Diplomacy

[SlightlyMad]

You can disable the victory condition in the Advanced Setup of the game.

Or, you can do the City-State Diplomacy mod. It requires you to produce diplo units and deliver them to the CS to gain favor. It adds a time component to swaying CSes to you, since you can't simply BRIBE BRIBE BRIBE. It's one of my default mods now.

It's not that I think that victory condition shouldn't be an option, I just think it should be a bit harder. Does the CS Diplomacy mod work well with this one? I looked at it and it seemed interesting, but couldn't you just use that same money to purchase the diplomat units and effectively it would be the exact same system with just a delay of a few turns to move them over?

 

[doktorstick]

It works well. You can spend money, but the units have a +400% (or somesuch) cost value added to them. Also, with each era (more specifically a tech in an era), the unis become more expensive to build (and at a further increase in cost).

You can buy the unit, and you can still bribe the CSes (but the costs are much much higher, multi-thousands of gold). The big difference is that it takes a concerted effort to get your diplomatic unit transported to the CSes' land (protected from villains) and that takes time. The effect is seen much more on larger maps. You are more likely to be friends with nearby neighbors than distant ones.

I haven't noticed problems. The AI can be pretty brutal when fighting for favor over a CS. (Nothing like seeing four embarked diplo units cruising up to a rival CS.)

 

[SlightlyMad]

So it sounds like it moves CS bribing from being gold-dependent to being mostly production-dependent, then? I'll give it a shot, as that can only be an improvement really, but I assume that would still mean a civ with good production capabilities would be able to gain the 7 or 8 allies needed to win fairly easily.

 

[rhammer640]

Also you can only have 2 diplo units at once so you cant just spam them and send 8 or 10 out at once, you have to send them slowly which makes things a lot harder, also the fact that closer CS are easier to get makes every game feel different rather then just finding and allying every maritime.

 

[Thalassicus]

I agree about the CS diplomacy mod, I think it really enhances CS gameplay and makes the diplomacy victory condition much more difficult. I feel it's the best solution to that problem.

 

[rhammer640]

have you considered talking to gazebo about having it included in the balance mod?

 

[Txurce]

I agree about the CS diplomacy mod, I think it really enhances CS gameplay and makes the diplomacy victory condition much more difficult. I feel it's the best solution to that problem.

The added difficulty would also inherently enhance the attractiveness of the alternative - conquering any given CS.

 

[rhammer640]

The added difficulty would also inherently enhance the attractiveness of the alternative - conquering any given CS.

true, although if you include the mod you would have to deal with the fact that gazebo took out all quests to take over CS and made it so no AI would try to take over CS's either

 

[Ahriman]

I agree about the CS diplomacy mod, I think it really enhances CS gameplay and makes the diplomacy victory condition much more difficult. I feel it's the best solution to that problem.

I would strongly recommend against adding a requirement where you have to physically move diplomat units around to the Balance mod.

I (and I suspect many others) would find that tedious, dull MM busywork, that would make city states much less fun.

It would also be something that the AI would do an utterly terrible job of handling. The AI is bad enough about getting CS allies as it is. *Please* don't make it harder for them.

 

[Txurce]

true, although if you include the mod you would have to deal with the fact that gazebo took out all quests to take over CS and made it so no AI would try to take over CS's either

That, and the adjustments it would create for TBC, is probably why it shouldn't be included in the package. It becomes an interesting, but quite different game, unless Thal were to mod the quests (and some AI vs CS aggressiveness) back in.

 

[rhammer640]

I would strongly recommend against adding a requirement where you have to physically move diplomat units around to the Balance mod.

I (and I suspect many others) would find that tedious, dull MM busywork, that would make city states much less fun.

It would also be something that the AI would do an utterly terrible job of handling. The AI is bad enough about getting CS allies as it is. *Please* don't make it harder for them.

I'm fine with not adding it in as they work fine together as is. Have you tried the mod though? Its not dull MM work at all and adds a lot of fun to CSs. The AI actually handles this very very well and actively competes for CS just like before.

