Dirty pirate hookers: 50, Righteous religious prudes: 50

[Arwon]

Bull.

Mate it may not be true in the United States with its criminalisation/persecution of sex workers and health system which is terrible in terms of easy access, but it's certainly true in Australia.

As sex workers we have a vast knowledge of sexual health and Sexually Transmissible Infections (STI’s) and we can be proud of our successful implementation of safe sex practices in our work.

Many Australian studies have shown Australian sex workers to have lower rates of STI’s than the general community. Scarlet Alliance is campaigning against mandatory testing for sex workers, download our briefing paper.

We play an important role in educating our clients on safer sex practices, including condom use. Our clients are usually not targetted for sexual health education and as such can be naive. We introduce education into our work practices and develop strong strategies to implement safe sex into our work places. As part of each booking (along with each phonecall for private workers)prophylactics are promoted, the use de-stigmatised and even turned into a fantasy for some. Although these skills are not highly acknowledged in society we can be proud of our strong safe sex culture.

Access to anonymous, free testing services has enabled sex workers to self regulate their sexual health and screening. However, there are states where mandatory testing is still in place, even though epidemiology shows this to not be necessary. Prevention Education delivered by peer educators has resulted in good sexual health, successful implementation of safer sex in the workplace and regular attendance for testing by sex workers.

We are also health consumers and such have the right to treatment and access to health services which do not discriminate against our work or personal choices. We have the right to access health services of our choice and should not have treatment, retraining or other services pushed on to us by service providers.

 

[BvBPL]

Fair enough re: social diseases. I was thinking of a more holistic examination of health.

 

[Souron]

Is there any actual evidence of this? Why would treating sex work as work make it easier for human trafficking to hide? Surely it's easier and more rife when there's criminalisation. Since that makes sex workers are more marginalised, exposed and vulnerable to police corruption, wary of interacting with the state, and unable to access ordinary legal protections against forced labour.

There are states in which prostitution is legal, and where sex trafficking thrives. In particular, Turkey has a problem with human trafficking in both it's legal and illegal prostitution industries. It is difficult to find evidence for the effect legal prostitution in issolation, because there are many factors that effect the amount of illegal trafficking in a country, besides the law. But regulation has not in many places proven to be effective at curbing trafficking.

So with that example on one side, what evidence is there that regulation can be effective?

 

[Souron]

Once you have been to Amsterdam, you realize how absurd the persecution of this generally victimless crime truly is.

"The Netherlands, Hungary, Nigeria, Romania, Bulgaria, Sierra Leone, and Poland are the top seven countries of origin for identified victims of forced prostitution in 2012" -- Trafficking in Persons Report 2013 (US Department of State)

It's not so victim-less as it looks.

 

[Synobun]

"The Netherlands, Hungary, Nigeria, Romania, Bulgaria, Sierra Leone, and Poland are the top seven countries of origin for identified victims of forced prostitution in 2012" -- Trafficking in Persons Report 2013 (US Department of State)

It's not so victim-less as it looks.

But drug and street walker capital!!!!!!!!!! Holland is the shining jewel of laid back living.

 

[Arwon]

There are states in which prostitution is legal, and where sex trafficking thrives. In particular, Turkey has a problem with human trafficking in both it's legal and illegal prostitution industries. It is difficult to find evidence for the effect legal prostitution in issolation, because there are many factors that effect the amount of illegal trafficking in a country, besides the law. But regulation has not in many places proven to be effective at curbing trafficking.

So with that example on one side, what evidence is there that regulation can be effective?

I'd like to see some data, this is a notoriously fraught area. Some figures and publications, for example, assume that all sex workers who travel to other countries to work are being forcibly trafficked. Which is obviously a nonsense.

