[Discussion] Great Admiral

[Akinaba]

Maybe this discussion is worth a separate thread.

Thread for discussion the second ability of GA. What do you think may suit, or, maybe you want something particular to to be his ability?

The idea of second that emerged in another thread is that GA should be capable to build sea fort (or coastal fort), that can allow naval units to heal themselves as thought they were on friendly territory.

Actually it's not that historically inaccurate, since there are a lot of examples in history when navies of the worlds powers established coastal forts. Moreover, there is a special naval flag, called Naval Jack, that have to be raised on anchored vessels or naval forts and exists to distinguish a territory of a state that it belongs to. So, in terms of historical relevance having such forts is not an impossible thing.

What are your thoughts on this? Or, maybe, you think that GA should stay as it is, and it don't need any revision or change?

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

I never use them, i don't know anyone personally that really uses them.

If lots of people on the forums use them, they haven't got a loud voice.

I think that speaks volumes.

 

[Akinaba]

I know it's not popular unit at all. Maybe it's a reason to add them some flavour.

Exactly this why I want to discuss it.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Certainly Great Admirals aren't all that good. That being said, they can cross ocean tiles from the beginning, which helps balance them out too.

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

Certainly Great Admirals aren't all that good. That being said, they can cross ocean tiles from the beginning, which helps balance them out too.

This is certainly a nice aspect, but they still feel underwhelming when described as "great" and they are also the only current great person that doesn't have a tile improvement attached. I think this is the main reason they feel so different an underwhelming really. They are a bit too niche.

I'd love it if they could form a canal or port or something to make naval warfare a bit more interesting and change the tide of battle or war beyond an insta-. It seems a bit of a cop out really.

 

[blash]

how about creating a minefield?
similar to the GG's ability citatel, it can damage nearby enemies for x damage.

the minefield could grant "friendly territory" while it is active.

 

[AriochIV]

Sea forts were discussed a lot in the run-up to G&K. I'd prefer to avoid science fiction elements; there's no such thing as a "sea fort." Coastal forts are something else, and in addition to having nothing to do with Admirals, the Great Admiral can't go on land.

I also don't think we need another defensive improvement that the AI has no idea how to use.

 

[Akinaba]

Look: Great Generals can establish Forts that extend your territory. In fact they establish territory with a fort in it's center. From that angle Great Admirals could also establish similar improvements (but only along coastal line). The interesting thing begins when such fort becomes overruned it must change it's nationality then (flag of other country was raised, and blah, blah, blah...) but the current game mechanic, AFAIK, doesn't allow it.

In my personal opinion it's only interesting, however devs did not provided such opportunity.

Edit: AriochIV, oh I see your point and it's quiet reasonable. Posted before I could see yours, though.

P.S. And I'm no talking about any fictioinal improvements on sea or ocean tiles. No way they should be in game.

 

[Kizo]

Since a water-based tile improvement doesn't make sense, couldn't they just have their ability strengthened to compensate? Maybe increase the combat bonus slightly, or give stacked units an extra movement point or something. Or just make it an actual combat unit with stats that scale based on tech/era.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I think half the reason that Great Admirals exist is to give Sweden something to gift to city-states and make the Mayans Long Count list longer.

 

[damnyankees]

Since a water-based tile improvement doesn't make sense, couldn't they just have their ability strengthened to compensate? Maybe increase the combat bonus slightly, or give stacked units an extra movement point or something. Or just make it an actual combat unit with stats that scale based on tech/era.

Why don't water-based tile improvements make sense?

 

[Akinaba]

Why don't water-based tile improvements make sense?

Since no country in the world yet has been able to build a full-scale defense fort in the middle of an ocean (dreadnoughts, aircraft carriers and heavy missile cruisers doesn't counts ).

 

[glaivemaster]

Oh man, some hate for the Admirals in here. Ok, I never use them, but I do kinda like them, in the right situations, just like I like Great Generals, in the right situations.

If they were to have another ability, and it wants to be similar to a tile improvement, I don't see why they couldn't go back to Civ 4's idea of Great Specialists, and have the Admiral be able to join a city to provide some bonus; perhaps +15/30 xp for naval units, or extra production for naval units, or even just a flat food or production bonus to a city (bearing in mind the city has to be coastal).

 

[mitsho]

So what if there weren't actual naval forts in the middle of the ocean? If it's the best use for gameplay I would like to have it. And I'd say that this is the one action that will make the unit more popular. The minefield f.e. would be either a) too strong in certain places (narrow straits) or b) too easily gone around and c) annoying for the enemy. Especially since "heals outside borders" is very impotant for naval units (the difference to Citadels).

Coastal Forts are not possible btw. since Admirals are naval units. Also, there's already lots of stuff to put on land tiles, whereas naval tiles can use some benefits in my mind.

I'm not sure the GA needs the buff btw. It's "can explore the whole map" is already strong to a certain degree, even if it's a gamble and navies in general are very strong with the "melee units can take cities" ability.

@glaivemaster One of the mottos of civ 5 is "put it on the map". The Great Specialists of civ4 were in the cities not visible etc. I agree with the developers that visible, straightforward bonuses are better than straightforward buffs.

 

[Akinaba]

Just a reminder:

Great Admiral already provides:

a 15% combat bonus to all player-owned naval units within 2 tiles. The Great Admiral is NOT consumed when he provides this bonus.

Also, it has an ability:

to instantly repair every naval and embarked unit in the same hex, as well as in adjacent hexes.

 

[glaivemaster]

@glaivemaster One of the mottos of civ 5 is "put it on the map". The Great Specialists of civ4 were in the cities not visible etc. I agree with the developers that visible, straightforward bonuses are better than straightforward buffs.

I figured there was some reason that they'd removed the specialists, I just hadn't heard it yet. Well, I guess that's my idea blown out of the water.

 

[UkraineNotPuny]

i don't know what's up with all the hate.
i'm a huge fan of the naval warfare in gnk and use admirals in the same way i use generals...yes, their secondary ability is kind of wonky, but it makes sense. ships can't repair in mid water - admiral repairs them.

if you take away that ability, you have again handicapped naval warfare back to vanilla (which sucked butt).

 

[LordProtector]

With the new trade routes mechanic, and exploration flavour, the GA would be greatly improved if it harvested XP for your other ships, or gold, culture, tourism, science, or whichever, for every circumnavigation of the world. That would really sit well with the Spanish, Dutch, English and Portugese civs at least.

 

[Calouste]

Certainly Great Admirals aren't all that good. That being said, they can cross ocean tiles from the beginning, which helps balance them out too.

Getting the one from the Commerce tree can be really helpful on some maps. The +2 movement helps quite a bit to be able to scout the coast yet finish the turn at an ocean tile so the Admiral stays out of reach of Barbarians.

 

[Beefie]

I thought a cool ability would be a "create flagship" ability used when the GAd occupies the same tile as a ship, and this unit then gains a combat bonus, an extra movement point and maybe the supply promotion.