Diplomatic Relations

I will try to keep this brief but will likely fail :(
When going to table, what do we want? I do not mean "pieces" here like chamnix, but what do we want to build as a big picture? At the moment I see three options (fill me in):
1. We go for an honest co-op with MIA. We decide wether to trick others or not based on this alliance. We share as much as possible with MIA so to focus on our shared continent as a power house. We then direct that power overseas in a joint campaign and duke it out v/s MIA when TNT/Nuts are ditched. This scenario is built on mutual trust. For now trust is a weak thing which was demonstrated clearly in our meeting. We should think up ways of showing our trust in them but also how to make them do the same. The sooner this can be accompished, the bigger advantage we will have towards others. If we dance around long enough, TNT and Nuts will (maybe) leave us behind copying our strat. If KISS and MIA can agree on how to handle Nuts and TNT, we will be huge. I would be reluctant to spell this scenario out for them but wait some to get them propose it themselves. I think we have pointed in a direction already.
2. We will two-time anyone when we feel appropriate. This is the bad guy way and will rely solely on military power. Opponents will soon enough turn against us and question is how we can become so stong that they don't dogpile us. They will be tempted to ally against us, especially when they notice we focus on arms. In this scenario the greek connection will maintain the greedy flavour.
3. Wing it. We have no long term strat, but take it as it comes. This is a flexible and possibly laid back style that suits anarchists but I don't think it will hold over time.

Please add more options and then let's vote on it. I think it will make it a lot more easy to handle contacts if this is somewhat clear within KISS.

Theese scenarios/strats can of course be layed out in much more detail but the reason for me babbling about it is I think we would gain on deciding which way to go in general. I favour the first one as you might have guessed ;) .
I agree w Whomps when it comes to "how to win". I want us to be dependable and fair and back that up with strenght (cliché alarm :vomit: ). Not devious dealbreakers, short changeing neighbours and bickering about gold pieces. Everybody knows that, in the end, hell will break loose and friends will turn to foes, but I believe that can be done in different ways.
If we show trust in MIA and they fool us, I will fight for revenge until game over and I will feel great about our team, no matter the outcome. If they don't fool us, I believe we will win this game.
When we meet the Greeks nxt time I propose we demonstrate trust in them first and foremost. If that is a success future neg's will go much smoother and the continent will start ticking nicely. I'm not sure about how this should be done (I'm but a mere blind rat remember :cool: ). Is it dog gone stupid to gift them one small town for one turn and then have them gifting it back the next? What else can we come up with that could facilitate this trust buissness?
I also propose we assign smaller groups of Kissers to work out the following:
-Mutual research plan. I would set Bugsy and Pentium as chairmen of this board.
-Mutual plan on how to handle future (soon to be) contacts w Nuts/TNT. This assumes they speak straight and true about not having met any yet.
-Agreement on how to handle the rex era. We want free hands in settling all over the place and they know we will out-rex them. Can we sooth their worries about that w/o giving away our edge?
-A proposal to MIA on how to handle future negotiations regarding logistics, participants etc. Barbu, gma?

Bummer...I'm an anarchist pushing for "dicussion-groups", pathetic indeed.

I just want to add that pretending to be a big plan maker is loads of fun but still just pretending. In RL I'm not at all like this.....trust me....please :lol:
 
Dagh the Big Plan Anarchist said:
-Mutual research plan. I would set Bugsy and Pentium as chairmen of this board.
i would add tubby here. his numbers will win the day here.

Dagh the Big Plan Anarchist said:
1. We go for an honest co-op with MIA.
id term it Semi-Honest. we work on the assumption that they are going to XX us.
we keep our army strong enough to make them bleed bad, but not enough to goto the otherside of the water.
units of a more offensive nature. im thinking GSwords, horses, knights. a fast response team. lean and mean.

