[Discussion] Great Admiral

[Akinaba]

I don't see anything out of character about a General being associated with the construction of a base or fort. Admirals may oversee the building of ships, but generally not forts (even coastal), which are usually under the auspices of the Army, not the Navy.

Well, not wanting to drag no one into flame, but I'll repeat my already stated point, that establishing a naval fortresses was a common practice for Navy's. Especially in farest territories, during conquering/exploration where there was obviously no ground forces to help them build such improvements.

I think, the main complexity in giving GA such an ability is in game mechanics, together with questionable necessity of it.

-Necessary? -Not really.
-Diversible? -Yes!

 

[AriochIV]

Well, not wanting to drag no one into flame, but I'll repeat my already stated point, that establishing a naval fortresses was a common practice for Navy's. Especially in farest territories, during conquering/exploration where there was obviously no ground forces to help them build such improvements.

I don't dispute that, but in Civ V, navies don't have units that can even go ashore, much less construct anything, and the Admiral's bonuses only affect things in the water, not on the coast.

 

[steveg700]

I don't dispute that, but in Civ V, navies don't have units that can even go ashore, much less construct anything, and the Admiral's bonuses only affect things in the water, not on the coast.

Presumably, the admiral would build the fortress from an adjacent water tile, and then other ships could park in it as if it were a city.

At they end of the day, I don't see the "fix" for great admirals being the creation of tile improvments outside of their civs' territory.

 

[Bakspatel]

I like a lot of the ideas posted here. Made me think and combine to something like this:

So from what I understand from coastal fortresses is that they used to be there for the protection of trade routes, strategic placement and a resting station for the crew of a ship. Sometimes their location tended to be so handy that they eventually grew out into cities. So why not creating an improvement that fits that?

1. Allow the Great Admiral to find a spot on a shoreline to create a sort of fortress
2. The fortress would function as a tiny-non expandable city (perhaps also a name can be given, from the bottom of the city list of the civ or after real fortresses that the civ once possessed)
- It will occupy a few tiles and cannot expand its borders
- It will have a population size of 1 and cannot grow beyond this
- It is not possible to build anything in the fortress (or perhaps provide small improvement possibilities; like the construction of a harbour or something else like that)
- The fortress allows city bombing like regular cities and it is possible to place units in it to increase its defenses
- Ships inside its radius will have slightly increased combat stats
- Great Generals cannot expand its borders
- The fortress can be used to expand trade routes; if it is within a naval caravans range (something like 45 right?) it can use it to reach further destinations. Perhaps the same amount, or perhaps a percentage (like for example 50% extra) that can be increased with improvements (perhaps you can also create the possibility that lucrative routes could slightly increase the population)
3. Fortresses can be burned down or captured by opponents. Also barbarians can capture and burn down the fortress if not effectively protected. Trading the fortress with another civ would also be possible
4. Cost maintenance of the fortress is high to reduce possible spamming of fortresses around the map, forcing the player to make a good decision where to place the fortress
5. Could also function as an inland cities connection to the sea, allowing settlements inland and still keep connected to the capital
6. At a later stage it would be possible to decide to upgrade the fortress into a city. This of course should take some time before allowed

This would help improve and protect trade routes and the admirals use. The use of the fortress could also create a bigger interest in admirals and so get the player more interested in naval warfare. It also provides outposts where you can keep a part of your navy and finally solve the issue of being forced to build colonies on the coast to be connected to the capital.

 

[local_hero]

I don't know if it has been mentioned earlier, but perhaps the Great Admiral "tile improvement" could be the canal as discussed in another thread. Each Great Admiral provides two tiles to construct a canal... or something.

 

[kaspergm]

I would really like them to be able to build a naval fort on a coastal tile within friendly teritory, working exactly like the GG Citadel except sitting in the water. Friendly units would get a defensive bonus and it would damage adjacent enemy naval units. That would be a huge help in defending your cities from enemy navies.

