Diplomatic Victory in FFH?

[Skarn]

First of all, since this is my first post here, I want to thank Kael and the team for this awesome mod, which I've been playing almost non-stop for more than a year.

However, I always wondered why there was no option for diplomatic victory in FFH, even if the new victory conditions were pretty interesting. Was it disabled because of technical issues? Related to the overcouncil / undercouncil separation? Is there a modmod that restores the diplomatic victory?

 

[TC01]

However, I always wondered why there was no option for diplomatic victory in FFH, even if the new victory conditions were pretty interesting. Was it disabled because of technical issues? Related to the overcouncil / undercouncil separation? Is there a modmod that restores the diplomatic victory?

I think the main (technical) reason is because of the split... all civs in the game aren't on the councils. You can choose not to be (and some civs can't). Also, if you gave the Overcouncil the ability to elect the winner, all Undercouncil civs would be unable to vote or be elected, and vice versa.

I don't believe there are any modmods with a diplomatic victory, but I could be wrong- and even if there aren't any major up-to-date ones, there could be some obscure modmod on page 6 of the Modmods forum that's for 0.32 or some other out of date version.

 

[Valkrionn]

As far as I'm aware, there is no major modmod that allows a diplomatic victory, for precisely those reasons that TC01 mentioned.

I am not aware of any modmod that ever added it, either.

 

[SurahAhriman]

I think the main (technical) reason is because of the split... all civs in the game aren't on the councils. You can choose not to be (and some civs can't). Also, if you gave the Overcouncil the ability to elect the winner, all Undercouncil civs would be unable to vote or be elected, and vice versa.

I don't believe there are any modmods with a diplomatic victory, but I could be wrong- and even if there aren't any major up-to-date ones, there could be some obscure modmod on page 6 of the Modmods forum that's for 0.32 or some other out of date version.

Which civs can't enter one or the other?

 

[Jarrema]

Which civs can't enter one or the other?

Teah, it's my question too. I thought that it depends only on aligment

 

[Gaga1111]

I think you also need decption for joining the undercoucil and honor for the overcouncil so the Grigori and Ilians can't enter them (except if you play with random leaders.

 

[Skarn]

I think the main (technical) reason is because of the split... all civs in the game aren't on the councils. You can choose not to be (and some civs can't). Also, if you gave the Overcouncil the ability to elect the winner, all Undercouncil civs would be unable to vote or be elected, and vice versa.

I'm also interested in which civs can't join the councils (I thought Auric and Cassiel could still research Deception / Honor even if they could not adopt Empyrean / Esus, because of the Defensive Pacts issue). It would have been interesting to have a diplomatic victory where you had to convert other civs to "your" council, while fighting the influence of the other one, be it with word or swords.

My knowledge of python is way to limited (read: almost inexistant) to do it myself, but would it be possible to mod in the diplomatic victory if ALL civs in play were following the same council (basically recognizing you as the hope / mastermind of Erebus)?

 

[Fafnir13]

A diplomatic victory would make sense if it became available only once every surviving civ was on the council/undercouncil. Would promote the good vs evil battles people seem to like, as well as allow you to keep your friends around.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

What I think would be more interesting is if the Overcouncil could vote to "unite" under a single leader. This would automatically make the entire council enter either a permanent alliance with each other or do something like what is done with the Illians and the White hand in RiFE.

 

[Jarrema]

What I think would be more interesting is if the Overcouncil could vote to "unite" under a single leader. This would automatically make the entire council enter either a permanent alliance with each other or do something like what is done with the Illians and the White hand in RiFE.

It could be interesting, but only if really hard to obtain.
Maybe Undercouncil should get ability to "create strife" - causing diplomatic penalties between good leaders (and, in that way, prohibiting union between them) - or something other, that could be used as a prevention

 

[deanej]

I'm also interested in which civs can't join the councils (I thought Auric and Cassiel could still research Deception / Honor even if they could not adopt Empyrean / Esus, because of the Defensive Pacts issue). It would have been interesting to have a diplomatic victory where you had to convert other civs to "your" council, while fighting the influence of the other one, be it with word or swords.

My knowledge of python is way to limited (read: almost inexistant) to do it myself, but would it be possible to mod in the diplomatic victory if ALL civs in play were following the same council (basically recognizing you as the hope / mastermind of Erebus)?