Bear in mind I speak mostly from an Australian perspective and that's the research and publications I'm most familiar with. I can't speak to the effectiveness of forced labour laws in Turkey, for instance. (But I'm skeptical that banning prostitution there would help anything)

"The Netherlands, Hungary, Nigeria, Romania, Bulgaria, Sierra Leone, and Poland are the top seven countries of origin for identified victims of forced prostitution in 2012" -- Trafficking in Persons Report 2013 (US Department of State)

It's not so victim-less as it looks.

Why is the Netherlands in particular such a big source of forced prostitution?

 

[Zelig]

Bull.

Presumably the average sex worker gets more exercise than the average American.

 

[Formaldehyde]

"The Netherlands, Hungary, Nigeria, Romania, Bulgaria, Sierra Leone, and Poland are the top seven countries of origin for identified victims of forced prostitution in 2012" -- Trafficking in Persons Report 2013 (US Department of State)

It's not so victim-less as it looks.

Because some US government report you cannot even be bothered to provide a URL supposedly makes a sweeping generalization such as that?

UNHCR: 2012 Trafficking in Persons Report - Netherlands

There are some reports that foreign diplomats posted in the Netherlands subject their staff to domestic servitude.

The Dutch government continued to develop and pursue innovative and effective approaches to addressing human trafficking through law enforcement means. The Netherlands prohibits all forms of trafficking through criminal code Article 273, which prescribes maximum sentences ranging from eight to 18 years' imprisonment. These penalties are sufficiently stringent and commensurate with those prescribed for other serious crimes, such as rape. In 2010, the last year for which final trafficking statistics were available, the government prosecuted 135 suspected trafficking offenders, convicting 107. This is a significant increase from the 69 offenders convicted in 2009. The average sentence for convicted trafficking offenders was approximately 21 months, the same average for sentences imposed in 2009 and 2008. In accordance with the law, convicted offenders generally serve only two-thirds of their sentences, suggesting that many convicted trafficking offenders likely serve little more than a year in jail. Local police complain that low sentences for traffickers continued to result in the reappearance of the same offenders and thus the continued exploitation of trafficking victims within the regulated commercial sex sector. In February 2012, the government submitted a draft amendment to Parliament to amend the trafficking law to increase the maximum prison sentence from eight to 12 years' imprisonment for a single trafficking offense.

The government continued to increase its prosecution for forced labor in 2011; the National Prosecutor's office reported it registered 24 labor exploitation investigations in 2011, compared to 11 in 2010. Furthermore, it reported there were 10 labor trafficking cases since 2010, and the government obtained convictions for 12 persons. In April 2011, police, public prosecutors, and the local government launched a major operation to investigate human trafficking in The Hague's red-light district. The operation resulted in the identification of 54 potential trafficking victims and five ongoing criminal investigations. In December, police launched an investigation of suspected forced labor along the country's highways involving Bulgarian toilet cleaners. In October, police and the labor inspectorate began a joint large-scale investigation into allegations of forced labor involving Philippine seamen working in the country's inland shipping sector. In October, a court imposed a prison sentence of 2.5 years on an asparagus farmer for subjecting Polish, Romanian, and Portuguese workers to conditions of forced labor.

One local official noted judges consistently hand down more severe penalties for rape than for sex trafficking. There were no reported official cases of trafficking-related complicity in 2011; however, Amsterdam police believe that police assigned to anti-prostitution law enforcement efforts carry inherent temptations for corruption. The force therefore requires anti-trafficking officers in Amsterdam to pass three examinations in a specialized, 256-hour training course focused on working with trafficking victims and policing of the sex industry. Potential officers also must sign a code of conduct before they are eligible to work in this sensitive sector.