If it was added it would need to be tweaked to fit with TBC. I only mentioned it because Thal posted that he feels its the best solution to making Diplomatic victories harder, and i know a lot of ppl already use it, but as i said above, its not a priority for me.

 

[Ahriman]

If you want to make diplomatic victory harder, then I think the solution is to make the AI compete much more vigorously for city states in the late game, when the UN is built, or when one player has lots of them as allies.
And potentially to introduce a system so you can only make 1 city-state influence purchase per turn.

No need for creating an entirely new mechanic through physical on-map unit.

 

[Seek]

I'm fine with not adding it in as they work fine together as is. Have you tried the mod though? Its not dull MM work at all and adds a lot of fun to CSs. The AI actually handles this very very well and actively competes for CS just like before.

I was about to post the same thing. It adds a lot more strategy to the whole mechanic.

If it was added it would need to be tweaked to fit with TBC. I only mentioned it because Thal posted that he feels its the best solution to making Diplomatic victories harder, and i know a lot of ppl already use it, but as i said above, its not a priority for me.

If anyone wants to turn the CS's kill quests in CSD back on (I always do because of the bonuses here), it's really easy! Open the Gameplay folder, then CityStates.xml; find the line "quest_disabled_kill_city_state" and change the value to zero.

 

[rhammer640]

Yeah, i dont think it would take a whole lot of work to balance it, ive been using them together as is for months with no issues, and i suppose if thal made it so that it had its own folder then those that find they dont like it could always delete the folder.

 

[Txurce]

Yeah, i dont think it would take a whole lot of work to balance it, ive been using them together as is for months with no issues, and i suppose if thal made it so that it had its own folder then those that find they dont like it could always delete the folder.

Given what Seek just posted, this seems reasonable. I haven't played it yet, but will give it a try once this neighborhood settles down.

 

[Sneaks]

To make the system really work, there are several changes I would consider.

First, I would want to create a tally system for each CS. Every turn you are friends with a CS, you get 1 point. Every turn as allies is worth 2. Being friends at Vote nets maybe 15-20 points, and being allies at Vote nets 30-40 points. The CS votes for the civilization with whom it has the most points. This system would reward long-term relationships in a way that it totally ignores right now. The bonus points for friend/ally at vote would also create value for bribery.

Another reason I like the point system is you could conceivably have a vote that extends for decades as Civs try to accrue the needed points, creating a build up more similar to Apollo Program.

Concerns would be AI handling of the extended vote.

Second, and much more difficult to ever implement would be giving each major civilization 2 votes. 1 vote would be leader choice, and the second would be an automated population vote. The population would have a point system similar to the above one, with factors like happiness and culture. Happy empires net 1 point a turn, unhappy -1, very unhappy -2. Each adopted policy might be worth a one time bonus of 5 points. Ambassador units could be trained to go into rival territory and amass 20 points with that civ's population. Obviously, all theoretical numbers at this point.
On top of the point system, a war started with another civ will remove 20+ points from each others populations, denouncement -10, and a DoF will add 10+. Having the Police State policy would guarantee the population would vote for it's leader as well.

The second idea here is designed with the goal of making diplomatic victories involve much more than minor civ counts. It would be an active dynamic where players are strongly rewarded for peace but get bonuses for cunning (ambassadors).

 

[rhammer640]

To make the system really work, there are several changes I would consider.

First, I would want to create a tally system for each CS. Every turn you are friends with a CS, you get 1 point. Every turn as allies is worth 2. Being friends at Vote nets maybe 15-20 points, and being allies at Vote nets 30-40 points. The CS votes for the civilization with whom it has the most points. This system would reward long-term relationships in a way that it totally ignores right now. The bonus points for friend/ally at vote would also create value for bribery.

Another reason I like the point system is you could conceivably have a vote that extends for decades as Civs try to accrue the needed points, creating a build up more similar to Apollo Program.

