Discussion about Babylon

[Golkian]

All my points only apply to single player:
As mentioned here https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/babylon-eureka-guide-on-some-military-units.664972/ I managed to win on a Island Plates map (or was it Continents & Islands?) on deity, standard speed, only on turn 185. This is good, but in no way very early, and I was save scumming in the first 50 turns for a religion since I had a natural wonder 6 tiles from my capitol I wanted to use for work ethics. I might not be a good player and surely better players would save maybe 15 turns here, but now I doubt my previous expectation, that a sub turn 150 win is guaranteed with babylon on deity standard speed. Once maybe for a pro player, but nothing I could pull of in general.

Nevertheless I share the experience of many here: While there are certainly a few eurekas which (nearly) break balance, it is not in the way, that you can fool around and still win under all conditions. For MP it's surely a ban, but for single player it is simply a very fun and unique approach to the game, which I enjoy a lot.

I do not enjoy games which are imbalanced in their basic game mechanics. This spoils the fun.

But if there is a single civ, which provides me with a unique play style but which I do not have to use, I'm very much fine with it. I trade balance for that: If I want to have a little fun, I can play Babylon. I have absolutely no fear to meet Babylon as an AI opponent in deity. As long as Firaxis does not script a Pike&Shot push or something like that into the AI code, I think the eurekas are too hard to take advantage of. I must admit I have not played games against Babylon AI, but the AI on higher levels has so many bonusses already that they worked similar to Babylon for years now

Civ 6 allows for snowballing and that is the only way to beat the AI on higher levels. The fun thing is that there are so many ways to do it and each game is different.

 

[criZp]

In my last game as Persia, Babylon was technologically backward most of the game. So no, Babylon is not broken at all.

Of course the AI cannot do anything right, that doesn't mean babylon isn't supergood.

 

[AntSou]

As I mentioned on the First Look thread, I unlocked The Wheel and Rifling on the same turn in the one partial game I played with them.

How did that happen? You need Niter for Rifling, which is only revealed in the Medieval Era.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

How did that happen? You need Niter for Rifling, which is only revealed in the Medieval Era.

You can build an Aqueduct which unlocks Niter at Military Engineering.

 

[AntSou]

You can build an Aqueduct which unlocks Niter at Military Engineering.

Engineering (which unlocks Aqueducts) follows from The Wheel, so it must be with the Tech Shuffle Mode.

 

[Leucarum]

You can only plan for so much, though. Many Eurekas rely heavily on getting a favorable map - you need strategic resources nearby, you need mountains, you need coast, you need enemy units nearby that you can kill, and so on.

Some eurekas are for sure harder to come by than others, and some may be a roll of the dice... but I don't think the map is the big hurdle simply because Babylon has so many routes to go down that they can pick the one which best suits the map. Moreover, Crossbowmen and pike/shot super early is pretty much map independent... As are Caravels if a navy is going to be more useful.

Maybe I am underestimating how big the hurdle is though. It is kind of difficult to know without sitting a bunch of fresh faces to civ6 in front of Babylon and seeing how they do...

It's a very different style of play - but I wish they needed all the prereqs to get a tech they have eureka'd or that they were shifted to getting free civics from eurekas instead of techs... The latter would fit Hammurabi so much better and the civic tree seems somewhat better balanced for this style of gameplay.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Engineering (which unlocks Aqueducts) follows from The Wheel, so it must be with the Tech Shuffle Mode.

Babylon doesn't care about which tech follows which one though. Engineering can be unlocked by building an Ancient Walls, which is unlocked by Masonry, which can be triggered by a Quarry. So the tech order is Mining, Masonry, Engineering, Military Engineering to unlock Niter, no Wheel is needed

 

[KayAU]

Babylon doesn't care about which tech follows which one though. Engineering can be unlocked by building an Ancient Walls, which is unlocked by Masonry, which can be triggered by a Quarry. So the tech order is Mining, Masonry, Engineering, Military Engineering to unlock Niter, no Wheel is needed

You got it. I wasn't intentionally trying to do anything weird, but since it was Babylon, I was generally avoiding "hard researching" techs which have simple Eurekas. Since I didn't get any minable resources from the start, The Wheel was unlocked with the Niter mine.

 

[Manol0]

Gilgamesh's science output is literally 5 times yours, I literally have never seen an AI this far ahead even on Deity. Even Babylon has more science per turn than you and they have a 50% penalty. Whichever difficulty this is, you need to dial it down a couple notches. If you get crushed this hard by the same AIs that have been the target of ridicule for 4 years, I don't think the problem is whether Babylon is in your game or not.

