[Discussion] The Quest for Female Leaders

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Genghis.Khan

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In the Development of the Civilization Series, there was always a quest to Represent Different Cultures, and in the later Games in the Series, especially in Civilization V, there was an urge to represent Female Leaders. Wheteter the reason for including Female Leaders is motivated by a matter of Marketing, facing the crescend numbers of Female Gamers, representing a Market Area almost as large of Male Gamers, especially in PC Gaming, as an research, led by Nielsen MegaPanel, published as The State of The Video Gamer, as well as in a Rock, Paper, Shotgun Article and/or motivated by Cultural Diversity and Female Representation issues.
However, in both Ocidental and Oriental Cultures, during History, Female Leaders were rare, due to Descrimination issues. From Ancient Times, Ocidental and Oriental Civilizations considered Female Human Beings, as an inferior race. It was extremely uncommon for a Female to become a Leader of a Historic-Relevant Empire. I do not support any discrimination praticed against the Female Gender, for Gender issues, but trough History, it was a common situation to happen. Even considering the small number of Female Rulers, we have to consider the sucessfull Female Rulers... The small number decreases. But lastly, and the most important we have to keep in mind that there were other Male Rulers, who have probably more Historic relevance or Empire Management performance that they did. Civilization V only allows one Leader per Civilization. That means that, the Leader for a Civilization should be an icon of the Empire it represents, must have an high Historic Relevance and must be a sucessfull ruler. My opinion is that, if two or more Leaders fill that Criteria, the Female one should take the Civilization Leadership for Cultural Diversity and Female Representation reasons. In any other case, the Leader who best fills those Criteria should be in charge of the Civilization Leadership.
After a quick analysis to Civilization V: Gods and Kings, plus DLC, and Annouced Brave New World Civilizations we find that, in 37 Civilizations, there are 10 Female Leaders: Maria Theresa (Austria), Theodora (Byzantium), Dido (Carthage), Boudicca (Celts), Wu Zetian (China), Elizabeth (England), Catherine (Russia), Isabella (Spain), Maria I (Portugal). Clearly the Numbers aren't balanced. But if we keep in mind History, it is obvious Firaxis has made a clear effort to add as much Female Leaders as Possible. After asking the question, 'Did all the Female Leaders Firaxis included in Civilization V deserved that spot?', the awser is no. It's not as bad as it could be. Personally, between the 10 Civilizations with Female Leaders, there are only 3 I completely disagree. Those are Carthage, China and Portugal. Dido is a mythological character, and her inclusion is absolutely ridiculous. Leaders are icons of Civilizations, but real ones, who played a Major Role in History. Not legendary Queens. Wu Zetian is hardly an icon of China, country who generated many Historic Relevant, iconic and Charismatic Leaders, not only Mao Tsé-Tsung, as I am not discussing Communist Ideologies, with which, I personally disagree, but as Qin Shi Huandgi for instance. Wu Zetian has also a very small role in History different from various Chinese Emperors. Portugal, my home country, is the reason I posted this Dicussion Thread. I was disappointed about the Anouncement of Maria, the Mad as the Leader of Portugal. An unsucessful, unwhorty, non-iconic, out-of-theme Leader, with a small Historic Relevance, among various deserving, sucessfull, iconic, themed Leaders as John II, Dinis, Afonso Henriques or John I. The only reason for the inclusion of Maria I, seems, at least for me, the quest for a balanced number of Leaders in terms of Gender, in the Brave New World Expansion. That brings up the main purpose of this thread. Is it justificable to add Female Leaders over Male Leader, using the Gender Factor over Historic Revelance, Empire Management Sucess, and/or Civilization Representation ones?

-- Genghis.Khan
 
:dubious: Could maybe separate the writing into paragraphs so its easier to read its hurting my eyes trying to read.
 
Is it justificable to add Female Leaders over Male Leader, using the Gender Factor over Historic Revelance, Empire Management Sucess, and/or Civilization Representation ones? [/B]

No.

Is it justificable to simply hate some of the leader choices because we believe they are forced to be female?

No.

___


Honestly, if they wanted so much to put Female leaders over others, I could easily have seen Egypt with Cleopatra or Nefertiti, so its odd they put Ramesess there...

The only decision I truly disagree with is with Dido, but because of (what I kind of believe also drives leader selection, aside from historical relevance) personality.

That's why I agree with Maria the Mad, for example. Playing against Portugal is going to have a lot more of flavor, because of her personality. Is her more historically relevant? Perhaps not, though she did have a lot of accomplishments aside from being mad. Is it fair for portuguese people to have a "Personality" leader instead of a "Succesful leader"? I suppose not.

The thing is, they are not making a historical contest of success, they are making a game after all. And as such AI personality can be more important sometimes.

