Discussion of HOF power plays

Originally posted by God
@Aeson: I see how closely congested you build your cities. i realize this means less corruption and fast production early in the game, but what will you do into the Industrial times when your pop is going pretty high?

Well, it is a bit of a trade off. I sacrifice having high production cities later in the game for having more productive cities early. From a scoring standpoint it is better to have multiple smaller cities, instead of 1 larger one. That way a Marketplace and Luxuries can keep everyone happy, even in corrupt areas.

Also I dont plan on leaving many AI around too long. So there shouldn't be any need for high production cities. The main problem will be the maximum number of cities, 512 cities might be built by 500AD.
 
From a scoring standpoint it is better to have multiple smaller cities, instead of 1 larger one. That way a Marketplace and Luxuries can keep everyone happy, even in corrupt areas.

Well, if we could use the governor the way we wished it would work, it would be better to have the larger cities. You want the governors on so that it will place citizens back on their tiles after pollution is cleaned up, BUT it never leaves the specialists as entertainers. Each city ends up using 2 tiles for it's first citizen (if you want it more than just a pop 1 specialist town, that is), so the 1 large city is better than 4 tiny ones IF you had enough luxuries in there and you want to go into that city every turn and change a few specialists to entertainers.

Wait... I just thought of something...No hospitals, no factories =no pollution You don't need the governors on! How big do your cities get after railroads, etc. I bet the best way for scoring would be so the cities are spaced just close enough or far enough so it won't get over population 12, so you won't need the hospitals, and there wont be any unused tiles.

The smaller cities are definitely better in the early game for score, but what about after you have access to all 8 luxuries?


I was wondering, Aeson I was thinking maybe you would have disbanded some of those cities (after all the AI is pretty much dead), and make them settlers, and have them join a nearby city, thus allowing the bigger cities.
 
Originally posted by Aeson
The Japanese Iron War
Nice presentation Aeson! And it looks like that game is going really well!

I've just learned something interesting about intimidation, wonder if you have noticed this. You can sometimes get more (sometimes much more) from renogotiating peace by first declaring war. I renogotiate peace, then take it off the table, resulting in war. But the AI is still talking to me! (So perhaps this should be considered an exploit - the conversation should perhaps end at that point.) Now offer peace again. They are more anxious for peace at this point. Even though it is still the same turn, this can result in moving items from the "I doubt they will" category to the "acceptable" category! It does of course mean they end up furious all the time. But I haven't had anyone declare war as a result - they seem to abide by the repeating 20 turn peace deals.

I've been playing a maximum intimidation test game with surprising results. I'm using Egypt, huge archipelago, dry/cold/young, 15 AI Civs. I started on a peninsula, a bit trapped, built 11 towns. At 10 AD I have 43 towns (32 of them donated :), there was one more which I gave back due to a barb uprising), have all tech to date, all maps, 1200gold, am leading in score (1028), in power, and in culture (by about 3:1 in culture.) Not a HOF world beater by any means, but a rather strong start for not having fired a shot! Almost seems too easy, I've paid little attention to what I'm building.

It may be possible to get a Domination win against 15 rivals without firing a shot :)

I'd sure like to get this technique working at Deity, not sure it is possible. Might be. The map I'm playing is far from perfect for it. E.g. archipelago meant I didn't meet some rivals and start intimidating them until a fairly late date. (One of them is still isolated somewhere out there at 10AD.) Iroquois or even Babs probably better than Egypt. Anyway, very interesting just how strong intimidation can be!
 
Wait... I just thought of something...No hospitals, no factories =no pollution

One of the main selling points of ICS later in the game. It means you have to build about double the number of Marketplaces and Aqueducts, but they are much cheaper than Hospitals and Mass Transits you save yourself from building. Not having to worry about pollution at all (or just around a handful of your cities) makes a big difference too.

I've just learned something interesting about intimidation, wonder if you have noticed this. You can sometimes get more (sometimes much more) from renogotiating peace by first declaring war.

Interesting observation SirPleb. I hadn't even thought to check if that would affect things. I wonder if you can get past the '2 most powerful AI' restriction this way? I don't think a peaceful Deity Domination game would be possible this way unless that restriction was somehow circumvented.

Nice presentation Aeson! And it looks like that game is going really well!

Thanks. I definitely screwed up somewhere though. I didn't come anywhere near the 3300 points by 10AD. I think it was because the Japanese never really expanded like the Persians and Greeks did in my previous game. When I fought the Japanese war, there just weren't many cities to take. It may also have something to do with the 1.17f rules. I noticed that in 1.16f my Scouts counted as military power, giving me the 'largest army' which broke city count ties. This allowed me to start demanding cities almost from the get go, instead of waiting until 1500BC when I finally took the power lead by sheer number of cities alone.

