DiverseCiv - Civ3 refined

[Sparrow3]

Drift: Thanks for the help.

 

[Drift]

Originally posted by Sparrow3
Drift: Thanks for the help.

Damnit, I forgot to post the unit numbers! Right now I'm slightly drunk after a party at a friend and need sleep real bad, so I'll do it in the morning when I turn my comp on.

 

[Drift]

Ok, here are the unit numbers Sparrow3.

Motorized Infantry 307
Modern Infantry 817
Special Forces 849
Horse Archer 200
Musket Infantry 899
War Galley 754
Ship of the Line 784
Dreadnought 758
Steam Transport 785
Nuclear Carrier 35
Modern Destroyer 735
Iron Frigate 767
Naval Infantry 897
Corvette 747
Javeliner 980
Siege Cannon 786
Armored Car 304
Infantry Tank 294
Mercenary 787
Humvee 305

 

[Sparrow3]

Thanks again; Drift.
I see that I got almost all of them wrong. Maybe now they will look better in the civilopedia icon and city build Icon list box.

From your Jun 10 post, I got the impression that you were rather tired of this thread. So if you don't want to discuss it any more, let me know and I won't ask any more.
If you do want to talk about it, then a couple of questions; please.
1) Javeliner 2.2.1 (Monarchy) - Don't you think javeliner should be available earlier. With Iron working perhaps. Both the Greeks and the Romans used the javelin; I believe.
2)Seige cannon 6.1.1 (Chemistry) - Wouldn't it being available with Gunpower be more realistic. Which came first canon or Musket.
3)I am not sure how you left the ship upgrades. I wonder about upgrading Iron Frigate --> Destroyer. Both destroyer and dreadnought were such radical departures from anything that came before. I can not see a steam powered sailing ship being stripped down and rebuilt as a WWII destroyer. What do you think?

Drift: I am not asking that you include any of these changes in your mod. I would just like to know what you think.

 

[Drift]

Originally posted by Sparrow3
From your Jun 10 post, I got the impression that you were rather tired of this thread. So if you don't want to discuss it any more, let me know and I won't ask any more.

I'm not tired. Actually, now that we're getting nicely settled in our new apartment and I don't have to unpack stuff and fix things every day after work I can actually work with the mod a bit.

1) Javeliner 2.2.1 (Monarchy) - Don't you think javeliner should be available earlier. With Iron working perhaps.

Javeliner has been BTW decided to be changed into a 3.1.1 unit as it doesn't make sense to lose the one defense when upgrading to Longbowman. Also, it follows the same pattern as Longbowmen as a resource free replacement to main infantry unit of its age. Monarchy could be a little late in tech tree when compared to Iron Working. I'll give it some thought and see if I can come up with a better one.

2)Seige cannon 6.1.1 (Chemistry) - Wouldn't it being available with Gunpower be more realistic. Which came first canon or Musket.

Gameplay reasons. Gunpowder (Flintlock in the mod) would be only one step away from metallurgy and cannons that make Siege Cannon defunct. I'm not entirely happy with the Chemistry either as I'd like the unit best at the start of the medieval age. However, then I'd probably have to replace it with a trebuchet as using a cannon without the knowledge of saltpeter is rather odd.

3)I am not sure how you left the ship upgrades. I wonder about upgrading Iron Frigate --> Destroyer. Both destroyer and dreadnought were such radical departures from anything that came before. I can not see a steam powered sailing ship being stripped down and rebuilt as a WWII destroyer. What do you think?

Gameplay reasons again. I simply want to minimize the amount of outdated ships AI has running around. Also, I like to encourage the player to build ships during the age of sail and not wait for the industrial age ships just because he wants to be able to upgrade them. Age of Sail is rather short in the normal Civ3 tech tree.

Thanks for the feedback. I honestly like discussing the mod.

In other news:

The Beta5 is in the works, but it has yet to take its form completely. I'll probably post a preview of what's currently in store later today. I did have a preview thread of the beta5 in the main c&c forum, but it went completely unnoticed and isn't up to date anymore so I think I'll go back to using this thread for previews and updates.

