Discussion of HOF power plays

Thanks for your very helpful reply Bamspeedy. I will try this in my next games.

Taken from my chat log:
[08:58] <SirPleb> this will make a very weird chat log for someone out there, GF...

Very interesting indeed. You guys are so much like me... it's almost scary. I read everything you said... too bad I missed the discussion. :( (Somehow... I have to sleep sometimes too.)
just had my best game ever on emperor level.
finally got to use the hints from this thread.

playing persians on a large map, final score of 7801 in 1991 with only one civilisation remaining.
i allowed it to continue so i wouldn't trigger a conquest victory.
i wanted to milk the game till 2049 but i got tired and the
pollution from the last nuclear war was tremendous.
besides, i haven't totally got how to trigger all the victory
conditions at the same time.
i have just spent the last 2 hrs playing and replaying the deity games cos i am trying to graduate to deity.
i started on a persian standard size map, captured some territory here and there but i can't seem to keep the momentum going.
besides, 4-8 turns of anarchy during govt transition sounds very unattractive at this level.
so i started a couple games as the iroquoi but i am striking at the wrong time when they have already got too big for me.
in several weeks i should be able to play a good minimonster
deity game.
I just thought of something, and wanted to run it past you guys - as an idiot-check (me being the potential idiot):

Mobilization supposedly halves culture point production. Having used it, umm...like once, I didn't think of using it as a milk-assistant. Until now. The first and only time I used mobilization was an early warlord level game. I clicked on the button, thinking "cool, I'll build up a big army and then switch back to peacetime mode." Only I discovered that you must make peace in order to drop out of mobilization. I wasn't at war, though. So I had to start one, fight, and then make peace in order to get out of mobilization.

Well, I'm trying to milk this game, see, and I have built all of the non-military things I really need. All that is left to do is fight pollution and make sure my people stay happy. But I've got 50K culture in 1500AD. No way I'll be able to milk properly. I do not wish to sell my libraries and uni's. So... what if I mobilize? And just stay that way until the end?

Sure, it's cheesy... but much less of a pain than selling off my cultural improvements. Whatcha think?

That could work, I guess.

The only problem I see with that is that if just 1 city ends up needing an aqueduct, marketplace, hospital, mass transit, etc. you won't be able to build it. How far are you in the tech tree? If you don't need to do any more research, why not sell the libraries? If you have enough specialists (hundreds of them), set science between 10-40%, and all those specialists will be scientists. With hundreds of scientists, the libraries don't make much difference at all. And you'll save the cost of supporting those buildings. If science isn't needed at all set science to 0%, luxury to 90% and still make a profit. With 50,000 cp at 1500 A.D. you might get cultural victory, even if you are mobilized.
since culture is cumulative, make sure not to eliminate the second most powerful civilization. just make sure not to build anymore cultural improvements.

the key to preventing a cultural victory is to make sure the second most culturally advanced civilisation is still around and u don't have more than double their culture points.

I tried it, and it's working great. By the way, it was actually 54K culture in 1485. I may have two cities without hospitals, but that's it... so no biggie.

The next issue will in fact be the mass transit/recycling centers. I've got that worked out, though. I plan to destroy the remaining AI's, with the exception of one tundra city. I could do it now, but I think it's best to wait so that I can end the war & mobilization at the same time I'm discovering ecology & recycling.

I'm sure I will still hit 100k culture well before 2050, even mobilized. However, this will allow me to milk the game for much longer than I would have been able to w/o mobilization. I intend to either launch the SS, or failing that, win via conquest (something I've actually never done).

The mobilization ploy sounds very good Arrian. Could be used to keep a few Cathedrals around that couldn't be otherwise, during those final hundred or so turns when nothing new needs to be built.

Maximum Number of Cities:

This is the bane of ICS on a Huge map, but also allows for a great benefit. If the 512 limit has been reached, the AI can't build any more cities right? So I don't have to settle those poor food areas just to hold onto resources... colonies will be able to hold them just as easily!