They can't, but they can get those techs from the eyes and ears networks (not sure if that's a bug or not).

 

[DaveGold]

It seems strange in some games to force victory by warfare amongst good nations, especially when all the nations have defensive pacts enforced through the overcouncil. In these situations the overcouncil prevents the endgame resolving itself, which isn't a good thing.

I would like to see a way of drawing allies into a permanent alliance through end game technology. It could be through divine essence or omniscience perhaps, backed up by a wonder, with the result that you take control of the overcouncil and every ten turns (say) the smallest overcouncil member will permanently ally with you. As a balance the remaining overcouncil members will get a diplomatic penalty against you and could leave the overcouncil or declare war. This will force the endgame either way.

 

[BlakeTheDrake]

It's not a bad idea, but isn't there a lot of victory-options already? I always kinda' figured the Religious Victory was the stand-in for Diplomatic - just because everybody's nominally 'Good' doesn't mean they don't have their differences. If the game starts stalling in the end because everybody's good friends, just work to spread YOUR religious views to all your neighbors, while eliminating 'heresy' from within your own territory with the 'Purge' Ritual and Inquisitors.

Speaking of which, I'd heard that you could send Inquisitors into foreign cities to root out heretical ideas there as well - which is an obvious ingredient in an endgame Religious Victory - but last time I went for a Religious Victory, I tried it, and it didn't work - the 'Inquisition' option simply wasn't there if I was standing around a foreign city, even if it was a Vassal State. (It DID work in a city belonging to a Permanent Ally, though.) Did something change in a recent patch?

 

[WCH]

The way I remember it working is that they have to have adopted your religion as their state religion first. So what you do is put it in all their cities, bribe them to convert, and then use inquisition all over before they have a chance to change back.

 

[Breunor]

They can't, but they can get those techs from the eyes and ears networks (not sure if that's a bug or not).

I'm pretty sure that even though they get the techs, they really can't do anything with them - their only value is to trade them. I may be wrong here but I remember once this happened to me and I still couldn't adopt a religion.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[deanej]

Most of the disabled techs are useless except for trading, but you can join the overcouncil and undercouncil with the techs.

 

[Azhral]

I suppose it kinda makes sense that Agnostic civs can't join the councils. Considering how closely related they are to Empy and Esus respectively, Cassiel wouldn't want anything to do with them. And Auric just wants to freeze everybody.

 

[Skarn]

So I guess Cassiel and Auric would both have to be eliminated to guide Erebus under the banner of an enlightened leader. Sometimes sacrifices are necessary for the greater good...

Joke aside, seeing that an overcouncil player would need to rid Erebus of evil civs, and an undercouncil one to dispose of good civs, war seems inevitable for one who seeks to unite Erebus (besides, as Fafnir13 pointed, it fits the mood of the game pretty well). So the fact that Auric and Cassiel cannot join councils does not seems that big of a problem to me: they're just another "obstacle". The only problem I see is that the Grigori and the Illians could not achieve diplomatic victory, but since some civs are already denied certain victory conditions... Poor Auric, he cannot win an Altar or a religious victory, and we forbid him diplomacy as well. No wonder he wants to kill everybody after that.

 

[BlakeTheDrake]

Poor Auric, he cannot win an Altar or a religious victory, and we forbid him diplomacy as well. No wonder he wants to kill everybody after that.

Actually, it IS technically possible for Auric to win a Religious Victory, if very impractical. If you capture a religious-founding-city from another player, and then build your own shrine there (you can produce Great Prophets no problem, after all), you can actually 'win' with that religion. Of course, since you can't choose a state-religion and thus take advantage of Theocracy and Inquisition (not to mention 'Purge the Heathens' Ritual), getting that religion to 80% dominance is kinda' tricky. I don't remember if it's possible to produce Disciple-units if you capture a city with appropriate temples, but even if it's not, there's still clever ways to spread a chosen religion - simply get an appropriate Disciple by capturing one from another player, or by finding one in a dungeon, and then use the Black Mirror artifact to create illusions of him - thus spreading the religion without losing your one Disciple.

...so yeah, in PRACTICE, it's probably nigh-impossible to win a religious victory with Auric, but I don't think there's anything programming-wise preventing it. Could be a fun challenge for those who have mastered the game.