Now, could there have been other options? I suppose so, I'm not really familiar with Portugal's history... But in the end they didn't take them, and it isn't so bad, your civilization is still well represented (unlike, Sitting Bull of Native America)


Anyway, its a touchy issue, and its quite hard to reach a consensus there. As I said, I don't agree with all female choices anyway, Dido isn't at all interesting...
____

And... I suppose there's no need of opening a new thread for discussing female-option-preference when one is already on the go too here... With the difference being that the first post on that one likes having more female leaders because female it seems.
 
Maria of Portugal, Boudicca and Dido are the only ones that dont sit well with me. Wu, Isabella, Lizzy and the rest deserve their role, but there is no way those three should be in above Henry/Joao, Brian Boru/Vercingetorix/Brennus and, the worst of all, Dido over Hannibal. *shudder*
 
Though the contents of your post are well written please make it easier to read. Such a lump of text hardly gives an overview and will not encourage people to read it.

And I agree on the topic that gender shouldn't be the main factor when deciding the civs leader, but you do have to take into account that Fixaris aims for a broad fanbase and that includes females who find it easier to identify themselves with female rulers (there is somewhere a topic about a girl gamer who addresses that topic).

Also, though sexism was not uncommon in the past (and still is an issue today) there have been a bunch of capable female leaders that have proven themselves in the past.
 
Of course should a new expansion exist, they could give us alternate leaders for these little issues...
 
No.

Is it justificable to simply hate some of the leader choices because we believe they are forced to be female?

No.

___


Honestly, if they wanted so much to put Female leaders over others, I could easily have seen Egypt with Cleopatra or Nefertiti, so its odd they put Ramesess there...

The only decision I truly disagree with is with Dido, but because of (what I kind of believe also drives leader selection, aside from historical relevance) personality.

That's why I agree with Maria the Mad, for example. Playing against Portugal is going to have a lot more of flavor, because of her personality. Is her more historically relevant? Perhaps not, though she did have a lot of accomplishments aside from being mad. Is it fair for portuguese people to have a "Personality" leader instead of a "Succesful leader"? I suppose not.

The thing is, they are not making a historical contest of success, they are making a game after all. And as such AI personality can be more important sometimes.

Now, could there have been other options? I suppose so, I'm not really familiar with Portugal's history... But in the end they didn't take them, and it isn't so bad, your civilization is still well represented (unlike, Sitting Bull of Native America)


Anyway, its a touchy issue, and its quite hard to reach a consensus there. As I said, I don't agree with all female choices anyway, Dido isn't at all interesting...
____

And... I suppose there's no need of opening a new thread for discussing female-option-preference when one is already on the go too here... With the difference being that the first post on that one likes having more female leaders because female it seems.

Maria of Portugal, Boudicca and Dido are the only ones that dont sit well with me. Wu, Isabella, Lizzy and the rest deserve their role, but there is no way those three should be in above Henry/Joao, Brian Boru/Vercingetorix/Brennus and, the worst of all, Dido over Hannibal. *shudder*

Though the contents of your post are well written please make it easier to read. Such a lump of text hardly gives an overview and will not encourage people to read it.

And I agree on the topic that gender shouldn't be the main factor when deciding the civs leader, but you do have to take into account that Fixaris aims for a broad fanbase and that includes females who find it easier to identify themselves with female rulers (there is somewhere a topic about a girl gamer who addresses that topic).

Also, though sexism was not uncommon in the past (and still is an issue today) there have been a bunch of capable female leaders that have proven themselves in the past.

I agree that there are many examples of Sucessfull Female Rulers. I also added a few paragraphs in the text. I am not a Native English Speaker, and I'm really young, and have a small experience with English Language.

I can also understand that Firaxis has to sell copies, but wouldn't Joao II sell more copies than Maria I?

Of course should a new expansion exist, they could give us alternate leaders for these little issues...

... or give us tools to add them.
 
It's not that I don't agree with the idea of female leaders in the game, but IMHO Maria I might be taking it a little too far. Joao II and Henry the Navigator were probably better options.

Many of the female leaders in the game were certainly the most worthy leaders from their civilizations...to name a few:

~Catherine
~Dido
~Elizabeth
~Isabella
~Maria Theresa
~Theodora

But I had the same problem with Boudicca and Wu Zetian: they weren't the best candidates for their respective civilization. IMHO Brennus and Qin Shi Huang were better leaders for their respective civilizations.

After all, Maria I's nickname was 'the Mad'... :devil:
 
I wouldn't even say it's for the purpose of selling copies, as Civ adheres to a niche interest. It's not like Angry Birds or Snake, because it's based on an educational (the horror!) interest. People pulled into this kind of genre don't really care if the male-to-female ratio is up to par, they're already won over with the box art and awesome gameplay. I see them adding in unnecessary female leaders (and yes, Maria I is as at least the fifth worse leader you can think up for Portugal) because it's more interesting to have variation. If Boudicca/Dido/Theodora/Maria were replaced with more important figures, people might get bored with 15 or so different bearded white men all within two centuries of each other. (I am definitely NOT anti-beard, I'm eternally grateful for Ashurbanipal's magnificent beard.)