In my Iroquois game I was really worried about Oil and Rubber showing up in the large tundra/forest area to the south. I should hit the 512 limit in a turn or two though (498 overall cities, and I have 60+ Settlers but need about 1800 more tiles to hit the domination limit), all I have to do is raze a few cities down there and build the colonies when Refining is available. I might not even have to 'contain' the final civ because of this. :)

It still is obnoxious to have to disband so many cities though...
Hehe, just submitted my regent game. Okay so i wasn't close to beating Badluck or Bamspeedy but managed to get a score 6869, but i miscaculated the dates and i sent my spaceship 1 turn early in 2049, not 2050, but i didn't feel like doing the whole turn again with all my workers so i didn't. If i had it would 6894.

Anyway that puts me in 3rd place.

Wow i'm glad to get that game off my back. I spent the last 100 turns cleaning pollution, selling culture improvements, and changing city production to wealth and putting luxury on max.

Up next a Japanese game, either another regent or maybe a warlord. Again a HOF attempt. Large map, same conditions, except doing ancient conquest and taking out the major powers in the Middle Ages, leaving an incredibily long and boring industrial era.
I finally finished my Iroquois/Deity game! Hope it's in time for Duke's update. I ended up scoring a little higher than I though would be possible, even though I fibbed a bit on the last 100 turns just to get the thing finished.

I am attaching (linking to actually, it's over 500k) a save from right about the time the game was 'won'. I think someone requested a game like this earlier on the thread. 1280AD, just about to go to war with the Babylonians (and their German allies). It was a rather enjoyable part of the game for me.

Babylonian and German war
I'm trying somewhat of a variation of your style Aeson. Having all those scouts running around works wonders! It's really shocking when at 2600 B.C. you can switch to Monarchy! You're style is over-kill on Regent :D.

I'm using the Americans. I'm on a large continent that's on the bottom of the map, which spreads all the way across the map. I share the continent with India, Aztecs and Iroquios (of course). None of them have Iron (I also denied the Iroquios horses :), and they all are way behind in tech (don't even have Masonry, and I'm on Fuedalism). Egypt, Greece, Rome and Japan are on another very large continent to the north, they are much more caught up, and Greece got the Great Library. I got contact with them and demanded a bunch of cities, rush bought scouts in those new cities and hurried them over to the Iron resources. Unfortunately, Rome already had one Iron hooked up (two squares from the capital :mad: ). I was tempted to start war with them by pillaging the iron, but was afraid I would lose all my new cities (and luxuries), and end up not being able to hold that Iron after the war (they might get a worker back on it before I can get a scout there safely). Rome is pretty small and limited to Jungle so they won't be too powerful anyways. I got 6 luxuries now (3 on starting continent, 3 on the other). One other civ is out there somewhere, probably on some island.

How many workers do you build? That's my toughest problem is deciding how many cities I should set aside as worker-factories, to keep up with the settler flood. I got the Pyramids, and now I can produce nothing but settlers, instead of a horseman here and there in between population growth. I only have about 20 horsemen, so I may have to let my core cities take a breather from building settlers to start building horseman for awhile.
I build workers on a case by case basis. If my roads are lacking (settlers need their roads to city sites) I build a worker nearby. Usually I try to hold out with as few workers as possible until I start getting corrupt cities though. Then I just leave a few of the 10 turn worker cities building them constantly.

Buying workers is even better...
On huge maps I notice that people tend to go with 8 civs which is the HOF limit. I was wondering if it is easier to play with fewer civs?

I like to play with all 16, 1st because I love a crowded map, 2nd because that means if I knock out my neighbours early on with a few chariots or warriors, I get alot of land to expand into but the AI will get squashed in between itself.

The big factor is that the AI doesn't get as much space to expand becaues they will expand into each other. But this works because on monarch I can still out expand the AI without pyramids.

I guess on diety where you just try to build as much as possible, and try to get as much as land ASAP before the AI will dominate over you and then wait for Industrial Age to war. But Aeson and Sir Pleb are exceptions. Fighting wars in ancient times when everybody else is paying tributes to the powerful AI civs.

Started a monarch game, Japan on huge map. The game is going pretty well. Its sooo slow being so big. I'll play most of my HOF games on large maps from now on. Its only 700 AD, and I have a score of 1600 or something.