And then they should be able to disembark and walk over land. C'mon, a GG can embark and travel over ocean, why wouldn't a GAd be able to travel over land?

 

[blash]

possible uis:
bouy - can be placed in any water tile, gives allied ships within 2 hex an additional movement speed to allow "speed boost naval routes".
sea watch - can be placed in any water tile, reveals 3 hex to protect from incoming naval assaults/barbs without wasting naval forces.

both uis could be destroyed or captured.

 

[Akinaba]

@Bakspatel:
What you have written is actually a revision of fairly part of game mechanics. First of all I'd like to point that your approach should be applied not only for (imaginable) GA improvement, but also for Great General Citadels. On my POW Citadels are also should be capable to work as some kind of "Forward Operating Bases" on far lands. I agree with you on most points exept:
I think that Coastal Fortress or Citadels need a population. Seriously, why? They could be treated like a small cities even without population, and if a player need to "upgrade" a fort or citadel to a city he can always build a settler and found a city there.

P.S. Seriously, I wonder why some of you, people, are being disturbed by GA's possible ability to build an on land improvement (it doesn't even have to be cappable to enter a land for it), and not being disturbed by GG's ability to found a Citadel?

 

[bcaiko]

3) Signal/listening post. Improvement that can be built on any land tile adjacent to the admiral in your land, gives sight up to 6 tiles in every direction. Most coastal defences system relied on knowing the enemy was coming as early as possible, and it's also very useful in Civ. More realistic (IMO) and in character than an admiral building a fort.

I really like this idea. It would be very useful to peaceful civs (which this expansion is focused on), and would be a nice differentiation from the Great General. In wartime, it'd be a viable building you might want to build instead of keeping your admiral around, giving you an interesting choice. I'd also propose that the post work as "friendly territory" that your ships should be able to heal on.

 

[Deggial]

I like the building! However, I don't like it tied to the Great Admiral - it seems a little bit too "small" for a special improvement.

I would queue it into the long list of desirable worker-buildable "standard" tile improvements (together with canals, airfields and possibly other useful but expensive to maintain buildings).

 

[SemperFi2382]

I don't know if it has been mentioned earlier, but perhaps the Great Admiral "tile improvement" could be the canal as discussed in another thread. Each Great Admiral provides two tiles to construct a canal... or something.

How I long for a canal-like improvement, especially for the huge lakes locked from the ocean by one tile of land. I really do not want to have to build a city there just to have access.

 

[Luckystrike77]

Great Admiral is super powerfull if you get it before Navigation. He can explore the sea.

Besides that I don't see why both the Great General and Admiral need to be so powerfull as other Great People. They are not generated the same way and don't make the next ordinary Great Person more expensive to generate.

In my opinion the buff of the Great General has ruined combat in multiplayer, making it all about culture bombing your way to the opponents city. The worst "exploit" is having a citadel in a til next to an enemy city, making the defender unit in the city lose Health every turn. This mess of citadels in clusters used offensively really turns me off, and has almost made me abondon multiplayer (and I never play singleplayer). It really makes warfare less fun for me. All this is the result of people in the forum whining for more powerfull Great Generals......

Gods and Kings was great, but this change...

Naval Fortress sounds OK to me, as long it doesen't culture bomb too...

 

[MisterBoomBoom]

I too see a need to improve the GA unit. And we seem to have missed the obvious. Like the Great General, when building it's citadel, allow it to claim sea hexs simply without the citadel build. Sea hexes are often just as valuable if not more so with certain luxuries etc but the game seems to refuse to expand into them as quickly as land ones. Sea/ocean hexes are excellent in establishing borders and stopping other civs in their tracks early on. Exactly what a Seapower civ needs and wants! A minor adjustment but an important ability that also keeps with the GG ability as well. I personally could never understand why they choose not to empower it this way from the beginning.

 

[Deggial]

I don't know, 6 tiles is a LOT of vision. That's as much as a city that has completely popped its borders in every direction to 5 hexes. That's a lot of sight.

