Unrestricted Leaders - synergies? (2023 edition)

[Fool's Gold]

(Because apparently this thread comes up every year or so, judging from previous threads...)

Thought exercise: Let's say you have to go through every civ in the unmodded BTS game. (Which means that if you've never seen a Navy SEAL / Mall in your life because your American games never got that far, too bad, you're stuck with them anyway.) Which leader / trait combination lets you squeeze the most use out of your starting techs, UU & UB (half-priced buildings count), regardless of how good and bad they may actually be? And what tech path / time period / civics / victory condition / map type / [insert condition here] would provide the best conditions for you to use them?

Just thinking about this because:

• Some civs already start heavily synergised (e.g. Zulu: Impi + Ikhanda, starting with Agriculture + Hunting, and having AGG + EXP heavily incentivises a Mining - Bronze Working - Wheel - Pottery start and heavy whipping);
• Some leader / civ combinations look like they were better off switched (e.g. Gilgamesh of Babylon with CRE Gardens + PRO Bowmen vs Hammurabi of Sumeria with AGG Vultures + ORG Ziggurats);
• Others are outright redundant (Hatshepsut's and Zara Yaqob's CRE disincentivises building Obelisks / Steles);
• And for the UUs / UBs, some synergies are obvious (Mongols start with Hunting and The Wheel and aim straight for Animal Husbandry - Horseback Riding - Archery for Keshiks and Gers, so going for all-out war with Cyrus's IMP / CHA is an obvious consideration, even if it might not be sustainable) while others are not so clear-cut (Persia's Immortals and Apothecaries are from completely different eras - what traits would benefit both and what strategy are you aiming for?)

Note: I know flexibility is usually valued over explicit synergy, and I'm aware that some UUs / UBs are just plain bad and you shouldn't be building them under normal circumstances, but let's say you were trying to make use of them regardless.

 

[Slashninja1467]

Pacal of Inca is widely recognized as the holy grail of unrestricted.

Half price terraces, anti barb defense with quechas (cheese on non-deity), top tier trait combo with discounted workers paired with financial.

 

[AcaMetis]

Obelisks are for generating super early Great Prophets to get a Shrine up and running (though most players will leave founding religions to the AI, making it much less useful to them), and Steles are to maintain a cultural edge against another CRE leader, someone pushing religion or a leader with an early UB that helps with culture (I.E. Saladin's Madrassa) or lategame cultural victories that don't go Astronomy for overseas trade routes.

My favorite unrestricted leader combination, however completely pointless it is even if you were playing Always War (hell, especially if you're playing Always War considering how badly that strains and restricts your economy), is Churchill of the Native Americans. CHA/PRO/Totem Pole archers, anyone .

 

[Fool's Gold]

Obelisks are for generating super early Great Prophets to get a Shrine up and running (though most players will leave founding religions to the AI, making it much less useful to them), and Steles are to maintain a cultural edge against another CRE leader, someone pushing religion or a leader with an early UB that helps with culture (I.E. Saladin's Madrassa) or lategame cultural victories that don't go Astronomy for overseas trade routes.

Sure, this I *think* I get - so I guess my question is, what leaders would be able to make use of these strategies? If you're thinking of GP spam for Obelisks and easy XP on War Chariots, then maybe Lincoln (PHI / CHA)? And for Steles, maybe it depends on what your plan is:

• If aiming to exert early border pressure, maybe Catherine (IMP / CRE) with an aim to expand hard / REX early, grab all the good land, and backfill while aiming for Nationalism and maybe Communism in order to offset empire size penalties, and let you draft Oromo Warriors?
• If Cultural Victory without Astronomy (i.e. not necessarily late-game but most likely Pangaea), maybe Brennus (SPI / CHA) for cheap Temples and getting some early additional benefit from your Monument-replacing UB, and then aiming towards stopping at Liberalism while being able to switch civics at will for defence (see previous point about drafting Oromo Warriors)?

Half price terraces, anti barb defense with quechas (cheese on non-deity), top tier trait combo with discounted workers paired with financial.

This setup feels pretty obvious: Agriculture / Fishing - Bronze Working - The Wheel - Pottery (for Granary and Cottages), and you can play however you want from there. I guess Sury (EXP / CRE) would be an inferior option, but the thought of crazy early between Terraces and CRE amuses me too much even if it's redundant.