Anyway I check myself with Sir Plebs calculator and at the moment projected to score about 4000. And I have barely started. My samurai are slicing through Persia and then later Aztec. With those 2 eliminated I'll have the southern continent and the 2 most powerful known militarise other than America which is the 2nd most powerful in the game at the moment.

My tactics as I have moved up to monarch have really changed. I don't bother with any ancient wonders although I can get some of them. I went and built the Hanging Garderns. Learning that the Great Libary is not so essential.

I've started to use horsemen conquest more on a huge map. I thank the tourny game 1-1 for that. First game on a larger than small map where I used alot of horsemen rush.

Basically from begginng of my Japan game, used chariot and warrior rush to finish India off before their 2nd settler got anywhere. Then expanded a bit, built some barracks, granaries and then horsemen. Babylon to the SW had a really crappy civ. They were the weakest of my known civs (Russia, Persia, Aztec, Rome). They had 6 cities, 2 which were undefended. Finished them off with little trouble.

I was still pumping out alot of horsemen. Sent them north to fight Russia. I got a Great Leader and made an army of 2 horsemen for the Heroic Wonder thingy. After beat the Russians down with a relatively small army of 15 horsemen and w/ aid of my good friends Aztecs. Got alot of elites, and Aztecs were good friends. Finishing Russia off and got another Great Leader. Sent him to rush a Forbidden Palace. Russia finished, started building temples and libaries back home because my infrastructure was horrible. Had low research, and low income. Got monarchy but waited before switching. With some marketplaces, libaries and temples built I was in the Middle Ages. Built a few aqueducts and then out of nowhere Aztecs attacked my relatively weak army occupying Russia with a couple of horsemen. My elite won a battle and retreated. Next turn, no healing sent the elite against the other horsemen and won making another GL. Rushed Sun Tzu.

Then sacked one Aztec city and made alliance with Persia to fight Aztecs. Immortals were doing well and Aztecs were losing slowly. I stepped out of the battles, let those 2 fight it. Got chivalry and built tons of samurai. Started to position them near Persia border. Aztecs had lost 3-4 cities by now and made peace with Persia and so did I. Then a few turns later I had 40 samurai and attacked Persia, and took alot of cities easily.

Then I found myself in some trouble after half their empire was taken. I had divided my army to 3 stacks of about 10 units each, with main one having more like 13 units, half of them being elites. As they were invading my 2 bigger stacks came across big immortal stacks of 4-7. I had counted on some of those immortals being dead but they still had iron, so I retreated my stacks back to defend the borders. Got another GL and rushed Sistine. Built Leonardo's the same turn. Bigger problem arose as I saw Persian knights. I couldn't wait so I finished off the attacking immortals and knights and advanced with some stunning victories and another GL which is being sent home to rush Bachs. Now Persia is falling with no iron and 3-4 ok cities.

Once Persia is finished I hope to take out the weakened Aztecs and then wait for cavalry unless I find some weak northern civ with no saltpeter.

Japan is a great civ because I am having a good timed GA. Its helping in building those Samurai and may be spurring more leaders to show up.

I think I can get a score well over 8000 in this game. Reasons for my confidence are that, I was comparing it to my really great Egypt game on regent with a score of 6800. In that game all my wars except one with knights were fought in the Industrial times. The middle ages were used to build up my infrastucture. It was on a large map with later conquest. This game I have done conquests far earlier have a higher score comparatevely, playing on monarch which means higher modifier, also its on a huge map meaning even more territory and cities.

I started another game as Persia on a huge map. It went probably better than this one earlier on, but my Japan one will end up with a higher score. In my Persia game its around 1200 AD, and have score of 3000+ with Immortals finishing off eveybody on my home continent. The problem with that one was I was on a small continent, and couldn't do naval conquest until galleons.

With that game I can get a score of around 6000.

So watch out Beameuppy!!!
aeson, i have never seen ICS in action. that was the most cities i have ever seen crammed into a little space. i am assuming that when u initially start off, u don't build much of a military due to building all those settlers. don't u worry u will be attacked in one of ur unprotected spots?
I use lots of Scouts in AI territory. Early on I keep even friend moves on so I can see what the AI's are doing with their units. It's pretty easy to see an attack coming on a Huge map, and there's plenty of time to prepare a greeting party. I do get a little nervous at certain points in the game, but I try to view my border cities as 'buffers'. It's rare that any of my cities get attacked though, I can usually respond to advancing units early enough.