Actually the biggest difference was most of the cities I recieved were terribly unhappy. The AI whips it's citizens mercilessly, and they are almost worthless in the players possession. I wonder how the AI is able to keep them productive?
 
Originally posted by Aeson

Actually the biggest difference was most of the cities I recieved were terribly unhappy. The AI whips it's citizens mercilessly, and they are almost worthless in the players possession. I wonder how the AI is able to keep them productive?
I don't know what Firaxis did when they Patched the game. They must have forgotten to change the AI's behaviour when it comes to Whipping and Drafting, and not considering the added Unhappiness factor to it.

And Why do we inherit unhappiness? They should become Happy instead, because of the Liberation from the despot or Communist whipper/drafter.
 
Originally posted by Aeson
It may also have something to do with the 1.17f rules. I noticed that in 1.16f my Scouts counted as military power, giving me the 'largest army' which broke city count ties. This allowed me to start demanding cities almost from the get go, instead of waiting until 1500BC when I finally took the power lead by sheer number of cities alone.

Actually the biggest difference was most of the cities I recieved were terribly unhappy. The AI whips it's citizens mercilessly, and they are almost worthless in the players possession. I wonder how the AI is able to keep them productive?
I wonder... Could be that there was a significant change there in 1.17. It sure is hard to get this approach rolling at Deity. It is necessary to be stronger than a few rivals before the intimidation cycle can get rolling, subsequently using towns squeezed out of the weakest few to climb up the power ladder and include more and more of them in the cycle. It sounds like in some of your starts your tech lead helped a lot in getting the initial leverage. But at Deity that edge is of course smaller and doesn't last as long And if scouts were counting toward power before but not now that sure would make it a lot harder to get the cycle started.

I'm surprised by the unhappiness level of AI cities too. I'm starting to think that early pop rushing may be hindering it quite a bit. I've received a fair number of unhappy size one towns which recover after a while. I think that perhaps the AI rush builds to a certain limit, but that limit is not well chosen. And it then tries to compensate with luxury trading and the luxury slider, sometimes just getting itself into trouble as a result.
 
are you allowed to just turn off domination victory type and still get into the HoF? because if you can your scores would be even more massive like 100K+
 
I have a question for you guy's: Do you ever use communism or do you just use Democracy, because at the moment I'm a commie Chinese and I'm kicking some serious civ butt, like in the other four civ's have M.P.P's and there al against me but I'm still the strongest and this is my first monarch game!! :goodjob:
 
I think Communism is the worst form of government for this type of "scoring" game. The reason is that you need hundreds of cities on a Huge map to reach the domination limit. Each city makes the corruption level higher, and at some point all cities become terribly corrupt. It really hurts to have your core cities at 70% corruption or worse.

There are some cases where Communism is a great government. A smaller empire where all cities have equal infrastructure, or one where the Palace is badly positioned. The farther past the optimal number of cities though, the worse it gets.
 
Originally posted by Aeson
There are some cases where Communism is a great government. A smaller empire where all cities have equal infrastructure, or one where the Palace is badly positioned. The farther past the optimal number of cities though, the worse it gets.

And this is also true in the real world.
 
Cool thread, guys. I can't say I'm in the same league, but I have been playing around with trying to get a score worthy of the HOF here. As usual, on Monarch.

My latest attempt has frustrated me in two ways. First, I forgot to save the damn thing at 10AD (320AD is the closest I have). Second, I triggered domination by mistake in 1420AD. Clearly, I can go back and try to avert it, and I may just do that, especially since I can't submit it anyway. It appears that the domination limit on a Normal map with 70% water & continents is in the general vicinity of 130,000 sq. miles of territory on the F11 screen. I know Aeson & others have been working it out exactly, but I don't really have that much patience for counting tiles.

The score was (pitiful by the standards set by you all) 5950. I figure that could have gone up quite a bit, as my hospitals had just started to kick in. Most of my cities were around size 13-15, and steadily growing. I had all 8 luxuries and was running 10% lux spending just to make absolutely sure everyone was happy. My culture was very close to 50,000 so I wouldn't have had THAT much time, unless I sold off all my libraries and universities. I don't think I could have brought myself to do that, though. It just seems so...artificial (yeah, I know, so's the game).