Last time I played Civ VI was more than year ago... Oct 2019 to be more specific.I always play on Deity.Well AI was never getting so far ahead back then so I was catching it up in renaissance era and I was overtaking it during Industrial. Now in every game AI reach 200 science almost in the first AD turns. In my last game Bruce reached 550 science in 1000 AD which was insane. It looks like mission impossible to compete now with the strategy I used to play. I found out in the patch notes that there were plenty of AI improvements during the updates. Especially in September's one AI got a specific improvement about Science.
However this has nothing to do with the unbalance when Babylon gets Field Cannons in 325 AD.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

You can try Babylon for yourself, their ability sounds simple but this is not a civ that you can see all the caveats that come along with their ability without trying it first. Being able to unlock advanced units early is one thing, being able to put them on the field is a different thing, since your infrastructure will always be so behind. The fact that the AI knows it should build Military Engineers to put down Forts to get Field Cannons and then able to get a couple of them out is not nothing.

This is a traditionally single player game, not sure what all the fuss about balance has to do with anything and why people complain so much about it. Like, I don't know, are you gonna rage quit in a game against bots or what, stop treating it as if you are playing in a tournament with million dollars on the line. Vanilla civs are too boring, people complain they are not enough fun to play, now we have civs with unique designs, people complain cuz they can't roll over bots by following the same strategy every single game.

 

[TreVor_ish]

You can try Babylon for yourself, their ability sounds simple but this is not a civ that you can see all the caveats that come along with their ability without trying it first. Being able to unlock advanced units early is one thing, being able to put them on the field is a different thing, since your infrastructure will always be so behind. The fact that the AI knows it should build Military Engineers to put down Forts to get Field Cannons and then able to get a couple of them out is not nothing.

This is a traditionally single player game, not sure what all the fuss about balance has to do with anything and why people complain so much about it. Like, I don't know, are you gonna rage quit in a game against bots or what, stop treating it as if you are playing in a tournament with million dollars on the line. Vanilla civs are too boring, people complain they are not enough fun to play, now we have civs with unique designs, people complain cuz they can't roll over bots by following the same strategy every single game.

Has anyone tried to play Babylon with additional full Civic from Inspirations and -50 Culture yet?
If anyone's interested for even more silly game here:

INSERT INTO TraitModifiers (TraitType, ModifierId)
VALUES ('TRAIT_CIVILIZATION_BABYLON', 'TRAIT_INSPIRATION_INCREASE'),
       ('TRAIT_CIVILIZATION_BABYLON', 'TRAIT_CULTURE_DECREASE');

INSERT INTO Modifiers (ModifierId, ModifierType)
VALUES ('TRAIT_INSPIRATION_INCREASE', 'MODIFIER_PLAYER_ADJUST_CIVIC_BOOST'),
       ('TRAIT_CULTURE_DECREASE', 'MODIFIER_PLAYER_CITIES_ADJUST_CITY_YIELD_MODIFIER');

INSERT INTO ModifierArguments (ModifierId, Name, Value)
VALUES ('TRAIT_INSPIRATION_INCREASE', 'Amount', 100),
       ('TRAIT_CULTURE_DECREASE', 'YieldType', 'YIELD_CULTURE'),
       ('TRAIT_CULTURE_DECREASE', 'Amount', -50);

Destroy some bots (it's fun)

 

[Fluphen Azine]

You can try Babylon for yourself, their ability sounds simple but this is not a civ that you can see all the caveats that come along with their ability without trying it first. Being able to unlock advanced units early is one thing, being able to put them on the field is a different thing, since your infrastructure will always be so behind. The fact that the AI knows it should build Military Engineers to put down Forts to get Field Cannons and then able to get a couple of them out is not nothing.

This is a traditionally single player game, not sure what all the fuss about balance has to do with anything and why people complain so much about it. Like, I don't know, are you gonna rage quit in a game against bots or what, stop treating it as if you are playing in a tournament with million dollars on the line. Vanilla civs are too boring, people complain they are not enough fun to play, now we have civs with unique designs, people complain cuz they can't roll over bots by following the same strategy every single game.

I see your point.
I play the same strategy almost every game.
Works all the time and it works better with Babylon.
Kill your neighbors.
Win Game.

 

[Manol0]

Do you still insist that Babylon is not a ridiculous addition in the game?Just see the pic below. Turn 133 and Babylon reached 16 Population. Plus I always have it the closest neighbor and of course it declared war on me with Cuirassiers spam in turn 133 while I was having Knights.As a result he wiped all of my army. How could anyone counter this? I mean I dont seek for perfect balance... but Babylon makes the game a parody.
If I uninstall Babylon dlc do I also loose Heroes mode?

 

[AntSou]

Stop playing Deity. You insist on playing Deity, get hammered, and then blame the game for being too difficult.

We've been asking for ages for Deity to actually be difficult, so having specific Civs that can pose a greater challenge to the human player is a good thing.

 

[Manol0]

If you dont see that this is thievery ... I dont know what else could be. This doesnt make the game difficult... this is just a cheat. Its not the point to add cheat factions in game in order to make it challenging but make AI act and react smarter and I really like that AI has been significantly improved after the last updates. I dont complain about AI but the cheat faction of Babylon.You obviously missed my point

 

[salty mud]

And it's TOTALLY AWESOME!