 

[Sparrow3]

Drift:

quote:
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Gameplay reasons. Gunpowder (Flintlock in the mod) would be only one step away from metallurgy and cannons that make Siege Cannon defunct. I'm not entirely happy with the Chemistry either as I'd like the unit best at the start of the medieval age. However, then I'd probably have to replace it with a trebuchet as using a cannon without the knowledge of saltpeter is rather odd.

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Yes, I see your point. The discovery of Gunpowder should be earlier in the Tech tree; but it is hard to see where it would go. Maybe the last TECH in Ancient Times. No that negates the Longbowman. Oh well, I will have to think about it some more.



quote:
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Gameplay reasons again. I simply want to minimize the amount of outdated ships AI has running around. Also, I like to encourage the player to build ships during the age of sail and not wait for the industrial age ships just because he wants to be able to upgrade them. Age of Sail is rather short in the normal Civ3 tech tree.

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Good point. I tend to build a few Frigates and wait for until I can
build Ironclads. It is not that the age of sail is short. It is that there is a lack of sailing warships for most of it.



quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In other news:

The Beta5 is in the works, but it has yet to take its form completely. I'll probably post a preview of what's currently in store later today. I did have a preview thread of the beta5 in the main c&c forum, but it went completely unnoticed and isn't up to date anymore so I think I'll go back to using this thread for previews and updates.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think a beta5 is great.
Yes, the last time I looked there were 112 pages in the C&C forum. Thing do tend to get lost there, I am sure.



Question:
Can you give me some idea where the new governments fit into the TECH tree? There are several gaps in mine where something goes; but I am not sure what.

 

[Drift]

Originally posted by Sparrow3
Question:
Can you give me some idea where the new governments fit into the TECH tree? There are several gaps in mine where something goes; but I am not sure what. [/B]

I hope I got the question right, but the locations of the governments in tech tree are as follows:

Each government has a tech of its own so I post the prerequisites of those techs.
Oligarchy - Currency, Code of Laws
Theocracy - Monotheism (may move into mid-ancient age in beta5)
Republic - Printing Press, Banking
Fascism - Nationalism
Demoracy - Nationalism
Communism - Industrialization, Nationalism
Technocracy - Scientific Method
Modern Socialism - Social Sciences (early Modern Era)
Green Democracy - Social Sciences, Ecology (early Modern Era)

It must be hard work to rebuild the mod from bits and pieces...

 

[Drift]

Beta 5 Preview:

Everyone’s favorite mod ( ) is facing big changes. Even the overwhelming response my earlier preview thread got (zero replies, one vote in the poll) didn’t get me down. I’m working on the mod and it’s going to be better and bigger than ever. Well, in fact it’s going to be quite literally much bigger than ever as the horde of new units takes up quite a bit of space…


New Common Units:

Armored Horseman – 3.1.2, costs 40 (Monarchy)
Mercenary - 2.2.1, costs 30 (Currency)

Armored Horseman bridges Horsemen and Knights together better as the jump from 2.1.2 to 4.3.2 is in my opinion too long.

Mercenary is a Swordsman replacement. It’s still under consideration, but I’d like to have a resource free option to Swordsmen.


New Unique Units:

