Disobeying the UN mod?

[Pbhead]

Ok so, the UN, a organisation that is, well stupid in real life is SO powerfull in the game. I would like to know if it is possible to make a mod that would allow you disobey the UN.
(How many countrys acutally listen to it anyway) There would have to be side effects.
off the top of my head, maybe one or two of these.

1. They would have to pay a amount of money to keep things hush hush

2. A serious negitave - to relations that voted for disobeyed resolution(and a small plus for those that voted against it)

3. anoying wepon inspectors poping up...

4. you would be declared war on by nations that voted for the disobeyed reslution

5.UN "peace keeping" troops that pop up randomly (VERY weak strength They are SO laughable in real life) that try to "liberate" your citys. And then turn them over to some country

 

[kingpenguin]

Most of this is very true. I would rather have the UN as it is for the main game, just for actual gaming purposes, but for a modern mod, you have to have a different, much less powerful UN. It ought to somehow provide incentive to not start wars, but still to join any wars being fought by one of the powers if accepted (still not quite accurate). Other little anti-nuke incentives or anything like that would be very hard to do, it's far too unpredictable.

 

[n003lb]

I actually like this idea, but interpreted differently. I have been tossing around a few ideas to improve the UN. Something I came up with is this:

Make the UN more realistic in that not all nations are members. Basically, a nation must apply to become a member. Non-Members cannot participate in UN votes, but also are not subject to UN Resolutions. There would be a pretty good bonus (such as extra trade revenue) for joining the UN.

Any nation can withdrawl from the UN and can then break UN resolutions. Doing so would most likly decrease international goodwill, for lack of a better term, causing all UN nations some anger toward them.

The UN can call for sanctions against any nation that goes against a resolution. These sanctions would be something like trade imbargos, or possibley even war. For war to start, an emergancy vote is called in the UN, and all member nations vote whether or not to go to war. If a majority vote yes, those nations that voted yes declare war on the offending nation. Any UN member can declare war as normal, but they will only get the UN backing if a vote is called.

As for peacekeepers, I have a whole other system on how to implement them, both with a UN system like this, as well as on an individule nation basis. It is far too complex to go into here.

I don't know if it would be possilbe to do these ideas or not, and I have no idea if the AI would handle them properly, but IMO, I think they would make a great addition to the game. I'm sure someone will disagree with me though.

If nothing else, there needs to be a way to break the NNPT resolution, as it currently makes nuclear weapons a usless concept. I have had a number of games reach the UN and every time, either the first or second resolutions proposed is the NNTP. Of course, every nation votes yes, so nuclear weapons can never be built.

 

[Rufus T. Firefly]

About the mod: diplomatic malus is a good idea, the problem will be the implementation, IMHO. Also, I dn't think that AI would be so smart.

 

[niffweed17]

i think your mod is actually a great idea, specifically because the UN can force you to change civics. i downloaded a mod which allowed the UN to demand that any nation change to any civic, but it drove me crazy because i was forced to switch to environmentalism, police state, vassalage, three absolutely worthless civics (i was going for a cultural victory) which cost a lot, plus an economic civic which took off all of the benefits for state property, bankrupting me completely, and i had to turn the culture rate all the way back to 40%.


but, getting back to the point, being able to disobey the UN is not very idealistic but is definitely realistic, and would also be very helpful if you get forced to switch to environmentalism and absolutely cant afford it or something.

 

[Robo Magic Man]

Great idea. I was always annoyed when I was working on a few nukes to bomb Delhi, or Berlin, or whoever else was about to beat me in the space race, and then suddenly saw that, despite my nay vote, a nuclear proliferation treaty was passed. There definitely needs to be a way to disobey the U.N.

 

[Dogzilla]

You should be able to ignore UN resolutions, but it should cause a big negative in diplomacy with countries that supported the resolution.
This is more realistic AND better gameplay...forcing you to do anything detracts from gameplay because there is no decision to make.

 

[maxpublic]

Anyone should be able to ignore U.N. resolutions, if they've got the cojones to stand up to the dominant powers.

I don't see how to make votes non-enforceable; looks to me like you'd have to at least change some Python, maybe the executable itself. However, you could take out the diplovote switch (set it to 0) and just give the first nation who builds the Wonder a boost in its relations to other powers. Now, buildings can't do *that* either, but you could give the U.N. Wonder a power rating (iPower) of 500, boosting your rating relative to other players and making it far more likely that they'll deal with you peacefully. Your power rating is the key factor in determining how likely it is that an AI will be aggressive towards you, so if the U.N. significantly boosts your power all the AIs in the game will become more diplomatic towards you.