My conversion from peaceful builder to warmongering builder is nearly complete. I just didn't know the POWER of the Dark Side. :lol:

-Arrian
 
Originally posted by Dutchman
I have a question for you guy's: Do you ever use communism or do you just use Democracy, because at the moment I'm a commie Chinese and I'm kicking some serious civ butt, like in the other four civ's have M.P.P's and there al against me but I'm still the strongest and this is my first monarch game!! :goodjob:

Communism is terrible. I finally let my civ try it out. Ugh. Considering the level of corruption reduced production to virtually nothing anarchy was better ~ at least i was making coin in anarchy. Communism is the main reason big ai civ's self destruct in my opinion. Their production is pathetic they have to hurry and draft everything and all their cities become useless.
 
Well my regent game is going well. I got the most powerful civ, land, pop, and maybe units, well the Indians have tons of obsolete elephants.
I managed to crush the Aztecs all though to be safe i decided to sign MPPs with everybody else on the continent, India, Zulu, England, didn't bother with America as they are too weak.

From the beginning:
I played a large, continents3, 5 billion and normal climate. Had a good starting spot, surrounded by plains and grassland. I laid many of my cities out in a grid pattern for best production. I got a good start without any ancient wars, which really helped in my expansion. Then did some improving, and got the Great Libary which let me get lazy, and also the Great Lighthouse(totally wasted). Got 1 or 2 spearmen in every city and had temples everywhere. Put some other stuff and then started to build swordsmen for invasion of Aztec empire.

At the moment the big empires were me, the Aztecs, Zulu and India, India being the closest. The Aztecs had the largest military i assumed. I was forced to be a nice guy because i was bordered with Zulu, Aztec and Germany. Imagine that! The 3 most aggressive empires, except maybe Persians. I had about 20 swordsmen but then i realized that the Aztecs had pikemen so i put off the attack. I then looked south and realized that little Germany had no iron. I made more knights and took my swordsmen and knights to the border. I saw then that the Germans had some iron, but i attacked. Took some cities and then continued my offensive. Berlin and Hamburg put up some good figths but the others had 2-3 defenders and i cut off their iron. Germans were eliminated and now i had a border with India.

Then i went with more construction and rushed temples to gobble up land in the German area. Built more improvements, and thanks to some crafty working i got some big middle age wonders.

I set up Thebes with Sun Tzu's with intention for Leo's. I switched when i got invention and pushed for more shields by making peopel work on forests and not irrigation. Got Leo's and had set up Elephantine for Bach and had been building palace for about 50 turns. I got Music Theory and then traded for Astronomy in the same turn. I switched Elephantine to Bachs and got that in 2 turns. Started Copernicus in Thebes. It was a rush for Copernicus because after establishing some embassies i realized that i was ahead of the Indians by 2 turns. Nobody had started any wonder before so we all started from 0 sheilds. Managed to Copernicus and then traded and got some more techs. Built 5 banks and started Wall Street in Memphis and FP in Avaris. Had Heliopolis working on palace and then switched to Newtons and got it in 18 turns. I didn't bother with Smith's.

Around then i got military tradition and started building cavalry. Got Tanis to set up for Theory of Evolution even though we were still in the Middle Ages. Now i planned to invade Aztec empire. But out of nowhere Aztecs declared war on me and attacked my border cities. Luckily i had already planned that in my war they would attack and had strengted my border cities. The cavalry hanging around at the border took out some Aztec cavalry but were killed later. The Aztecs didn't have too much cavalry and i realized that they were trading for saltpeter. They still had alot of swordsmen and longbowmen. protected by pikemen and musketmen. My musketmen in the cities had been killed and i was down to pikemen and spearmen. THen i got nationalism and conscripted riflemen, my first time. I rushed some more riflemen and the cities survived. Meanwhile the rest of my cities had still been producing cavalry and they came to the rescue and took an Aztec city and razed another that had been on the other side to the world(well pretty far). After taking the city and taking more attacks from Aztec cavalry i made an MPP with Zulu and then signed a peace treaty. Both me and Monty knew it won't last for a long time. It was more like a cease fire. Later the conquered city flipped even though we were in peace. The Zulu troops finalyl arrvied north and attacked the Aztecs. The Zulu had a large military but a very bad one. Mostly consisting of sworsdmen and bowmen considering they had all the needed supplies for cavalry. Their few cavalry and a big offensive took an Aztec city. I could see they were pretty bad but why not just involve them anyway. Then the Aztecs retook the conquered city and i was forced back into war but by now i had a considerable miltary. We took back that city i conquered early on and razed it, because those flipping bastards deserved it. I divided my forces in 2 one smaller one going and taking the western cities and the larger taking the big prime cites. I had kept 2 war chariots and sent them on a 1hp cavalry, killed it and got my GA. This gave me a bonus in cavlary production and got the FP and Wall STreet quickly.
Teotichilan the capital held out for ages and i razed some surroudning cities so i won't have to trave too far for healing. Finally took it and the Zulu made an MPP with England. Later Englnand made a MPP with America the weaklings. I continued my offensive and knew that the Aztecs had no cavalry left but tons of riflemen and longbowmen which could pick a cavalry unit.
I suffered few losses and decided to involve more civs in this war. SIgned MPP and alliance with India and same with Greece. Greece signed MPP with Russia who signed MPP with Iroquoius. Soon everybody joined the war although only me, Zulu, India and few English knights did the fighting. The Indians sent just war elephants and i finally realized that the AI has some obbsession with their UUs even when obsolete. THe Zulu and India were there just so they won't bother with the techs and improvements. I did the conquering and the Aztecs were finished and i build some of my own cities where razed cities were. The Indians and Zulus managed to conquer 1 city each both were in the tundra. I rushed temples to gobble up more terrain and now after knocking the Aztecs to 2 island cities i made peace and am moving cavalry south.