It's why I almost never build spearmen, only attack troops.
On huge maps I notice that people tend to go with 8 civs which is the HOF limit. I was wondering if it is easier to play with fewer civs?

Yes, there are two different routes to take and the seem to get pretty close to the same results at the end....

Sir Pleb likes to play with 16, Aeson with 8. For the settler flood/ICS it is easier if you have only 8 civs (more goody huts, more time to set up the flood). However, with 8 civs the tech rate is slower, and you WANT it to slow down (as far as the AI researching). So you can swamp the AI with knights while they still don't have Iron hooked up. With 8 civs you have more room to expand, so you can claim more territory at the beginning of the game, and the AI spends more time also expanding, so it is building settlers instead of infrastructure. However, if you leave an AI civ alone it WILL become very large in size and seems like a difficult task to destroy them. Contact is much slower with 8 civs so that is one major reason for the tech slow down (India on my continent still has not met anyone but me, Aztecs and Iroquis have only met each other, Russia on the island has only met me and I'm researching Chivalry).

With 16 civs the tech rate is so much faster because contact amongst them is made so much faster, and they quickly trade all the techs amongst them. Fast tech rate helps in score, by getting you railroads and hospitals quicker. And each civ won't be all that big in size, so as long as you are much stronger, you can pick each one off one at a time easier. Also, there are 16 palace regions that have been developed (terrain improvements) to quickly establish those areas instead of improving them yourself.

Update: Culturally acquired Rome's Iron! [party]
But now Greece got an Iron hooked up :( . Good thing though is right now it's only connected to one city, so hopefully I can culturally acquire that one too. It's 320 A.D. and I have 7 luxuries, hoping to culturally acquire some incense from Russia, but that's going to be hard. I have about 50 horsemen ready to upgrade when I get Chivalry. Sun Tzu's due in another 10 turns or so. I think I have about 1200+points and gaining about 20 pts/turn.

With the new patch the power of the scout rescource denial doesn't have the power it used to (or has it always been this way?). I can leave scouts in AI territory, but if it is a square immediately adjacent to a city, I will be forced to leave. I can re-enter, but sometimes the AI gets a worker on the Iron first. Plus, since you can't simply just demand cities (you have to do the 0 turn war), if the scout was in AI territory at the moment you declared war, it kills your rep. So you can't sell ROP because even if you cancel the ROP, since you used the ROP to get your scout in AI territory it's considered a ROP abuse.
Originally posted by Aeson
I finally finished my Iroquois/Deity game! Hope it's in time for Duke's update. I ended up scoring a little higher than I though would be possible
Allright! Sounds like a truly scary score, you already thought a rather high one would be possible. :) I'm looking forward to seeing the final game in the HOF!
Well, I gave up on that last game. Didn't really play too smart. Was doing it lazy-man style by automating workers. They put so many mines in super-corrupt plain areas :mad: . And right when I started up again after posting my update, Greece declared war on me and took my only gems :mad: . Greece was on the other continent so I couldn't send my knight army there for a long time.

Started a new game (Regent again) and doing a heck of a lot better! It's 10 A.D. and I'm about 40% of the way to domination. This time all but one civ is on the same continent. I have 7 luxuries soon to be 8. Babylon is the powerhouse AI in this game. The Indians will be tough, they are on the other side of the world, were the last civ to find so their territory is big, plus they don't need iron for their elepants so I better get to them quick when I get knights.

I have over 1600 pts and gaining 42 points/turn! I should blow away my old score, even though it is a smaller map. The only one with Iron hooked up is the Zulu who built a city directly on the iron :mad: . I've got that Zulu city culturally conquered down to just the city square and 2 other tiles! Is there a rule that a city built on a resource can't flip? A couple other civs had Iron, and had a worker in the process of connecting it, but I culturally acquired the iron, before the road was complete.:)

There are some automation keys that help out alot. 'Build Road to' is great! You get some workers doing that and you have a freeway for your settler flood. Also, 'Irrigate to nearest city' is helpful.

But now, Babylon has just moved a couple units into my territory....luckily this time I don't have any resources up there.
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