Concerns would be AI handling of the extended vote.

Second, and much more difficult to ever implement would be giving each major civilization 2 votes. 1 vote would be leader choice, and the second would be an automated population vote. The population would have a point system similar to the above one, with factors like happiness and culture. Happy empires net 1 point a turn, unhappy -1, very unhappy -2. Each adopted policy might be worth a one time bonus of 5 points. Ambassador units could be trained to go into rival territory and amass 20 points with that civ's population. Obviously, all theoretical numbers at this point.
On top of the point system, a war started with another civ will remove 20+ points from each others populations, denouncement -10, and a DoF will add 10+. Having the Police State policy would guarantee the population would vote for it's leader as well.

The second idea here is designed with the goal of making diplomatic victories involve much more than minor civ counts. It would be an active dynamic where players are strongly rewarded for peace but get bonuses for cunning (ambassadors).

Sneaks your my hero, lol. This sounds amazing (a lot of work maybe) but this is the first suggestion ive heard that would actually really make me want to pursue a diplomatic victory.

You could also have points for filling out an entire social policy tree that they have points in or something like that. I think the key is how it starts to tie the different victory conditions together so that they are not mutually exclusive. Also points could be had for open borders which would make them actually usefull, lol

 

[Seek]

To make the system really work, there are several changes I would consider.

First, I would want to create a tally system for each CS. Every turn you are friends with a CS, you get 1 point. Every turn as allies is worth 2. Being friends at Vote nets maybe 15-20 points, and being allies at Vote nets 30-40 points. The CS votes for the civilization with whom it has the most points. This system would reward long-term relationships in a way that it totally ignores right now. The bonus points for friend/ally at vote would also create value for bribery.

Another reason I like the point system is you could conceivably have a vote that extends for decades as Civs try to accrue the needed points, creating a build up more similar to Apollo Program.

Concerns would be AI handling of the extended vote.

Second, and much more difficult to ever implement would be giving each major civilization 2 votes. 1 vote would be leader choice, and the second would be an automated population vote. The population would have a point system similar to the above one, with factors like happiness and culture. Happy empires net 1 point a turn, unhappy -1, very unhappy -2. Each adopted policy might be worth a one time bonus of 5 points. Ambassador units could be trained to go into rival territory and amass 20 points with that civ's population. Obviously, all theoretical numbers at this point.
On top of the point system, a war started with another civ will remove 20+ points from each others populations, denouncement -10, and a DoF will add 10+. Having the Police State policy would guarantee the population would vote for it's leader as well.

The second idea here is designed with the goal of making diplomatic victories involve much more than minor civ counts. It would be an active dynamic where players are strongly rewarded for peace but get bonuses for cunning (ambassadors).

Agree this sounds great. You should talk to Gazebo - he hasn't done much with the mod recently, but I'm pretty sure he's open to more ideas like these. (IIRC, he also doesn't have much lua experience so he may need a hand with these kind of changes.)

EDIT - btw, Sneaks, did you get my PM?

 

[Sneaks]

I did, but haven't had a chance to really think about that yet. Updating all my mods for new patches is practically a full time job.

 

[Ahriman]

First, I would want to create a tally system for each CS. Every turn you are friends with a CS, you get 1 point. Every turn as allies is worth 2. Being friends at Vote nets maybe 15-20 points, and being allies at Vote nets 30-40 points. The CS votes for the civilization with whom it has the most points. This system would reward long-term relationships in a way that it totally ignores right now. The bonus points for friend/ally at vote would also create value for bribery.

I think this would be interesting.

I think the idea in general of a Diplomatic victory should be trying to model a Cold-War type scenario, where major powers are competing with each other to purchase the loyalty of minor states.

This also seems like a much more minor change; you aren't affecting the mechanics of getting CS alliances, which is nice and simple and elegant, only the mechanics of achieving the diplomatic victory.

You could also have the owner of the UN wonder accumulate tally points at 50% faster rate.
Would be nice to give some bonus to the owner.