Discussion for new proposal: new medic as a civilian unit instead of combat unit with medic promotion

nekokon

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Aug 9, 2017
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Without changing the tree there's little that can compete with range/indirect fire/logistic, as they change how your range unit play, unless you do some unreasonable/illogical changes like slapping +50% RCS on medic to "balance" the dmg contribution. That's going into power creep zone which is another bad design (removing gameplay varieties in favor of "balancing", as equal doesn't means balanced), not to mention doesn't make any sense logically.

I'm open to suggestion, as I can't think of any way myself. But it needs to be detailed, and not just "we can just head to this direction because it has been done in the past"
 

CppMaster

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Just tweaking the numbers could make it work. E.g. Twice the amount of heal. Would that make medic OP? Then lower it. Would it still be weak? Then make it bigger. Would it be balanced? Job is done.
 

pineappledan

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Except it’s not a weak promotion and doesn’t need to be strengthened, it just doesn’t have the pizzazz of a promotion like Range.
 

ma_kuh

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Promotions like Medic which alter a unit's fundamental role in an army composition are the most interesting decisions you get to make in terms of army composition. I think the only feels-bad part of Medic is that it actively weakens the defense of the unit when you take it. It's a similar problem to Amphibious, which gives you a mobility advantage but basically sets you back a promotion in terms of actual combat effectiveness.
 

nekokon

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Just tweaking the numbers could make it work. E.g. Twice the amount of heal. Would that make medic OP? Then lower it. Would it still be weak? Then make it bigger. Would it be balanced? Job is done.
That's one way to do it, but we need a specific number that can satisfy majority of ppl if you're gonna do it that way. As of right now some said it's good as is, some said it's not good here and there, and we need one (or a few options) to propose and vote for.
 

nekokon

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I made the exact suggestion last page, but again it needs to have some number rebalancing because if left as is the extra healing boost to everything around is much better than the extra rcs from barrage/accuracy.

Again, I'm open to all options but we need a specific number to finalize into proposal/counter proposal.
So far we have:
- Proposal (1): "adjusting medic heal boost amount" (need to be good enough to sacrifice specialized offensive/defensive promotions)
- Counter proposal (2): "put range/indirect fire/logistic at the end of medic tree" (can only apply to range unit and still need healing boost value rebalanced to match barrage/accuracy tree)
- Counter proposal (3): "remove cs reduction from medic line" (only lessen the issue imo, not enough to offset the downside of missing out on specialized offensive/defensive promotions)

Personally I prefer option (2), as I think increasing healing boost has ramification effect, thus it would be too strong if stacked (with UU/UA/policy...) while too weak if not (option 1); and having both increased healing and high defensive strength (option 3) would make too strong of a combo that overpowers other options for melee units.
 
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Tekamthi

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I'd probably be most inclined to support the counter 2 you listed, if you're trying to narrow down to a single proposal
 

nekokon

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The congress requires proposal to have >50% yes and more than 10 votes yes so I think less options in the final poll is better. If we can't work out an agreement here it's unlikely to get passed on the poll anyway.
 

Rekk

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Medic I and II are fine. The Archer that takes it is meant to heal your front-line units for double/triple what they would normally heal for and contribute a little in damage. Make another Archer if you want it to have one with logistics or range.
 

nekokon

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Your frontline would only be 2 melee infantry units, and your subpar archer would take the spot of a logistic archer or siege unit to take down the city faster, not to mention itself is a good target.
I don't think it's fine as is.
 

usadefcon1

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I made the exact suggestion last page, but again it needs to have some number rebalancing because if left as is the extra healing boost to everything around is much better than the extra rcs from barrage/accuracy.

Again, I'm open to all options but we need a specific number to finalize into proposal/counter proposal.
So far we have:
- Proposal (1): "adjusting medic heal boost amount" (need to be good enough to sacrifice specialized offensive/defensive promotions)
- Counter proposal (2): "put range/indirect fire/logistic at the end of medic tree" (can only apply to range unit and still need healing boost value rebalanced to match barrage/accuracy tree)
- Counter proposal (3): "remove cs reduction from medic line" (only lessen the issue imo, not enough to offset the downside of missing out on specialized offensive/defensive promotions)

Personally I prefer option (2), as I think increasing healing boost has ramification effect, thus it would be too strong if stacked (with UU/UA/policy...) while too weak if not (option 1); and having both increased healing and high defensive strength (option 3) would make too strong of a combo that overpowers other options for melee units.

I would prefer
- Counter proposal (3): "remove cs reduction from medic line" (only lessen the issue imo, not enough to offset the downside of missing out on specialized offensive/defensive promotions)

You still lose an upgrade, but you don't go backwards. If that makes it OP then reduce the healing amount.
 

XSamatan

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For example, maybe the medic promotion can be made available via a different process. Say a unit that has healed 500% of its full HP gets medic I automatically, and medic 2 after 1000%. Thematically we're assuming that a unit that has had to heal and repair itself many times gains proficiency at doing just that. Medic promotion would no longer compete directly for XP with other valuable promos. Some new code would be required to count how much each unit healed throughout their existence, but this should be relatively trivial, and otherwise no new AI or UI etc.

