Diplomacy

[SlightlyMad]

Rather thank tinker with the numbers, anyone have any hard ratios they would like me to test out with CSD? Just drop the XML here so we can give it a try. I'm terribly busy with teaching (had an extra course dumped on me mid-semester because of a sick colleague), otherwise I would tinker with the numbers myself. The best numbers get nods in the next version of CSD!

I'd be happy to tinker with some new settings in my next game. Do you mind sharing your rationale for the current settings so we can use that for comparison?

 

[Gazebo]

I'd be happy to tinker with some new settings in my next game. Do you mind sharing your rationale for the current settings so we can use that for comparison?

Current settings? Which are you referring to? CSD currently uses vanilla ratios (close to it) or, where applicable, Thal's ratios.

 

[SlightlyMad]

I'm referring to the settings you mentioned having control over: "Just cost, the gold:influence ratio and the rate of decline for this ratio."

Obviously you've changed at least the cost, but it sounds like you're saying you use the same vanilla gold:influence ratio and rate of decline?

I'd say the most important thing to increase is the rate of decline. The increased base cost means you have to plan ahead a bit to bribe a CS, but if the ratio and rate of decline are still the same, it ultimately means paying them off is cheaper because fewer gifts mean it declines slower.

I'd suggest making the rate of decline very severe (maybe 5-10x the vanilla rate). This means that paying off a CS in an emergency bidding war or something a few times in the game would work out well, but if you tried to use it as your main method of maintaining AI relations, you'll quickly end up with diminishing returns.

 

[Gazebo]

I'm referring to the settings you mentioned having control over: "Just cost, the gold:influence ratio and the rate of decline for this ratio."

Obviously you've changed at least the cost, but it sounds like you're saying you use the same vanilla gold:influence ratio and rate of decline?

I'd say the most important thing to increase is the rate of decline. The increased base cost means you have to plan ahead a bit to bribe a CS, but if the ratio and rate of decline are still the same, it ultimately means paying them off is cheaper because fewer gifts mean it declines slower.

I'd suggest making the rate of decline very severe (maybe 5-10x the vanilla rate). This means that paying off a CS in an emergency bidding war or something a few times in the game would work out well, but if you tried to use it as your main method of maintaining AI relations, you'll quickly end up with diminishing returns.

The problem with the decline ratio is that it is tied to game turns, not to diminishing returns. So it goes down regardless of how many times you've bribed a CS.

 

[Thalassicus]

It's very difficult to change gold:influence factors, the formula is cumbersome and the variables we have access to as modders aren't designed very well.

 

[Gazebo]

It's very difficult to change gold:influence factors, the formula is cumbersome and the variables we have access to as modders aren't designed very well.

Yeah, I tried messing with those variables a few months back with little empirical success.

Oh and I meant to ask you (Thal) about an odd Balance-Combined experience I am having. While testing CSD along with your Balance mod, every turn one of the primary player's cities would generate the 'gold halo' effect and sound (the one you get when a unit is selected via the 'end turn' button) for no apparent reason– it would happen with or without units in the city, with or without city growth and with or without CSD enabled. I know this is off-topic, so let me know if you want me to redact this and put it elsewhere.

G

 

[Seek]

Oh and I meant to ask you (Thal) about an odd Balance-Combined experience I am having. While testing CSD along with your Balance mod, every turn one of the primary player's cities would generate the 'gold halo' effect and sound (the one you get when a unit is selected via the 'end turn' button) for no apparent reason– it would happen with or without units in the city, with or without city growth and with or without CSD enabled. I know this is off-topic, so let me know if you want me to redact this and put it elsewhere.

G

That's the starvation notices that are incorrect because of the reworked Maritime food - the game thinks cities are starving when they're not. Thal hid them as much as possible but couldn't eliminate the glow and sound effects.

Also, Gazebo, I know it's a little late, but if you're still thinking of making a TBC version of CSD it would be cool if the National Wonders mechanic (building only required in 80% of cities) worked for the Foreign Office.

 

[SlightlyMad]

Yeah, I tried messing with those variables a few months back with little empirical success.
G

Is it possible to turn off monetary gifts completely, then?

 

[Seek]

Is it possible to turn off monetary gifts completely, then?

They were turned off for a while, but the AI didn't like it. But I agree that the influence from gold should be greatly lowered.

 

[Gazebo]

Is it possible to turn off monetary gifts completely, then?

For humans, yes. For the AI? Nope!

 

[QDI]

But you can change the amounts at least?

