associated wonder.

Thanks for the clarification there.

 

[kaltorak]

Well I never wanted them to do everything I want. But if they are friends to me and I declared war 3 times on their request, least I would like is that they let me ask them to declare war to somebody who is attacking me. But the option is just red. What type of friends are that.

I started a new game, and put lots of leaders there who I thought to be friendly. Well indeed they are friendly. I have 3 friends in this game, but they still don't give me many options. So the problem is not getting friends, but to get them act like real allies.

My problem is I love the games where I end up allied with a few, at war with other allied factions. But in civ4 I can't manage to get allies, even if I work towards it since the start.

 

[Charonicus]

Yeah. It's also just been brought up in another thread that even if you do bribe an AI to go to war it will cost you. When was the last time someone turned up offering you a tech for war?

 

[hexem3117]

I've gotten AI's to give me techs to go to war...

 

[Lone Wolf]

I've gotten AI's to give me techs to go to war...

What? That's physically impossible.

 

[King Kalmah]

What? That's physically impossible.

I think he means on the lower levels

 

[Flambo]

Also worth considering is your military might in comparison to your "friends". Both from my reading and from personal experience, I think the AI is more likely to submit to demands/requests when you're more powerful than they are.

 

[Lone Wolf]

I think he means on the lower levels

That's physically impossible no matter what level it is.

 

[kaltorak]

Also worth considering is your military might in comparison to your "friends". Both from my reading and from personal experience, I think the AI is more likely to submit to demands/requests when you're more powerful than they are.

I think you might be right. I always focus on tech, and for military I prefer to have cities that can produce units fast when I need them, than building units all the time. So even if I'm on top of score, my military strength is very low. I tried to build an army and Im getting better results.

But it doesn't make much sense. If I were threatening them to give you something, it would be reasonable, but if they are friends and I ask for trade and they say "we don't trust you enough".... exactly because I don't have an army you should trust me moron!