Or, how about, even better, a colony?
Can be built in any neutral tile adjacent to the sea by a great admiral. Converts that tile and all adjacent ones to your culture, cannot flip tiles already owned. Grants access to resource (like all great improvements), and also give a +50% defensive bonus (like a normal fort).

I suddenly really want this!

You are right: as a buildable improvement, 4 (or even 3) tiles sight range would be enough. The idea itself isn't new, by the way. There was a a similar improvement in "Call to Power II".

Nice to see another see-fort (or colony, if you like) supporter!

Naval Fortress sounds OK to me, as long it doesen't culture bomb too...

Some culture bomb seems to be necessary. But, as Lord Olleus stated, flipping culture is not. (My idea doesn't do it, too, but I missed it to add this in the description.)

 

[Luckystrike77]

In my opinion you should have to conquer cities to get Territory, not just happen to own a general or admiral. I think giving them culture bomb abilities really nerfs down the peacefull tall player that has invested in culture all too much, and it doesn't add much fun strategy to warfare.

 

[Akinaba]

Can be built in any neutral tile adjacent to the sea by a great admiral. Converts that tile and all adjacent ones to your culture, cannot flip tiles already owned. Grants access to resource (like all great improvements), and also give a +50% defensive bonus (like a normal fort).

Exactly what I've been talking about.

In my opinion the buff of the Great General has ruined combat in multiplayer, making it all about culture bombing your way to the opponents city. The worst "exploit" is having a citadel in a til next to an enemy city, making the defender unit in the city lose Health every turn. This mess of citadels in clusters used offensively really turns me off, and has almost made me abondon multiplayer (and I never play singleplayer). It really makes warfare less fun for me. All this is the result of people in the forum whining for more powerfull Great Generals......

Huh, I actually never thought of this, and yes, it's sounds as exploit and not funny at all. However, I never exploited this ability THIS much.
I only want to add that Citadels as well as hypothetical Fortresses should be able to be captured and hence change the nationality of borders they establish.
Well, IF such improvement as Naval Fortress will ever see the game (of which I doubt) it would be only fair if Citadels will loose their ability to flip borders when placed near border of a civilization you are currently in peace with.

Suddenly, a thought:
Our theoretical Naval Fortress is naval related improvement, but have to be built on land. What if it will not claim territory straight like Citadel -- a tile around itself, but it will claim only one land tile (under itself) and at least three sea tiles? The main Idea is that such an improvement should capture more sea tiles than land tiles. That's all. No crossing with Citadels, no overpowering.

 

[Deggial]

...Suddenly, a thought:
Our theoretical Naval Fortress is naval related improvement, but have to be built on land. What if it will not claim territory straight like Citadel -- a tile around itself, but it will claim only one land tile (under itself) and at least three sea tiles? The main Idea is that such an improvement should capture more sea tiles than land tiles. That's all. No crossing with Citadels, no overpowering.

(Almost) exactly what I've been talking about.

But I would give it a 2 water tiles-range to compensate for the constraint.

 

[Hulking Lummox]

I really like the idea of the admiral being able to create a 1 tile canal (even in enemy territory). I agree that it should grab up some water tiles all the way out to unclaimed waters as well if possible. Successive great admirals would be required to create a longer canal - an obviously more expensive measure to take.

I do get annoyed by the culture bomb mechanic though. Great generals littering the map with citadels is just hideous and clustering is very encouraged so it gets real ugly trying to retain a luxury resource on the border of an enemy you don't want to conquer.

In my opinion units should be able to stand on enemy territory that is adjacent to your border and "contest" that land. If they stand there for 5 or 10 turns uninterrupted while the war continues then those tiles are officially contested. Once a peace treaty is proposed you can then ask for the contested lands as well as everything else. It's way more vicious but it encourages wars of territory over wars of conquest - which is part of strategy.

 

[Monado]

They need to fix the mechanics of where the great admirals spawns. In my last game all four of my admirals spawned in my capital, which was in a part of the sea completely cutoff from my entire navy. I just deleted all four of them.