Discussing some of the new leaders

[futurehermit]

Just thought I'd put out some thoughts about some of the new leaders. I must say I'm excited. Some of them look amazing

For example...

Dutch
Leader: Willem van Oranje - Creative, Financial
Starting Techs: Fishing, Agriculture
Unique Unit: East Indiaman (Galleon), +2 strength and one extra cargo space, can also explore rival territory.
Unique Building: Dike (Levee), grants +1 production from all water tiles.

Man, Dutch look SWEET Creative Financial is a nice combo and has some synergy now with cheap libraries. Basic cottage spam. But look what else they have! Fishing or ag means your early food needs are covered whether you start inland or on the coast (rox!). The extra space on the galleon is amazing Now domination wins will be much less painful on continents maps And their UB WOW!!! That is pretty freakin' uber imo! I've always thought that non-financial water tiles kinda blow but no longer!!!

Sumerian
Leader: Gilgamesh - Creative, Protective
Starting Techs: Wheel, Agriculture
Unique Unit: Vulture (Axeman), has +1 strength but suffers a 25% reduction against melee units.
Unique Building: Ziggurat (Courthouse), 20 hammers cheaper than the courthouse, only four are required to build the Forbidden Palace.

OMG!!! Improved axes (vs archers) AND cheaper courthouses/FP??? Plus creative for ideal 1st city placement to claim copper. Plus starting with ag-wheel which is my personal favourite. This guy's gonna rock.

American: Lincoln - Charismatic, Philosophical

WOOT! I've been wanting this combo since warlords first came out!!! This is gonna be sooooooo sweet

Celtic: Boudica - Aggressive, Charismatic

My personal vote for the most overpowered leader. Agg + Char??? Imo that's at least as powerful as ind-phil and should be off-limits My first game is gonna be with Boudica for sure.

Greek: Pericles - Creative, Philosophical

Nice!!! Another combo I've been waiting for forever Excellent synergy with cheap libraries!!! Greek's starting techs and uu leave something to be desired, but they have a nice ub.

Persia: Darius I - Financial, Organized

Very nice indeed!!! Standard immortal rush to take out 1-2 civs and then cottage/courthouse up and watch yourself zoooom to the front of the pack. Fun times ahead, fun times

Those are the leaders that I'm personally looking forward to. I can't wait!!!

Honourable mentions:

Babylonian
Leader: Hammurabi - Aggressive, Organized
Starting Techs: Wheel, Agriculture
Unique Unit: Bowman (Archer), grants an additional +50% vs melee units.
Unique Building: Garden (Colosseum), grants an additional health.

Agg-Or is a nice combo (axe rush then courthouse to stabilize econ) plus ag-wheel is my favourite starting combo. The UU looks kinda "meh" as does the UB (it's ok) so I'm not super thrilled. I'll definitely look forward to playing them though.

Mayan
Leader: Pacal II - Expansive, Financial
Starting Techs: Mysticism, Mining
Unique Unit: Holkan (Spearman), immune to First Strike and can be built without copper or iron.
Unique Building: Ball Court (Colosseum), grants +2 happiness.

Interesting spear rush although it's in conflict with starting with mysticism and thus going for early religion. Could be possible I guess. The UB looks ok. I like the synergy with the traits quite a lot, so that will draw me to playing Mayans at times.

New leaders I'm *not* looking forward to:

Holy Roman Empire
Leader: Charlemagne - Imperialistic, Protective
Starting Techs: Mysticism, Hunting
Unique Unit: Landsknecht (Pikeman), in addition to the existing mounted bonus, it comes with +100% vs. melee units.
Unique Building: Rathaus (Courthouse), lowers maintenance by an additional 25%, only four are needed to build the Forbidden Palace.

Unless imperialist and protective are seriously beefed, this combo is gonna blow. Mysticism + hunting = poor starting techs too imo. The UU looks good, quite good, especially since it comes with trebs. The UB also looks good. But overall this guy just looks underwhelming.

Ethiopian
Leader: Zara Yaqob - Creative, Organized
Starting Techs: Hunting, Mining
Unique Unit: Oromo Warrior (Musketman), has first-level First Strike and is also immune to First Strikes, begins with Drill I and II promotions.
Unique Building: Stele (Monument), grants an additional +25% culture.

One word: Boring. Don't see anything really exciting here.

Khmer
Leader: Suryavarman - Creative, Expansive
Starting Techs: Hunting, Mining
Unique Unit: Ballista Elephant (War Elephant), when attacking units in stacks outside of city walls, elephants will automatically target mounted units first.
Unique Building: Baray (Aqueduct), grants an additional food.

The UU and UB look kind of intriguing but on the whole kinda underwhelming again.