So turn off for humans and put it at 10,000 GP for AI?

QDI

 

[Gazebo]

But you can change the amounts at least?

So turn off for humans and put it at 10,000 GP for AI?

QDI

Yes, but that's a bit unfair to both sides (the humans being blocked out and the AI being...less than human concerning pathing, etc.).

I'm working on an update as we speak.
G

 

[Gazebo]

I've posted an updated CSD on my thread (see last page for attachment). Feel free to test the new gold-influence values. That's all I changed for this one (that, and brought CSD in line with Thal's mod re: 80% Forums for FO).

Check CSD thread for mod.
G

 

[Stalker0]

I tried CSD yesterday combined with Thal's mod.

I liked the concept, it definitely made diplomacy more interactive. I had cared about where city states were located in the world now.

Here are a few thoughts:

1) The AIS are really good at using this system. What's interesting to me is that the AIs add so much influence to a city state that honestly 60 inf will not get my allies most of the time. Sometimes I had to get 400 + influence to bag an ally!

I don't know if that is desired, but it definitely makes it difficult.

2) The new +25% bonus for Patronage doesn't feel that strong to me. Generally I get my hammer cities cranking out a diplomat to the point where the +25% wouldn't do anything for me.

3) Thal's Mod currently gives a ton of gold, so I was stil buying allies through money quite a bit. Even 3k gold wasn't a problem for me. But I think that's more on Thal's current mod than this one.

 

[Gazebo]

I tried CSD yesterday combined with Thal's mod.

I liked the concept, it definitely made diplomacy more interactive. I had cared about where city states were located in the world now.

Here are a few thoughts:

1) The AIS are really good at using this system. What's interesting to me is that the AIs add so much influence to a city state that honestly 60 inf will not get my allies most of the time. Sometimes I had to get 400 + influence to bag an ally!

I don't know if that is desired, but it definitely makes it difficult.

2) The new +25% bonus for Patronage doesn't feel that strong to me. Generally I get my hammer cities cranking out a diplomat to the point where the +25% wouldn't do anything for me.

3) Thal's Mod currently gives a ton of gold, so I was stil buying allies through money quite a bit. Even 3k gold wasn't a problem for me. But I think that's more on Thal's current mod than this one.

1.) They are good! They are hit-or-miss concerning purchasing alliances, but they are lethal with diplo units.

2.) The bonus is geared to work with the Forum and the FO to give you a theoretic 100% bonus on diplo production (at least in one city). Modifiers like arsenals, etc. add to this. I have considered (if possible) adding a +1 movement to the Patronage policy to make it more tempting. Honestly, however, I mainly created the new policy to replace the gold-gifting bonus vanilla policy.

3.) Overabundance of gold is a problem, esp. for the AI. 2.9.2. (the working version I posted on the CSD thread) is tinkering with this.

 

[Stalker0]

Modifiers like arsenals, etc. add to this. I have considered (if possible) adding a +1 movement to the Patronage policy to make it more tempting.

If it affects embarked movement I'm in!

 

[Gazebo]

If it affects embarked movement I'm in!

That's not a bad idea– I have considered adding a coastal variant of the FO (a 'Customs House') that would grant diplo. units additional embark speed.

G

 

[Thalassicus]

I didn't even know it was possible to increase embarkation speed for just one unit class, though I didn't investigate thoroughly. It'd be cool if you can do it! They move so slow at sea.

 

[Gazebo]

I didn't even know it was possible to increase embarkation speed for just one unit class, though I didn't investigate thoroughly. It'd be cool if you can do it! They move so slow at sea.

I'm almost positive that you can, though I could be mistaken. It seems like it should be possible (considering that you can increase the speed of individual unit-classes on land), though if the 'should be possible' rule actually applied to Civ 5 modding we wouldn't be so hamstrung.

In any case, I'll take a look when I get home tonight and report back.

Edit: slow embarkation was my rationale for creating the WTO wonder (parachuting diplo units FTW), so perhaps I have tried this before and forgotten?

 

[QDI]

I had a strange situation yesterday. I am attacked by Iroquois, I knock them back, accept peace.

20 turns later, I declare war to finish them and in 4-5 turns, the whole world turns on me (even friendly civilizations). I am now at war with 2/3 of civilizations.

I have never played Vanilla so I guess I experimented my first "Chain denounciation".

What is fun is the fact that before my war with Iroquois (and in my previous game), the world was really nice. Now it is chaos.

QDI