As for the 'personality' leader thing, I get it, but I don't see why Maria I's personality is the right one. I think Henry the Navigator (whose name is a big enough giveaway) has a personality that would suit Portugal's playstyle better.

PS: I am also not looking forward to any confusion between Maria the Mad and Maria Theresa!
 
I wouldn't even say it's for the purpose of selling copies, as Civ adheres to a niche interest. It's not like Angry Birds or Snake, in that it's based on an educational (the horror!) interest. I see them adding in unnecessary female leaders (and yes, Maria I is as at least the fifth worse leader you can think up for Portugal) because it's more interestingto have variation. If Boudicca/Dido/Theodora/Maria were replaced with more important figures, people might get bored with 15 or so different bearded white men all within two centuries of each other. (I am definitely NOT anti-beard, I'm eternally grateful for Ashurbanipal's magnificent beard.)

As for the 'personality' leader thing, I get it, but I don't see why Maria I's personality is the right one. I think Henry the Navigator (whose name is a big enough giveaway) has a personality that would suit Portugal's playstyle better.

PS: I am also not looking forward to any confusion between Maria the Mad and Maria Theresa!

Uhh, Civ V is becoming less educational. Do history classes teach us anything about mechanical objects the size of the Empire State Building razing cities or about soldiers in power armour having extraterrestrial plasma technology attacking extraterrestrials/other empires?
 
The only decision I truly disagree with is with Dido, but because of (what I kind of believe also drives leader selection, aside from historical relevance) personality.

That's why I agree with Maria the Mad, for example. Playing against Portugal is going to have a lot more of flavor, because of her personality. Is her more historically relevant? Perhaps not, though she did have a lot of accomplishments aside from being mad. Is it fair for portuguese people to have a "Personality" leader instead of a "Succesful leader"? I suppose not.

The thing is, they are not making a historical contest of success, they are making a game after all. And as such AI personality can be more important sometimes.

This, I think, is the crux of it. It's easy to sort of see Civilization as being this arbiter of history, and argue that it should only feature the most important and qualified civilisations and rulers (both criteria being highly subjective).

It's not - it's a game. Therefore Firaxis may make curious choices of who to include. Is it because they have a profound misunderstanding of history? I doubt it, since anyone can spend a few hours on Wikipedia and pick a fairly uncontroversial leader for each civ. They were almost certainly going for diversity, both in terms of gender and personality. I'm betting "Mad" Maria was very fun to design a leader animation for, and will be very fun to play against...
 
All this male/female leader talk today makes me miss Hatshepsut from IV, though Ramses is also a great choice and their gameplay wouldn't differ much. I shudder at the thought of Cleopatra returning over either though.
 
You could always have worthy female leaders (unlike say, Wu Zetian). Have Jadinga for Poland, Hatshepsut for Egypt, Seondeok for Korea, Semiramis for Assyria, and the other female leaders like Elizabeth, Catherine and Isabella, and you'd have enough female leaders. I'm happy Civ V has tried out new female leaders, even if some of the choices, like Maria I, are questionable.
 
Hannibal wasn't the king of Carthage. That's like adding Otto...er...Gandhi...wait...Joan of Arc? Never mind.
 
I think the main goal of the developers was to add a little more diversity of the game. Was I upset that Maria was chosen at first? Of course I was, but as I did a little more in depth reading on her I found she is actually a fairly interesting character. Really imagine her going crazy once she was defeated or something of the sort. Maria, although there are better Portuguese leaders, did fit the bill for the developers: she's a woman-a goal they shoot for- and she is unique, she has a personality that would be fun to see.
On the point of other woman leaders in the game, I believe that most are good choices. In the case of Boudicca, the Celts are such a large and diverse people that to choose a leader that define them is difficult. Boudicca is fixed in popular imagination and she an interesting character, with a fairly large historical significance. In the case of Dido, she is semi-mythical. As whats left of Carthagian texts she is mentioned as the founder, however she becomes shrouded with stories by the Greeks and Romans. The Carthagians are a particularly difficult civilization to deal with due to that fact that the primary sources for the Ancient World, the Romans and Greeks, absolutely hated the Carthagians. Still she was seen in Carthage as a founding figure and acknowledged by the rest of the Meditterean world as well- which I believe makes her a valid leader. Overall the developers don't just aim for historical context for this game but also things that can make the game more unique, and that is the case for both a fair amount of civs and leaders in the game
 
Uhh, Civ V is becoming less educational. Do history classes teach us anything about mechanical objects the size of the Empire State Building razing cities or about soldiers in power armour having extraterrestrial plasma technology attacking extraterrestrials/other empires?

Considering that those are tied to techs that nobody has yet, of course not.
 
your "belief" that they're picking female leaders in support of some agenda is just plain wrong
 
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