The Netherlands made appreciable progress in its efforts to proactively identify and assist trafficking victims. In 2011, Comensha, the government-funded national victim registration center and assistance coordinator, registered 1,222 potential trafficking victims, an increase from 993 victims registered in 2010 and a consistent increase from previous years. The majority of these 1,222 victims were identified by the police. The government continued to operate an extensive network of facilities providing a full range of trafficking-specialized services for children, women, and men; the government provided victims with legal, financial, and psychological assistance, shelter, medical care, social security benefits, and education financing. Victims in government shelters were not detained involuntarily. Comensha reported a shortage of accommodation for trafficking victims requiring shelter in 2011. Dutch authorities provided temporary residence permits to allow foreign trafficking victims to stay in the Netherlands during a three-month reflection period, during which victims received immediate care and services while they considered whether to assist law enforcement. The government provided permanent residence status to some victims. In 2011, the government granted 347 temporary residency permits to trafficking victims, approximately the same number it granted in 2010; 280 permits were granted in 2009.

During the year, the government increased its focus on horticultural and agricultural sectors in the country, resulting in an increase in men identified in forced labor sectors. Authorities identified 226 males, compared to 113 the previous year. Since January 2008, the government has provided unaccompanied children who are seeking asylum with intensive counseling in secure shelters that protect them from traffickers; the government extended this pilot until the end of 2014. The government encouraged victims to assist in the investigation and prosecution of traffickers although it lacked figures on the percentage of trafficking victims that filed charges against their traffickers during 2011. The National Prosecutor's Office reported that most victims did not file a complaint, fearing retaliation by traffickers or deportation by officials.

During the reporting period, the government continued to house trafficking victims in three specialized shelters based on the success of an initial pilot project to determine whether the practice increases victim cooperation; according to the government, 72 of the 112 victims participating in the project filed charges against their traffickers. The government also decided to extend a pilot project in which male trafficking victims are offered shelter until the end of 2012. There were no reports that any victims were punished for unlawful acts committed as a direct result of being trafficked. However, one NGO expressed concern that some unidentified trafficking victims may be mistakenly detained by law enforcement who may have missed signs of trafficking. To facilitate safe and voluntary repatriation, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has developed a system to evaluate victims' safety in five countries of return.

The government continued to pursue innovative approaches to prevent trafficking and address demand for commercial sex acts and forced labor during the reporting period. In 2011, the Foreign Ministry began informing foreign diplomats' domestic staff members, without their employers present, how to report cases of abuse. The government-funded victim protection agency launched a social media campaign to raise public awareness about other forms of trafficking outside of the sex industry. Furthermore, in August 2011, national police conducted an Internet chat session to inform young adults about the practice of local pimps seducing young women and then coercing them into sex trafficking and forced prostitution in the Netherlands. The human trafficking task force presented its 2011-2014 action plan in July 2011; one activity includes a field study analysis of seven human trafficking cases involving forced labor and sex trafficking identified as sources of best practices in criminal investigations. The Task Force also published a separate 2011-2014 National Action Plan to address trafficking that occurs within the country involving locally-resident pimps and Dutch girls in December 2011.

The government continued to demonstrate strong anti-trafficking leadership by transparently reporting and publishing self-critical, public reports on its anti-trafficking efforts. According to a survey published by police forces in May 2011, only nine out of 25 regional police forces complied with strict internal guidelines on combating human trafficking. The government-funded, autonomous Office of the Dutch National Rapporteur on Trafficking monitored the government's anti-trafficking efforts and, in January 2012, published an inventory of human trafficking cases prosecuted between 2006 and 2010. In 2011, the Social Affairs Ministry continued its awareness campaign informing citizens and certain target groups, including trade unions and work councils, about the existence of labor exploitation in the Netherlands. The military provided training on the prevention of trafficking and additional training on recognizing trafficking victims for troops being deployed abroad on missions as international peacekeepers.

So much of this "trafficking" also occurs in the US as well in the form of undocumented immigrants forced to work in agriculture where there are vastly more that 226 cases found in a given year.

And more victims are apparently ironically found in the Netherlands than most other countries due to proactive policing efforts to identify and help them.