You won't get to vote on U.N. resolutions, but as I see it the resolutions don't do much except strip you (or the AI) of choice anyway. I mean, really; a nuclear proliferation treaty isn't going to prevent Russia and China from bombing the crap out of each other if they go to war. Why should they be ironclad agreements in the game?

Max

 

[MeteorPunch]

I would like to see this in the main game. New resolutions added and negative attitude penalties to those who vote to adopt vs. those who vote against.

 

[ledfan]

we should be able to give a dictator lots of power and weapons to beat off someone else we dont like, and then act suprised when it goes wrong!! Now that would be realistic. Not that any known superpowers have done that before.....

Great idea for a mod, but to make it fair there has to be some fundamental advantage to disobeying the UN.

just to make clear, i ihave no problems with Americans just the administration and some of its decisions. I also think Blair is wrong, but i couldnt resist joining in!

 

[Reveilled]

The way I think it would be best to work would be to put the most powerful civs (always including the founder, and scaled for the number of acutal civs in the game) on the Security Council, which can veto any resolution. Include an option to join the UN, with the consequence of not joining being a large "You are a Rogue Nation!" malus to your diplomacy (and if you have nuclear weapons, it should be made even worse) with members. If you join, you become subject to the UN's resolutions. If you disobey these resolutions, new resolutions calling for Economic sanctions against you become available. If these pass, all countries cease any trade agreements they have with you, close their borders, and your cities are prevented from establishing trade routes with their cities. Countries who do not do this get the "you traded with our enemy!" malus in diplomacy with those who do. If you go to war with a UN nation, the UN may pass resolutions giving support to the country you declared war on (the UN member countries can send troops, money or supplies, which in the case of the former will be the equivalent of sending units into the defending country's territory and gifting it to them). If the nuclear non-proliferation treaty passes the UN, members can still build the manhattan project (which should really be a national wonder, but one which lowers in cost according to how many nations have already built it) and ICBMs, but if you build the project afterward, or explode ICBMs afterward, both economic sanctions and a UN intervention become possible. When a UN intervention occurs, large numbers of barbarian troops (not a jab at the UN, I just think it the best way to represent a multinational force) appear on the borders of the target's country.

And most important for the UN would be to reintroduce the negotiation aspect of SMAC's planetary council. When a resolution is on the table, you should see in advance how countries intend to vote, and be able to bribe them to change things.

This is probably all stuff for the SDK, though, right?

 

[hookmonkey]

On-topic. I think the UN could be changed for the better. Peacekeeping forces controlled by you or the AI are a good idea. So is refusing to obey to the UN. Nations who refuse a UN-treaty should get embargos and become some sort of outcasts.

 

[Fireb]

This is probably all stuff for the SDK, though, right?

Yes, it is. It will involve a fair bit of python scripting. There are lots of UN threads in the forums, but we'll have to wait until january before anyone can do any implementation.

 

[n003lb]

On-topic. I think the UN could be changed for the better. Peacekeeping forces controlled by you or the AI are a good idea. So is refusing to obey to the UN. Nations who refuse a UN-treaty should get embargos and become some sort of outcasts.

If you have FreeMind, I have mind mapped a system of peacekeepers that I like.. I really don't know if it would be implementable in Civ, but I believe it would be a pretty good representation of peacekeeping forces.

Basically, peacekeepers are controlled by whatever nation owns them, just like regular military. It works like this, a nation is declared on by someone, and goes either to the UN or another nation and requests peacekeepers. A treaty is signed, allowing either the UN or the single nation to send in troops to help. Those troops can fight any nation that is currently at war with the treaty nation, so long as the combat takes place on the treaty nation's soil. Open war is never declared by the UN or the single nation.

It's a little hard to follow there, so I would suggest looking at my mind map if you can. It is a bit more detailed and has examples that should tell you what I mean. It's not flawless. It's really more of a coalition design than peacekeepers, but I still like the sound of it. There are a lot of things that I think still needs to be worked out. Also, as I said, I don't know if there is any way to implement this or not. It may require changing of some of the game's hard coding, which is probably never going to happen.

Anyway, if anyone is interested, here is the map. To use it, you need to get FreeMind, a free mind mapping program. I just discovered it last week, and I personally like it. Get it here

 

[Turner]

Moderator Action: Off topic posts and remarks removed.

Please keep the topic on the mod, not a discussion on the UN as it is in the real world. You can do that here.

 

[Xavier Von Erck]

Thank you moderator!

I really hope someone picks up the idea of looking at making it possible to "go against" UN resolutions and become a "rogue state." I know there have been some resolutions passed that I've wanted to throw the shackles off of, no matter the diplomacy hit. The UN feature is so improved yet could be even better.

 

[Turner]

Moderator Action: maxpublic, gav - warned for language and continuing to post off topic remarks.
maxpublic - warned for nationality bashing.

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