Native American
Leader: Sitting Bull - Philosophical, Protective
Starting Techs: Fishing, Agriculture
Unique Unit: Dog Soldier (Axeman), has -1 strength but an additional +50% vs. melee units. Also requires no resources to build.
Unique Building: Totem Pole (Monument), all new archery units get +3 experience.

The axe-nerf hurts imo although the no resources thing is definitely handy. The UB looks so-so and will be deadly in the hands of the AI. Sitting Bull will definitely be my buddy when I see him, but playing as him doesn't seem appealing to me.



I didn't cover everybody, just the ones that stood out to me

 

[TheLastOne36]

Boudica is teh hotty out of them all so i'm making my first game with someone and i'm making her my Allie to get alotta "nice" and "sexy" diplomacy and trading...

 

[Bongo-Bongo]

I'm very intruiged by Ethiopia. Zara Yaqob has a top trait combo. Creative will help with early land grabbing, whilst organized will help making a larger empire more feasible. Zara also has a very nice set of starting techs. Hunting getting scouts straight off and allowing exploration, and Mining, well Bronze Working can be researched from the off, so even if it doesn't get discovered in your borders, you will at least know where it lies. The UB also runs nicely with the creative trait, making for even greater land grabbing oppurtunities. As for the UU, I think this could possibly be one of the best in the games, especially now that the use of Musketman has been increased. Those first strikers are going to hurt.

 

[futurehermit]

I'm very intruiged by Ethiopia. Zara Yaqob has a top trait combo. Creative will help with early land grabbing, whilst organized will help making a larger empire more feasible. Zara also has a very nice set of starting techs. Hunting getting scouts straight off and allowing exploration, and Mining, well Bronze Working can be researched from the off, so even if it doesn't get discovered in your borders, you will at least know where it lies. The UB also runs nicely with the creative trait, making for even greater land grabbing oppurtunities. As for the UU, I think this could possibly be one of the best in the games, especially now that the use of Musketman has been increased. Those first strikers are going to hurt.

Well, it's hard to take your post seroiusly

I like creative and organized, but I like them as support traits. Together they just seem kinda underwhelming. I see some synergy there that you're talking about: scouts to reveal terrain, creative to claim it, organized to finance it, and mining to allow early bw to see if you have copper. That is some handy synergy I'll give you that. The uu is "ok" especially since it is draftable (bonus!!!). The ub though is pretty lame imo. The perk of creative is not HAVING TO research mysticism and put time into monuments. I would only build them if planning cultural from the beginning (e.g., if isolated).

 

[IbnKhaldun]

Does anyone think a Babylonian Bowmen rush is feasible? It is too bad they don't start with hunting but I think it could be done with overwhelming numbers!

 

[Bongo-Bongo]

The ub though is pretty lame imo. The perk of creative is not HAVING TO research mysticism and put time into monuments. I would only build them if planning cultural from the beginning (e.g., if isolated).

I'll admit to being unsure about Ethiopias UB. Like you said, the main perk of creative is not having to prioritising into researching Mysticism and building Monuments, but looking at it from a builders point of view, particularly as somebody who enjoys cultural victories, the 25% culture could prove very helpful, especially when trying to get a cities culture up and running. I just can't decide whether it is that great or not. As they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

 

[bonafide11]

The three Civs I'm looking most forward to playing: Ethiopia, Byzantine, and the Holy Roman EMpire.

Ethiopia's trait combination is the most powerful in the game in my opinion, and his unit will be quite fun. The building isn't great, but it'll help claim even more early land with the boost to early culture. How can you honestly say that Creative/Organized are a weak trait combo?! It's the same trait combo that made Augustus overpowered so they had to nerf him! Ethiopia has the same potential as Augustus had, though they lack the praetorians. Either way, they have 6 cheap buildings, including both libraries and courthouses!

Byzantine: Spiritual/Imperialist! Yes, I've always wanted this combination! Finally, an empire that allows us to relive the Crusades! Isabella can already somewhat do this, but I'd prefer an Imperialist leader rather than Expansive to make some bad ass knights. Saladin is also decent for it, but Protective doesn't help his Camel Archers much, and I want someone who is a better aggressor. Spiritual/Imperialist is perfect, and the 12 strength knights will conquer any of my religious enemies! I have to play with them the first game...

Charlemagne and the Holy Roman Empire! Imperialist gives all units a bonus with the early great generals in your Heroic Epic city, so your units out of this city will come out with more experience. Then, your archers and gunpowder units come out with Drill I and City Garrison I. This makes it easy for your archers to have enough experience to get Drill IV, which then can be upgraded to some badass Riflemen, etc. Oh, not to mention the MOST POWERFUL building and unit in the Expansion Pack! An additional -25% maintence cost for courthouses?!? That basically provides the HRE with another trait! It almost makes them Organized! Then their unit will dominate the medieval age! Pikemen who can destroy macemen? That'll be sick! Yes, they'll lose to Crossbowmen, but I doubt the AI will be smart enough yet to build enough of them. Build the Landscnects and trebuchets and conquer everyone...