 

[Souron]

"Turkey is a destination and transit country for women and children subjected to trafficking in persons, specifically forced prostitution, and for some women and men in forced labor. ... Officials identified an increased number of women subjected to forced prostitution from Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Kyrgyzstan in 2009. ... According to local experts, sex trafficking victims are generally forced into prostitution in illegal brothels or are “leased” by clients and kept in private residences or hotels. Although a much smaller problem, some internal trafficking involving Turkish citizens in both the legal and illegal prostitution sectors may occur."
-- Trafficking in Persons Report 2010

As for Australia:
"Australia is primarily a destination country for women subjected to forced prostitution and, to an increasing extent, for women and men subjected to forced labor. Child sex trafficking occurs with a small number of Australian citizens, primarily teenage girls, exploited within the country, as well as foreign victims. Some women from Thailand, Malaysia, the Philippines, the Republic of Korea, China, and to a lesser extent India, Vietnam, Eastern Europe, and Africa migrate to Australia voluntarily intending to work legally or illegally in a number of sectors, including the sex trade. Subsequent to their arrival, some of these women are coerced into prostitution in both legal and illegal brothels. These foreign women and girls are sometimes held in captivity, subjected to physical and sexual violence and intimidation, manipulated through illegal drugs, and obliged to pay off unexpected or inflated debts to their traffickers. There were reports of some victims of sex trafficking and some women who migrated to Australia for arranged marriages being subsequently subjected to domestic servitude."
--Trafficking in Persons Report 2013

I don't think the US Department of State is too loose in what it considers trafficking.

 

[Souron]

Because some US government report you cannot even be bothered to provide a URL makes a sweeping generalization such as that?

Apologies.

http://www.state.gov/j/tip/rls/tiprpt/2013/index.htm
http://www.state.gov/j/tip/rls/tiprpt/index.htm

It's an annual report on human trafficking around the world. "It is also the world’s most comprehensive resource of governmental anti-human trafficking efforts" "Worldwide, the report is used by international organizations, foreign governments, and nongovernmental organizations alike as a tool to examine where resources are most needed. " (Quotes from the second link)

The earlier quoted 2010 report can also be found there, as well as all years since 2001. I'm mostly quoting the first paragraph of the summary for each country.

So much of this "trafficking" also occurs in the US as well in the form of undocumented immigrants forced to work in agriculture where there are vastly more that 226 cases found in a given year.

There is indeed a problem with undocumented immigrants being trafficked, though not all undocumented immigrants are. The definition used is "the act of recruiting, harboring, transporting, providing, or obtaining a person for compelled labor or commercial sex acts through the use of force, fraud, or coercion.".

The Dutch government is to be commended for it's efforts of course, but that does not change the fact that sex trafficking is a problem in the Netherlands.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I think the UN report I posted trumps your supposed "world’s most comprehensive resource" by a country which largely ignores trafficking by comparison. I'm sure there are far more than 135 trafficking offenders and 1,222 potential trafficking victims in LA alone, much less the entire state.

 

[Arwon]

Yep, it does occur. And the very fact that sex work is tolerated, decriminalised or legal in Australia makes it easier to identify and provide support. Which is why groups like the Scarlet Alliance (the Australian Sex Workers Association) argue for the treatment of sex work as legitimate work:

If the Federal Government wants to improve the conditions of migrant sex workers, it needs to protect their rights as workers.

Introducing a visa to allow migrant sex workers to work in Australia legally for short periods of time would pull the carpet from under the trafficking nexus by allowing women to travel here independently to work. Greater access to generic working holiday visas for sex workers from our region would enable travel for work, without having to resort to a third party or "agent".

Treating migrant sex workers as a legitimate class of worker will get to the core of the trafficking issue. Decriminalising the sex industry in all states, and protecting workers from discrimination, would improve conditions in the long term.

Punitive approaches have been unsuccessful. The health, safety and human rights of the migrant sex workers in Australia must be prioritised.