 

[AcaMetis]

Hard to say because it's heavily, heavily map dependant. You might be in a situation where, say, you have a lot of land you can backfill and your nearest neighbour is a zealot who will 100% get their own religion and either be BFFs if you adopt their religion or kill you if you try to run your own, in which case Obelisks/War Chariots or not you'd probably want traits like IND, FIN or ORG to fund building/growing a larger empire and leave the religion founding/spreading to your neighbour.

 

[civac]

AGG Praetorians are another obvious combo. With half-price barracks you can get shock off the shelves so they beat up axes.

 

[ArchGhost]

Willem of China is the ultimate "gimme" of a leader/tech combo on any land-based map. The best starting tech combo + free border pops/cheap libraries + FIN to do whatever you want with it, whether it's cottaging anything or working coast or utilizing a special tile earlier (cottage riverside silk, etc). No synergy on the uniques though.

Zara of Sumeria reduces both the super early Ziggurat costs and Libraries too (can build both for the normal price of either one), while keeping CRE for border help and doubling down on expense saving with ORG. Very rapid early economy and a ton of fun if you also have Copper, as the Vulture is dope too.

Hammi of Sumeria is another more UU focused gambit at using Sumeria's nice Uniques to their fullest.

Hammurabi or Ragnar of Zulu just to make use of Ikhanda on a better economic leader.

Shaka of Maya is one I play sometimes just because I really like the guaranteed Holkan for early chokes, AGG powers it up (free combat1, immunity to first strikes, and an easy 2nd Barracks promo? Those Holkans are going to be ENTRENCHED, buddy) and EXP speeds up your start combined with Mining (faster workers + early BW) as well as any follow up axe rush (earlier workers, cheaper Granaries, open path to BW) using Shaka's tried and true AGG/EXP for early whip power. This also trades away Shaka's Hunting poison pill for Myst, which allows for border pops earlier and is easily teched when you want Holkans. I think it's an overall improvement for Shaka, even though I am a fan of the Zulu's Ikhandas. Any other other AGG leader could be a substitute here but I like Shaka's EXP the most out of the options for this "early aggressiveness" stance.


I've played a few more intentionally and sometime just gone random. Picking on purpose tends to be more about actually creating trait synergies with the uniques, which tends to create the trend that leader with better uniques benefit more from Unrestricted Leaders.

This is also counter-intuitive to my normal stance that starting techs are most important and uniques are least important, so it makes picking a leader based on improving the uniques and just dealing with the techs that come along as sub-optimal overall.

 

[lymond]

Willem of China is the ultimate "gimme" of a leader/tech combo on any land-based map. The best starting tech combo + free border pops/cheap libraries + FIN to do whatever you want with it, whether it's cottaging anything or working coast or utilizing a special tile earlier (cottage riverside silk, etc). No synergy on the uniques though.

Cheap Pavilions fwiw

 

[R82]

In unmodded unrestricted leaders games, I'm currently partial towards Huayna Capac of Maya. Cheap Mints, and both IND and a great early defense unit.

 

[Lennier]

In unmodded unrestricted leaders games, I'm currently partial towards Huayna Capac of Maya. Cheap Mints, and both IND and a great early defense unit.

The Mint is the Mali UB; the Maya’s UB is the Ball Court, so no synergy there.

 

[R82]

The Mint is the Mali UB; the Maya’s UB is the Ball Court, so no synergy there.

Yeah, sorry, I misstyped. I meant to write Mali.

 

[Fool's Gold]

I've played a few more intentionally and sometime just gone random. Picking on purpose tends to be more about actually creating trait synergies with the uniques, which tends to create the trend that leader with better uniques benefit more from Unrestricted Leaders.

This is also counter-intuitive to my normal stance that starting techs are most important and uniques are least important, so it makes picking a leader based on improving the uniques and just dealing with the techs that come along as sub-optimal overall.

Hard to say because it's heavily, heavily map dependant. You might be in a situation where, say, you have a lot of land you can backfill and your nearest neighbour is a zealot who will 100% get their own religion and either be BFFs if you adopt their religion or kill you if you try to run your own, in which case Obelisks/War Chariots or not you'd probably want traits like IND, FIN or ORG to fund building/growing a larger empire and leave the religion founding/spreading to your neighbour.