 

[futurehermit]

Does anyone think a Babylonian Bowmen rush is feasible? It is too bad they don't start with hunting but I think it could be done with overwhelming numbers!

I doubt it. They'll be good in multiplayer and in the hands of the ai, but attacking the ai with them when the ai builds primariliy archers and horse-based units? unlikely.

I really feel that if imperialistic and protective don't get beefed then I won't be drawn to them.

Cre/Org is a fine combo although I just feel it is somewhat lackluster. When combined with an extraordinarily powerful and early UU (Praets) then, yes, it is great. Engineering is a bit later than I would want for this combo though.

 

[Tee Kay]

Gilgamesh, William, Darius and Boadica's are powerhouses. Others are mediocre but none of them are particularly weak imho

 

[NYHunter]

Each leader is strong and weak in their own ways, for different playing styles. Some of them are obvious and some of them require more specialized styles to fully understand their greatness.

 

[futurehermit]

But some leaders are simply stronger than others in most circumstances. The game is pretty balanced, but it is not completely balanced.

 

[Thedrin]

FutureHermit:
I really feel that if imperialistic and protective don't get beefed then I won't be drawn to them.

Gunpowder units can now promote down the drill line. That's an improvement for protective since it means the free drill I isn't a near-pointless relic - it can be used to more quickly obtain the previously unobtainable (through promoting) drill IV.

 

[Zoolooman]

Even without Praetorians, Cre/Org is a really powerful set of early warmongering traits, and the Ethiopian UU will at least extend the Civ's effective power into the midgame.

I still think HRE is a strong choice. People complain and say that the Landsknecht won't be good for taking down Longbowmen, but I say that they're missing the point. Landsknecht are 10 hammers cheaper than Macemen, they're good against nearly everything, and they can be stacked up with Trebuchets for conquering cities.

 

[bonafide11]

Gunpowder units can not promote down the drill line. That's an improvement for protective since it means the free drill I isn't a near-pointless relic - it can be used to more quickly obtain the previously unobtainable (through promoting) drill IV.

Is there any word on if Drill II-IV will be available to gunpowder units in BTS? Would be a nice addition to Protective...

 

[Thedrin]

There was a typo in that post which completely altered its meaning. It should have read that 'gunpowder units can now promote down the drill line'.

 

[Kietharr]

Darius will be pretty damn uber. He has fin/org, washington's old extremely powerful traits, one of the best UUs around (while what held washington back was a useless UU) and a pretty good UB. Solid leader for the "kill everyone I see then cottege up" tactic, especially with the powerful early UU.

 

[NYHunter]

That was exactly my point. Some leaders are obviously. But some of the ones that look weak can be very great for very specialized strategies.

But some leaders are simply stronger than others in most circumstances.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Darius will be pretty damn uber. He has fin/org, washington's old extremely powerful traits, one of the best UUs around (while what held washington back was a useless UU) and a pretty good UB. Solid leader for the "kill everyone I see then cottege up" tactic, especially with the powerful early UU.

Yeah, I bet you'd see him a lot in MP, considering they start with Agriculture and Hunting, they have the cheapest AH in the game, and AH is cheaper than BW to begin with. Wheel is kinda pricey, but not a huge drawback. Then you get Mining , claim horses(Agri and AH got the food covered), and start spamming. Immortals are cheaper than Spears to boot. Ready axes in the interim because your victim is probably spamming spears like mad to stay alive, and clean up the crippled, pillaged, spear-heavy mess you've made. Then Fin/Org kicks in. Sounds nice. Cyrus is the better rusher, but Darius fixes the "Well, all I have to play peace with is +1 " quandary Persia used to have....

 

[bonafide11]

There was a typo in that post which completely altered its meaning. It should have read that 'gunpowder units can now promote down the drill line'.

I'm glad to hear this, but I haven't seen it anywhere else. Do you mind sharing where you saw that gunpowder units can now promote down the drill line?

 

[Phoenix1595]

That was exactly my point. Some leaders are obviously. But some of the ones that look weak can be very great for very specialized strategies.

NYHunter is right. There are always standouts in this game, but because there are so many paths to victory, players are able to adapt new techniques and strategies with each new civ played. Civ4 has come along way since the original Civ, when there wasn't much difference between, say, the Mongols and the Indians. Now it is like night and day.

Plus, not everyone is strictly a warmonger or a cultural purists-- there are many shades under the rainbow. I think the genius behind the combinations of various traits, UUs, UBs, and starting techs is that every civ must be played differently to succeed. One man's garbage civ is another's wunderkind. Of course, we all know that even after his makeover, Caesar Augustus is still the best.