Now i onnly have a southern front so i don't have to worry about the north. Next will be the Zulus hopefully with cavalry and infantry and artillery mix and take out Enlgand and America along with them if possible. Then just send tons to infantry south to fortify the India border and wait for tanks.

i attached a very oddly colored image of my map. I'm Egypt, yellow, the Zulu are black, and everybody else is the regular color. On the other continent are the Romans, Iroqouius, Greece and Russia all being weaklings.
THebes is circled in red, Avaris with my FP is in brown, the Germans were SE of the thick blue and the blue dots on the cities mean those cities were captured from the Germans. North of the green line were the Aztecs and the green dots signify conquered cities. Some of them i built with my own settlers. Only 2 of those cities belong to Zulu and India. Cities in the light blue circle are my high production cities.
 

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Reading the posts of Aeson and SirPleb, both of you are using intimidation to get cities from the AI. Could you please explain to a layman under which circumsatnces you can demand anything an despecially cities from the AI?

Thanks in advance for your insights.

Ronald
 
Reading the posts of Aeson and SirPleb, both of you are using intimidation to get cities from the AI. Could you please explain to a layman under which circumsatnces you can demand anything an despecially cities from the AI?

I don't know about Deity, but this is how it works for me on Monarch and below....

I never thought of using this either, until I had read this thread, now I use it on a regular basis. I used to only demand cities after I had conquered most of theirs and they were begging to end the war. First check the histographic screen and select the Power ranking. If you have a huge lead in power over an AI opponent, then go to the negotiations screen. Go to 'active' and select Peace Treaty. This way you are re-negotiating peace, even if you hadn't been to war with them yet. So if they want to avoid war, they will give you something to prevent it. Usually you can use this to get techs or cash (or at least get techs for a cheaper price). But with a very large lead, you can sometimes get some cities off of them too. Usually you won't get both techs and cities, so you must decide which one you want.

The cities they give up are usually freshly settled cities, have no luxuries/resources, or is a pop 1 entertainer city. But getting those cities adds to your score and power to get more cities from other AI. Usually the top 2-3 civs won't give you any cities, though. The peace treaty is then in effect for 20 turns, so after the 20 turns you can re-negotiate the peace treaty again for even more cities. Or if they are extremely weak, you could just simply select a city and say 'accept this deal or suffer the consequences, without re-negotiating peace. However by re-negotiating peace, your reputation seems to stay better. I had two civs that were polite to me even though I was taking 2 cities/20 turns away from them. 1-2 cities per treaty negotiation is about average for me.
 
I tried that too. Too bad in my game the only cities the weaker civs were offering were on another continent. I usually just go for techs in that situation.
 
Heh just finished off the Zulus. THey're down to one city which i can keep an eye over. Too bad the Indians got some of the Zulu territory but i'll get those cities too.
I don't know where to go from here. The Englis have no saltpeter which means no cavalry, but they do have infantry but then again my cavalry beat the Zulu infantry with the help of 30 artillery(divided in 3 stacks of 10 and protected by 3 infantry).
Got 2 cavalry armies and have one leader waiting for the UN to rush. Largest empire, i lead 2nd place Indians by 400. I'm aiming for score of 4000-5000.

Next game will be standard or large Japanese regent game and conquest/domination victory hopefully.
 
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