I would like this solution!
 

Rekk

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I would prefer
- Counter proposal (3): "remove cs reduction from medic line" (only lessen the issue imo, not enough to offset the downside of missing out on specialized offensive/defensive promotions)

You still lose an upgrade, but you don't go backwards. If that makes it OP then reduce the healing amount.
We already tried that and it was changed to this version because it was too strong. I could see doing this in conjunction with removing it from the melee lines.
 

Fluffball

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If your going medics....you go medic, meaning you always pick up medic 2 as soon as you can. And part of the run back to friendly territory....sometimes that's not possible, sometimes you need that mainline unit to hold out for one more turn, and getting +15 HP instead of +5 is often literally the difference between living and dying. Happens all the time.

Or sometimes your melee unit in the front takes some damage, but is fortified. with a medic 2 behind them they recover 15 hp vs 5, triple the difference, and yes that really starts to matter when you have a siege and those frontline units have to sit there taking the pain.
My calculation was specifically based the basis of "retreat and heal" which was the the premise of the statement of medics doubling or trippling the speed those units get back into the fight.

A fortified unit is a different scenario where they stay in position. Looking specifically at having medic on a melee unit where we look at generally as values change with unit strength and also depending on the unit they are defending against and the territory they are in but the malice for a melee unit having medic usually outweighs the additional healing especially if they are under serious attack and usually means they are more likely to need to withdraw to heal sooner so it is not an advantage but actually a net malice promotion as currently stands and actually becomes a worse promotion over time as the negative effect scales with unit strength and also additional ways of adding extra healing are added as the game progresses. Promotions wise additional combat score (apart from select scenarios which tends to involve more micro) outweighs having medic on a unit.

There is no issue about choosing medic on none front line units apart from that seems the only choice with the current medic promotion, which is the problem i have specifically where having medic available on melee units is a false choice or as someone else already put it, a noob trap.

Personally i find that by the time i have the opportunity to get medic 2 on archers it is a poor choice as it is delaying much more game changing promotions even more as the best defense for your melee units is being able to hit and kill enemy units with more of your ranged units, my scount or scouts have come home with medic 2 so they can be used instead and at that point and the unit cap is high enough that i have adequate supply to effectively cycle units through the front line and allow them to heal and a well built road system to facilitate them doing so.

In short i see medic promotions as not competing well with other choices as it stands and as part of the fun is making decision, when there is in effect no decision it is less fun. Before the mailce was added i would scatter medic promotions around my units (including melee), now i never put them on melee units and only ever go to medic 1 on ranged units.

I like @nekokon idea of allowing medic to lead to higher tier promotions like range for ranged units so it can be a core unit which heals or a core unit which does more damage rather than a subpar unit which heals. Considering it usually requires basic tree branch level 1 to take medic why not allow it to take the place of basic promtion tree level 2 and 3 and then move onto to the advanced level of the tree so you still take the same number of promotions to get to the more game changing parts but you have a choice of how ypu get there?
 

pineappledan

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I hate to be that guy, but changing medic from a specialized promotion option to an entire specialized unit is just running in place. You’re demanding to spend the same amount of hammers that you are demonstrably unwilling to spend on a medic unit already. The fact that some players can’t abide specializing some units for support and others for damage says a lot more about their skill at the game than it does about some shortcoming in balance.

It’s pretty clear to me at this point that this is a situation where some people need to ‘Git Gud’ and not demand that the game change to suit their proclivities.
 

nekokon

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Telling ppl to git gud is just a way to boost your ego "I'm so good at this game I can even beat it with subpar strat" while doesn't denies you used subpar strat.

It's not just about difficulty, but also about being able to min-maxing your unit's potential. You don't take 1 drill 1 formation 1 medic on your melee unit because you want it to be specialized to do what you want it to do, and it should be the same as not wanting to take medic on your meant to be ranged dmg dealer.

Just like how ppl having no problem building scout into medic because scout can be fully specialized into medic support build, and they don't mix something like scouting/mobility in it just to prove they're too good there's no need to min-max. Similarly I don't want my archer who I made to do range dmg to do subpar in both medic support role and range dmg, because there's already a better unit who can do that for each separated role. I'm also all for removing medic on everything but scout line too, as they're suitable currently the only one able to get fully specialized into that role without going half way, but if it were to stay on my range and melee line I want it to have a proper build path rather than just an after thought.
 

Zanteogo

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Nov 13, 2015
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Please, don't let this get personal people. We are all working towards the same goal here.

I still stand on my previous suggestion that if we just remove the malus on the healing promo it fixes this as you can now make any unit you want a medic unit.
I honestly don't believe it should have been put on the healing promotion in the first place, as it's not worth the trade off for most units. It's also not as if the healing promotion is THAT good, even without the malus.
 
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