The argument that banning sex work would stop trafficking or forced prostitution seems bizarre to me, especially when actual representative bodies in the industry argue the exact opposite, saying conditions are best and rights are most easily accessed when sex work is not criminalised and is instead treated like other forms of work. Even that State Department report, after its rather sensationalist and number-free opening, notes "in 2012, the government and NGOs identified 16 trafficking victims—including 11 subjected to sex trafficking and five subjected to labor trafficking—and referred them to the government’s victim support program, which provided access to accommodation, living expenses, legal advice, health services, and counseling"

It's hard to see how that can occur in a country which is spending state and police resources on the criminalisation of sex work.

 

[Archbob]

I don't really understand the need for pimps in this. Shouldn't female prostitution, if legalized, by run by the women without a middleman getting a cut? Can't they just sell themselves or run a brothel by themselves or something?

 

[Souron]

Yep, it does occur. And the very fact that sex work is tolerated, decriminalised or legal in Australia makes it easier to identify and provide support. Which is why groups like the Scarlet Alliance (the Australian Sex Workers Association) argue for the treatment of sex work as legitimate work:

The argument that banning sex work would stop trafficking or forced prostitution seems bizarre to me, especially when actual representative bodies in the industry argue the exact opposite, saying conditions are best and rights are most easily accessed when sex work is not criminalised and is instead treated like other forms of work. Even that State Department report, after its rather sensationalist and number-free opening, notes "in 2012, the government and NGOs identified 16 trafficking victims—including 11 subjected to sex trafficking and five subjected to labor trafficking—and referred them to the government’s victim support program, which provided access to accommodation, living expenses, legal advice, health services, and counseling"

It's hard to see how that can occur in a country which is spending state and police resources on the criminalisation of sex work.

The US has a program for granting trafficking victims special visas to be in the country legally, and there are general victim assistance programs. Though I grant you that US law could be improved to make it easier for victims to get legal protection and assistance. In particular the US has a problem providing police assistance to undocumented immigrants, so a migrant who would go to the police claiming to be a trafficking victim may fear being deported.

I support efforts to protect women who go into prostitution, but not legalizing the solicitation or purchase of sexual services, because that can create a bigger sex industry.

I don't really understand the need for pimps in this. Shouldn't female prostitution, if legalized, by run by the women without a middleman getting a cut? Can't they just sell themselves or run a brothel by themselves or something?

There would be some problem free prostitution, but there would also be more opportunity for pimps to operate. Forcing women into prostitution would be an even more lucrative business.

As a business model, having a pimp or brothel provide a selection of girls (or men) is more optimal than a single woman soliciting herself.

 

[Arwon]

Why would the "size" of the sex work industry be of concern in and of itself?

 

[Souron]

I think the UN report I posted trumps your supposed "world’s most comprehensive resource" by a country which largely ignores trafficking by comparison. I'm sure there are far more than 135 trafficking offenders and 1,222 potential trafficking victims in LA alone, much less the entire state.

From the top of that report:

Cite as United States Department of State, 2012 Trafficking in Persons Report - Netherlands, 19 June 2012, available at: http://www.refworld.org/docid/4fe30ca711.html [accessed 3 November 2013]
Disclaimer This is not a UNHCR publication. UNHCR is not responsible for, nor does it necessarily endorse, its content. Any views expressed are solely those of the author or publisher and do not necessarily reflect those of UNHCR, the United Nations or its Member States.

So it's just the 2012 version of the same report.

 

[Arwon]

I don't really understand the need for pimps in this. Shouldn't female prostitution, if legalized, by run by the women without a middleman getting a cut? Can't they just sell themselves or run a brothel by themselves or something?

In a free industry, different business models prevail based on different needs. Attempts to limit certain models (such as brothels) tend to have counterproductive consequences.