Rome – Auxiliary 4.1.1 (replaces Javeliner 3.1.1)
Greece – Trireme 1.1.3 carries 3, costs 20 (replaces Galley 1.1.3, costs 30)
Egypt – Egyptian Warrior 1.2.1 (replaces Warrior 1.1.1)
Babylon – Marksman 4.4.1, costs 70 (replaces Longbowman 4.1.1 costs 40)
Persia – Cataphract 3.2.2 (replaces Armored Horseman 3.1.2)
Celts – Galloglass 5.2.1 (replaces Med.Inf. 4.2.1)
Carthage – Numidian Cavalry 3.1.2 costs 40 (replaces Horseman 2.1.2, costs 30)
Korea - Turtle Ship 2.3.4 (replaces Caravel 1.2.4)
Spanish – Tercio 2.5.1 (replaces Musketman 1.4.1)
Vikings – Longship 3.2.4 (replaces War Galley 2.2.3)
Arabs – Arabian Swordsman 3.3.2 (replaces Medieval Infantry 4.2.1)
Mongols – Horse Archer 3.1.3 (replaces Armored Horseman 3.1.1)
Aztec – Villista 6.6.1 costs 60 (replaces Rifleman 6.6.1, costs 80)
China – Chu Ko Nu 4.3.1 (replaces Longbowman 4.1.1)
England – Arthurian Knight 5.2.3, costs 80 (replaces Knight 4.3.1, costs 70)
France – Frank 4.3.1 (replaces Med.Inf 4.2.1)
Germany - Germanic Spearman 2.2.1 (replaces Spearman 1.2.1)
Zululand – Boer Rifleman 6.8.1 (replaces Rifleman 6.6.1)
Iroquois – Musket Warrior 5.3.2, costs 80 (replaces Musket Infantry 5.3.1, costs 70)
Ottomans – Janissary 6.3.1 (replaces Musket Infantry 5.3.1)
Japan - Imperial Marines 10.8.1, costs 100 (replaces Marines 8.6.1, costs 90)
India – Elephant Archer 2.2.2 (replaces Horseman 2.1.2)
Americans – Minuteman 5.2.1, costs 50 (replaces Musket Infantry 5.3.1, costs 70)
Russia – Katyusha 0.0.2 / 14.2.2 (replaces Artillery 0.0.1 / 12.2.2)


Planned changes:

- Theocracy sees too little gameplay and I’m considering moving it to Ancient age where it actually belongs to in terms of historical accuracy.
- Javeliner was counter-intuitive at 2.2.1 when upgrading to 4.1.1 longbowman so now it is 3.1.1
- Horse Archer is removed from the common units and given as a Armored Horseman replacement for Mongols. Three moves was a bit too much for a regular early medieval unit.
- New buildings(s) & wonder(s) are going to be considered, but I don’t have any “must add” candidates.
- Other things may go in, but this is the current main plan. Naturally, some changes require touching tech trees and stuff, but the main change is currently on the unit side.


Things I’d like help with:

UU names. Egyptian warrior, Arabian Swordsman & Germanic Spearman could need a new name. Something more unique than just a generic unit name with a nationality tag. UU suggestions are also more than welcome if you think some unit should be replaced with another, more better suiting the civ in question. Finally, I could use a second opinion on the unit stats. Are some of them over/underpowered?

 

[Sparrow3]

Yes, that was the info on governments that I was looking for. Thanks.

Originally posted by Drift

It must be hard work to rebuild the mod from bits and pieces...

It is Less hard than building from scratch as you have done. Kind of fun actually. I put one or two pieces in and play the game to see how they look. In the case of units; if I don't put in any prerequisites or resource requirements. I can build them at the start of the game. This just for testing, you understand.

The bigest trouble I have had to date was that speach problem with the Mongols. I posted it at C&C; as you suggested and got a response from an individual named Pdescobar. I also found an editor dpedit366.zip by Pesoloco that let me edit the Mongol speach responses. It is great, it takes all of the fuss out of editing a Civ leaders speach in different situations.

Having said all of that; however, I decided that I was behind the times and finally loaded Civ3PTW. I did save thw work I had done, so hopefully I can go back to it later. It is after all, a learning experience.

 

[Sparrow3]

Originally posted by Drift


New Unique Units:

Vikings – Longship 3.2.4 (replaces War Galley 2.2.3)
Zululand – Boer Rifleman 6.8.1 (replaces Rifleman 6.6.1)
Ottomans – Janissary 6.3.1 (replaces Musket Infantry 5.3.1)
Americans – Minuteman 5.2.1, costs 50 (replaces Musket Infantry 5.3.1, costs 70)


Things I’d like help with:

UU names. Egyptian warrior, Arabian Swordsman & Germanic Spearman could need a new name. Something more unique than just a generic unit name with a nationality tag. UU suggestions are also more than welcome if you think some unit should be replaced with another, more better suiting the civ in question. Finally, I could use a second opinion on the unit stats. Are some of them over/underpowered? [/B]

Minuteman - Minutemen were militia not line infantry. Poor training and poor discipline. So, I would reduce their stats (3.2.1 or 4.2.1). There is no way they could stand against musket infantry. They were better at speed and stealth. Like guerrilla units they could strike and slip away. Being able to with draw from combat would be nice.