Right. I defer to you all when it comes to optimal play, which is why I phrased the original post the way I did:

Which leader / trait combination lets you squeeze the most use out of your starting techs, UU & UB (half-priced buildings count), regardless of how good and bad they may actually be? And what tech path / time period / civics / victory condition / map type / [insert condition here] would provide the best conditions for you to use them?

...Of course, the trouble I have with my own topic is that when it comes to UUs, I keep gravitating towards "Melee = AGG, Ranged = PRO, Mounted = CHA, and what's Gunpowder?", even if AGG and PRO are considered pretty naff in actual play.

So yeah, these two examples would probably be overkill (or also redundant), but Qin of Mali is tempting because of PRO Skirmishers and half-priced IND Mints, and you definitely want to prioritise Metal Casting; and as for AGG Praetorians... maybe Alexander of Rome (AGG / PHI) where you aim for Iron Working and then push through Wheel - Pottery - Writing - Alphabet - Currency while sustaining your empire's upkeep through GMs from Forums (unfortunately there's no half-price trait discount on Markets to make them tempting, so you're only really whipping them when your cities become too big and you're consolidating I guess).

 

[ArchGhost]

Cheap Pavilions fwiw

Oh well, yeah. I just couldn't remember when I've ever intentionally built a theater outside of late-game slider for war-weariness mitigation, let alone when playing as China too. It also gets overshadowed by the Library part of CRE, like SPI with temples.

Right. I defer to you all when it comes to optimal play, which is why I phrased the original post the way I did:

...Of course, the trouble I have with my own topic is that when it comes to UUs, I keep gravitating towards "Melee = AGG, Ranged = PRO, Mounted = CHA, and what's Gunpowder?", even if AGG and PRO are considered pretty naff in actual play.

So yeah, these two examples would probably be overkill (or also redundant), but Qin of Mali is tempting because of PRO Skirmishers and half-priced IND Mints, and you definitely want to prioritise Metal Casting; and as for AGG Praetorians... maybe Alexander of Rome (AGG / PHI) where you aim for Iron Working and then push through Wheel - Pottery - Writing - Alphabet - Currency while sustaining your empire's upkeep through GMs from Forums (unfortunately there's no half-price trait discount on Markets to make them tempting, so you're only really whipping them when your cities become too big and you're consolidating I guess).

Not sure why it snipped out the quoted portions, but

Yes, I was more trying to point out that regardless of Uniques being considered the less optimal thing to focus on, Unrestricted Leaders makes it less painful to do so. Not that it was a worse way to use that option than trying for the best overall combo.

That's also just an opinion. Many consider the Quecha to be the reason HC is absolutely busted, and that's without even synergizing it at all! So maybe Uniques are more weighty to others.


On the topic of "which trait-which unit type" AGG can benefit any unit as it makes Barracks completely trivial at the cost of an Archer -- you can emplace a Barracks + Stable for less hammers than a single Library for horse archers, for instance. Getting to a third promo is where mounted units really start to shine brightly. Which makes looking at Mongolia/Carthage a little different when picking leaders if you want to consider their Uniques. I'd definitely be looking at Boudica or Shaka a little more favorably then, but only for early war focus and not overall package.

 

[Fool's Gold]

On the topic of "which trait-which unit type" AGG can benefit any unit as it makes Barracks completely trivial at the cost of an Archer -- you can emplace a Barracks + Stable for less hammers than a single Library for horse archers, for instance. Getting to a third promo is where mounted units really start to shine brightly. Which makes looking at Mongolia/Carthage a little different when picking leaders if you want to consider their Uniques. I'd definitely be looking at Boudica or Shaka a little more favorably then, but only for early war focus and not overall package.

I've wondered about that bit myself - I've seen posts saying that AGG does very little for the Mongolians since their UU is Mounted and the AGG bonus only applies to Melee, but half-priced Barracks still help with pushing Keshiks past the Level 3 border. (Or is it more that the extra XP from the Ger doesn't do much if you're looking for promotions out of the gate?) Which is why I'm partial to Cyrus of the Mongols since you can just skip the Barracks entirely if that's your breakpoint.

Which leads into the next question... Why the third promo in particular? Mobility? If so, then Mongolia and Carthage's built-in workarounds on their UUs are pretty sweet.

 

[SittinDown]

Why the third promo in particular? Mobility?

I usually go combat I, II, III. I don't enjoy flanking that much... HA's are already immune to first strikes, and the extra withdraw isn't that good... and mobility is pointless with Keshiks. I think the idea is just that combat III really tips the scales on defeating archers without taking losses or stopping to heal.