The reasons that sex workers choose a particular work environment include: flexibility of hours, greater personal control over choice of clients and money received, managerial and administrative requirements, types of services provided, skills required, security, fear of a criminal record, privacy issues and general work conditions offered. Likewise, clients access the sector that meets their particular needs such as speed of service, cost of service, level of privacy offered, likelihood of being seen by someone they know, type of services offered and the surrounds. Therefore, sex workers and clients may ignore laws that restrict their favoured choice of work environment regardless of the consequences and penalties. For example, in Queensland, where between 1992 and 1999 private work (defined as operating alone from your own premises) was the only lawful sector in which to work, did not have the desired effect of eradicating brothels. Since the law limited the mechanisms that private workers could adopt to protect themselves, such as employing support staff or working with another worker, it was perceived by many sex workers (unfamiliar with this work environment) to be too dangerous and it is these workers who continued to work illegally in brothels or in collaboration with other workers. A direct consequence of forcing Queensland sex workers to operate in one sector of the sex industry has been a significant rise in violence and other crimes against sex workers (SQWISI, 1996a & b). In fact, six sex workers have died as a direct consequence of Queensland laws. In addition, there was a substantial increase in street work and whilst the number of brothels was reduced they did not disappear altogether.

Generally, sex workers who have chosen private work as their preferred work option have been workers who have had experience in other sectors of the industry (e.g. brothel, escort) and have therefore acquired the skills to “go out on their own”. In a sense they have been through an apprenticeship in more supportive sectors of the industry. Without the choice or ability to do this, sex workers are left isolated and vulnerable to those who seek to cause them harm.

The consequences of limiting employment opportunities for sex workers are detrimental not only to sex workers but the broader community. Laws that prohibit work in specific sectors of the sex industry undermine occupational health and safety by forcing sex workers underground as sex workers need to clandestinely stay one step ahead of the law. This limits sex workers access to legal remedies to address crimes of violence, encourages unfair employment practices and conditions, allows unregulated and unenforceable occupational health measures, allows for local police control and local government control in determining how and where sex workers may operate promoting conditions conducive to police corruption, and provides the opportunity for criminal control of the industry.

Criminalising work options for sex workers is also a denial of basic human rights. Australia has an obligation under international conventions to guarantee its citizens the right to work and free choice of employment under favourable conditions (Universal Declaration on Human Rights).

They also note that pimps (as in "a person who forces a person to work and takes their earnings") aren't really a thing here, although they are common in some other parts of the world for street based sex workers. And also that:

In the Australian context, the belief that pimps control sex workers has allowed for laws to be introduced and maintained that infringe upon sex workers’ personal lives. Laws relating to “living off the earnings” have been argued as necessary to get at “pimps” but in reality are usually directed against partners and friends of sex workers. Sex workers, like any other Australian worker, have a right to spend their money how they choose. It is not acceptable to control sex workers’ associations and spending. Existing non-specific criminal penalties are adequate to address crimes relating to stand-over tactics and other forms of coercion. The use of these legal remedies are hindered by criminal laws that prevent sex workers from reporting crimes due to the fear of retribution for working illegally.

 

[Souron]

Why would the "size" of the sex work industry be of concern in and of itself?

Because some of that increase in size would surely include an increase in the number of illegal operations in the industry as well as legal ones. So that's a net increase in trafficking.

 

[Arwon]

Because some of that increase in size would surely include an increase in the number of illegal operations in the industry as well as legal ones. So that's a net increase in trafficking.

Why? A proposition like that requires evidence, given the dire collateral damage of criminalised sex work. Me I'm inclined to listen to what actual sex worker groups say is best for themselves.

 

[Souron]

Why? A proposition like that requires evidence, given the dire collateral damage of criminalised sex work. Me I'm inclined to listen to what actual sex worker groups say is best for themselves.

Because a bigger industry (with a larger demand) is more lucrative to operate in. It's economics 101. You would need some counteracting effect that would make it proportionally harder to operate an illegal prostitution ring, and I am skeptical of the ability of the law to ensure such an effect.