Dagh the Big Plan Anarchist said:
We should think up ways of showing our trust in them but also how to make them do the same.
instead of gifting towns (which would tell them EXACTLY where we are now (which is bad), we give/LEND them a worker or two, no strings attached. say for five turns. they sure can use those worker turns. its not too many to warrant too many worries. they in return could offer some cash compensation. even a 3g price would be worth it i guess. to us both.

Dagh the Big Plan Anarchist said:
-Agreement on how to handle the rex era. We want free hands in settling all over the place and they know we will out-rex them. Can we sooth their worries about that w/o giving away our edge?
we can agree, LATER on, after we know the basic layout of the land, on a NATURAL border (a river, a mountain range, etc) and divide it up.
we should settle very agressively till then, trying to get the best land. they would surely do the same.
we can also outsource some workers to them.
 
I will stick by my original suggestion. Full cooperation with MIA.

If we would like to show good faith we can tell them about the ivory (or incense or both) their warrior will likely miss on the coast. To me, this is an offer in good faith that honestly we would not be able to use (ivory too far) or need (incense). We could eventually go so far as tell them about the dyes (if they go north) they'll see it within about 4-5 turns.

Shared everything. Research, excess resources, luxs, contacts and military ops.
There will very soon come a point where we have dyes and they have contacts. We want both of these to be shared IMO.

In my scheme of the world we either..
A) fight after the others are gone from the planet. IMO our best possible victory condition.
or
B) Agree to stay at peace all the way through till one of us either builds the spaceship or wins by culture.

Organizationally, I like Daghie's idea of team leaders. If these people are empowered to make decisions in their respective area it will add efficiency and expendiency. In the process, they can gather support and garner opinions from the whole team.
 
Give them workers :eek: Are you guys nuts? I don't think that we need to prove our trust to them. We showed our's first and they were VERY, VERY reluctant to give us info that we had just told them that we knew.

I really don't trust them. I hope that this was just the way the Ken cam off, but I saw it a tad in EMp. Killyouall too. I don't like giving a worker or a city. If they want a trust thing then I would feel more comfortable with a "we give them 100 G and they give us 4 gpt (+20 in their favor).
 
Tubby Rower said:
Give them workers :eek: Are you guys nuts? I don't think that we need to prove our trust to them. We showed our's first and they were VERY, VERY reluctant to give us info that we had just told them that we knew.
Agreed Tubs. No workers. They are inefficient for either of team as slaves anyhow. There are better means of cooperation.
Tubs said:
I really don't trust them. I hope that this was just the way the Ken cam off, but I saw it a tad in EMp. Killyouall too. I don't like giving a worker or a city. If they want a trust thing then I would feel more comfortable with a "we give them 100 G and they give us 4 gpt (+20 in their favor).
I think they want what we want. If you read Rambuchan's comments they understand our concerns.
 
Yes but Rambuchan also said that he hasn't been involved lately as well....

EDIT::: I went into that meeting expecting us to be fully open (which we were) and them to return the guesture (which they did not). I am still open to full and complete cooperation with them, but I smell something and it's not in my daughter's diaper!!
 
Tubby Rower said:
Yes but Rambuchan also said that he hasn't been involved lately as well....

EDIT::: I went into that meeting expecting us to be fully open (which we were) and them to return the guesture (which they did not). I am still open to full and complete cooperation with them, but I smell something and it's not in my daughter's diaper!!
It's because he just moved house to Cambridge. I didn't add that part of the conversation. Sorry.

I understand your trepidation and our next meeting will require a completely open view on each side of the table. If this does not happen or they want to make long term nice, nice with someone on other continent....then all bets are off. We need to have a consensus whether everyone is onboard with a plan.

So which plan do we want?
 
I do think that we should try to cooperate fully and try to facillitate that in any way reasonable. I will not speak in the next meeting though. I'll try to be available for support and/or transcribing.

Side note:: If they are not willing to share some basic information such as beakers per turn for planning purposes then I will remain in my opinion that they are dealing with another team and/or leaving options open for an off-shore partner.
 