It's supposed to be fun, not balanced. A month ago y'all were whining about Gran Colombia. Apparently everyone got over it.

Field cannons in the year 325AD and it's "totally awesome." How Civilization has fallen. If it's supposed to be fun, not balanced, why not allow our slingers to launch nuclear warheads at our foes? Why not give our medieval swordsmen vibranium shields so they can save the world like Captain America? Balance is an essential part to a fun strategy game experience, so that the player feels they have accomplished something through superior strategy and wit.

At this point I am fairly convinced folks are paid to come here and big up this game. I constantly read how the game is apparently is TOTALLY AWESOME, but in my experience it's just totally depressing.

 

[Golkian]

@Manol0
The screenshot you posted about the size 16 city at turn 133 made me wonder what should be so special about that. Are these values before being declared on or are these values after long wars? If yes, this would explain your values. If not, a little comparison might make sense.

So I looked through my old saves. All deity games, I usually try to go for culture victory most of the times, but sometimes fail or loose interest and reprioritize.

I checked 5 games where I had saves between turn 120 and 140.

Teddy Bull Moose
Turn 131
Science 80
Culture 88
Gold Per turn +54
Largest Known City (from Peter) Size 14

Kupe
Turn 128
Science 80
Culture 159
Gold Per turn +299
Largest Known City Size 14

Seondok
Turn 139
Science 144
Culture 49
Gold Per turn +70
Largest Known City (from Gitarja) Size 15

Wihelmina
Turn 130
Science 69
Culture 71
Gold Per turn +160
Largest Known City (from Mapuche) Size 14

The Seondok game was certainly a science victory game. The others I have not checked.

I have other games, where I had lower stats. These were usually the games I lost.

First of all regarding city size: I just looked into a few save files and while I did not come across any size 20 cities I do not see that a size 16 city is something totally gamebreaking extraordinary at turn 133.

Now lets look at the stats in your screenshot
Science 83
Culture 18
Gold per turn +12

While the science is not a problem, both culture and gold per turn are a big problem, even if you would be going for a religious victory. With culture that low, you most likely have a bad government, both in terms of the actual government but also in regard to the policy cards you have available.

As mentioned above, if you have these figures after you were already battling for many turns, then these figures are fine, but you cannot win with that.

You should also check the stats of streamers and see how you compare to them at the various stages of the game.

Of course cuirassiers are a big problem and I do not say that I would be able to withstand such a big army made of these units in my games at this stage. It is very likely that I would loose or get crippled out of such a war.

But that is not the point: The AI usually does not attack you, just when it is able to win something out of the war. Instead it attacks you if you are far behind. If you are far behind and want to survive you need to use diplomacy to avoid such a war.

My impression is that the values you posted indicate that you are further behind than you should be and are therefore a target.

Also: Being behind the AI in certain aspects of the game until turn 160 is in general not a problem in my experience on deity but exactly the issue to manage and to survive.

 

[Golkian]

At this point I am fairly convinced folks are paid to come here and big up this game.

Is that even an option? I did not get any money. Maybe I'm doing something wrong

Jokes aside, I understand the frustration, since loosing a Civ game is always hard to bear. You play hours and do not only not get the reward of winning but instead the kick in the butt for loosing. Do not like that either.

I would also like to have an exclusion list for civs, like the one they added for the natural wonders.

Nerfing Babylon: Not for me.

 

[nzcamel]

My main issue with Babylon is how they mess up barbarians, city states and eras. Babylon can unlock techs which greenlights barbarians (and city states I think?) to use them. That means potentially advanced barbarians showing up anywhere. They also quicken the pace of Eras by dragging up the the median tech level its more noticable on smaller worlds where Babylon has more impact on the median tech level.

This would be my issue too. I like strong competition, but I also prefer my game to not speed up hugely just because Korea (and now Babylon) turn out to be in it. Every now 'n then I'll put my foot down a bit to go up another level difficultly wise; but mostly I am role playing a bit and enjoying smelling the roses, and do question the wisdom of "global era's" (added in R&F) when some Civs shoot ahead so fast.

There is a simple solution of course - give us all a Civ picker, just as they have the Natural Wonder picker.

 

[Enfant_Sauvage]

ATEX just won a Science Victory wih Babylon at turn 138 : https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...y-science-victory.649761/page-7#post-15975223 using some cheesy strats such as hard pillage thanks to the military advance in order to avoid the lack of science. He won with less than 200 science per turn. With pillage strats and Babylon's mechanics if you go cheesy science per turn is no more a critera. It is quite amazing to see these strats. Pillage gameplays with Norway is also quick.

So I was probably wrong : for warring and pillage game Babylon seem to be one of the powerful and quicker civs for a science victory. For peaceful games I am more scpetish tho.