Or alternatively, using Combat I, II, and Shock if the rival has metals.
but CHA does seem like it would go well with a Keshik rush. Boudica is Agg / Cha. Might be fun.

Keshiks are fun for big-map low-difficulty conquest romps.

 

[ArchGhost]

Which leads into the next question... Why the third promo in particular? Mobility? If so, then Mongolia and Carthage's built-in workarounds on their UUs are pretty sweet.

I don't have hard math for this bit, it's a feel kinda thing... but whether it's HAs, Cuirs, or Cavs, when they start hitting 3 promos they tend to completely bowl over their greatest equivalent resistance in the same era. Tanks are sorta along the same line but they do just fine with CR2 (as it's so powerful) only --which is somewhat equivalent, as they have a hard time getting 2 upgrades right out of the gate without help.

Usually this is done by stacking Combat II with counter promo. C2+Shock HAs do much better against Spears, C2+Shock Cuirs do much better against against Pikes, and C2+Pinch Cavs can actually start to punch through rifles in AI cities after a loss or two. There is actually a preview of this in the Spanish Conquistador, that thing fears nothing it goes up against until they get Cavs or Rifles, thanks to its native counter promo acting as a more powerful version of Shock. But Combat III units are also much better at winning their fights of "decent" odds and staying alive, I've noticed these veterans tend to accumulate over time in games where I run massive amounts of units like Earth18 (sometimes 250+ mounted units). This I can largely attribute to the fact that Combat Promos are "worth" more on higher base power units like Cuirs and also as I recently found out, Combat promos always modify your unit's bp if it is the one attacking. Mounted units are pretty junk at defending, so...

It also gives you the option to toss in some Flanking 2 + Combat 1 guys to soften top defenders, and they do a much better job than just Flanking 2 alone. Throw like 4 of these into a city first and the defensive integrity of the rest will likely crumble.

 

[drewisfat]

Keshiks are actually NOT FS immune, which is why I think it makes sense to attack later with them and invest in Gers for F-II.
In an HA rush AGG might mean more chariots (though even that complicates a 2 pop rax -> chariot whip).
Between the later timing of a keshik rush and the movement speed difference, I don't care for chariots. That 25 hammer savings is coming at a completely inconsequential time for me.
Then there's AGG + hunting anti-synergy. AGG + CRE being barb overkill. I think the Mongols would be better served by literally any other trait.

 

[R82]

Belated thought I just had on the topic of this thread: How about switching Hannibal and Pacal? As leader of the Maya, Hannibal would combine his Chm added happiness with the happiness from the Ball Court for super happiness. And as leader of Carthage, Pacal would get reasonably cheap Cothons.

 

[ArchGhost]

Cool ideas, and I don't just want to poke holes in it. But the issue comes from the techs attached to the UBs, the timing and the usefulness.

Ball Courts are tied to Construction -- which means unless you're going for Catapults or Elepulting, you aren't likely to get the tech early enough to need the happiness. As a resource to be managed, happiness tends to be very important to focus on early but becomes easier and easier to get the later the game goes. In late game, happiness is largely only an issue due to Emancipation or extended wars, and you'd still probably never need a Coliseum thanks to the slider. I will say this though: Ball Courts are friggen awesome by themselves due to the large chunk of inherent happiness they give, and sometimes I will whip them into cities even as late as Cuir/Cav wars for a net gain on happiness during whipfests. That said, I don't think that a CHA leader is needed to feel that impact though it would double down on it. The optimization isn't as impactful as simply the Ball Court itself.

The Cothons + EXP leader thing I've done a few times and the result is kinda inconclusive. Compass is a cheapish tech needed for the Lib bulb path or in isolation going for Optics (it's also a good trade-bait tech for getting gold), and EXP makes Cothons dirt cheap, and Pacal is arguably the best EXP leader anyway, so it's more likely to come up I think. I just felt like it was less impactful unless playing isolation.

 

[Fool's Gold]

Maybe there's a world where you don't start near horses, copper, or ivory (or weren't incentivised to get HBR), and Kublai Khan of the Mayans is forced to break out with AGG Holkans, catapults, and half-priced CRE Ball Courts to sustain further whipping.

I'm not saying it's a world I'd like to play through, but you never know...