I just want to comment on the trust thing. All the suggestions on showing trust seem so artificial to me. In my opinion an easy, natural way would be, after reaching a conclusion on who will research what, to simply gift them pottery, with the note that we expect the same from them when they reach a new tech. No more stupid trading. There would also be the added benefit of hopefully getting them more powerful sooner (we trusted them in this scenario, so that'd be desirable, remember :) )
 
Nikodemus said:
I just want to comment on the trust thing. All the suggestions on showing trust seem so artificial to me. In my opinion an easy, natural way would be, after reaching a conclusion on who will research what, to simply gift them pottery, with the note that we expect the same from them when they reach a new tech. No more stupid trading. There would also be the added benefit of hopefully getting them more powerful sooner (we trusted them in this scenario, so that'd be desirable, remember :) )
If they are willing to be exclusive partners I would 100% agree with Niko. We could easily gift pottery and when they finish the wheel they do the same. Seems pretty simple to me. As well cash. Need a little? Fine we can help you. To me, exclusivity is the key phrase in our discussions.
 
That sounds good Niko. We wanted them to have Pots anyway right?


Could we just ask them if they wanted to research different techs & then we/they gift them once learned? Also if we (or they) get a trade with the other continent for techs then gift those as well. If gold is involved then 50/50.
 
I agree with Whomp....exclusivity!!! We could be a one-woman man and they could be our ?????.
 
Tubby Rower said:
That sounds good Niko. We wanted them to have Pots anyway right?


Could we just ask them if they wanted to research different techs & then we/they gift them once learned? Also if we (or they) get a trade with the other continent for techs then gift those as well. If gold is involved then 50/50.
Be our..exactly. Mutual exclusivity on contacts as well. If we strike this deal our dealings overseas become very short term and specific. Then the discussion goes to a new level about who first? D'nuts or TNT?

I'd say first contact MIA makes (I'm assuming they will before us) gets benefits and maybe they get the alliance of this continent. It would make for a more expedicious conquest and a feeling of security with our mutually exclusive new ally on the other continent.

The alternative is just go after TNT after we meet D'nuts....just because. This is harder to communicate IMO.
 
Should someone more eloquent than I with words draft a proposal to the MIA populace? I can give them numbers but they didn't respond well to that ;) I'd like to get this agreement within the next 3 turns if not before we get the next turn. Mainly because I think that they have a boat in the water and am a little worried they have made contact or will very soon.
 
First, do we all agree to this type of plan?
If someone diagrees with this type of plan let's talk about it now.

If we are agreed I would recommend one of our great scribes put in down on paper (or is it post?).
 
I don't trust them... I said it in the MIA meeting post: I think they have another contact. But we have already come to know my 'thinking' ;) Well, call it a hunch then. Still, I will vote to roughly share beakers though the AA, which is effectively the same as the gifting option.
 
Whomps said:
B) Agree to stay at peace all the way through till one of us either builds the spaceship or wins by culture.
Oh, oh, oh, my culture plan back in place. Hurrah! :dance:

I like Niko's take on it. They were only a few turns shy of the wheel so their will to co-op will soon have to be demonstrated. A nice straight forward research plan suggested by us, they accept on the whole, we gift pottery and we go from there.
I'm as concerned about them lying about contacts as anyone else, well almost anyway. I sensed the foul play too, but I'm not all too sure it was 100% ill intent. Kenth had gotten a strict formula to follow and didn't know how to handle our openness. About us being that open on what techs we have, we knew we were but they didn't know that. I'm positive that Tubby provides us with info that they don't know how to get or use in a correct manner. If that be the case their unwillingness to believe us may be a display of ignorance.
I also like Whompsies idea of telling them where to find tusks we will not likely go after. That's the grace of the tribe strong and confident enough to be generous.
 
plus i'll requote myself, as a side note.

id term it Semi-Honest. we work on the assumption that they are going to XX us.
we keep our army strong enough to make them bleed bad, but not enough to goto the otherside of the water.
units of a more offensive nature. im thinking GSwords, horses, knights. a fast response team. lean and mean.
 
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