Ottoman - Janissaries appear to have been from an earlier time. Wouldn't they be better as musketmen than musket infantry? They became extinct in 1826; about the middle of the musket infantry period.

Zululand - Boer rifleman? The Boers were Dutch settlers in South Africa; mortal enemies of the Zulu.

Viking - Does the Longship carry troops?

Also something for you to consider:
I wanted tougher barbarians. so, by adding these three units:

Barb Warrior 2.2.1 HP=1
Barb Horseman 3.2.2 HP=1
Barb Galley 2.2.3 HP=1

I can make the Barbarians have any combat capability that I want
without effecting the unit the civs use. Perhaps you would consider doing this as well. I would like to have these three ungrade at some point in the game; but I don't know how to do this. Maybe I will ask at Custom & Creation, if anyone has a way to do this.

 

[Drift]

Originally posted by Sparrow3 Minuteman - Minutemen were militia not line infantry. Poor training and poor discipline. So, I would reduce their stats (3.2.1 or 4.2.1). There is no way they could stand against musket infantry. They were better at speed and stealth. Like guerrilla units they could strike and slip away. Being able to with draw from combat would be nice.

Hmmm. The problem is that Minuteman must have comparable stats to Musket Infantry if it replaces it. I have to think about the possibility of two moves.

Ottoman - Janissaries appear to have been from an earlier time. Wouldn't they be better as musketmen than musket infantry? They became extinct in 1826; about the middle of the musket infantry period.

Good point, I'll think of new stats for them and make them replace musketmen. I've heard that janissaries were most famous as bowmen, but all the units about them are equipped with firearms.

Zululand - Boer rifleman? The Boers were Dutch settlers in South Africa; mortal enemies of the Zulu.

First of all a disclaimer: I do know a bit about history even though it doesn't seem like it considering this one. The case is that the name of the unit I'm going to use as Zulu UU stuck as I didn't think of a better one right away. However, maybe I should replace the unit with another one as it is rather distinctly a boer rifleman.

Viking - Does the Longship carry troops?

Yup. Just forgot to mention it.

I can make the Barbarians have any combat capability that I want
without effecting the unit the civs use. Perhaps you would consider doing this as well. I would like to have these three ungrade at some point in the game; but I don't know how to do this. Maybe I will ask at Custom & Creation, if anyone has a way to do this.

AFAIK the barbarians can only be given three units and they are stuck with them for the rest of the game. I'll have to think about them. Maybe stronger defense so taking them out would be actually a challenge.

 

[Sparrow3]

Originally posted by Drift

First of all a disclaimer: I do know a bit about history even though it doesn't seem like it considering this one. The case is that the name of the unit I'm going to use as Zulu UU stuck as I didn't think of a better one right away. However, maybe I should replace the unit with another one as it is rather distinctly a boer rifleman.

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you didn't know history. I will admit that mine is some what limited. I do think however that the Impi was the Zulu's greatest contribution to the art of war.

Hmmm. The problem is that Minuteman must have comparable stats to Musket Infantry if it replaces it. I have to think about the possibility of two moves.

Two moves sounds good; but for balance I think you would need to increase all horse units by one move; Wheeled also maybe. What do you think?

AFAIK the barbarians can only be given three units and they are stuck with them for the rest of the game. I'll have to think about them.

I am going to post a request at C&C asking if someone can't change this. It would be interesting if they could.

Maybe stronger defense so taking them out would be actually a challenge.

I tried a game yesterday adding three HP bonus points to my Barbarian units. This gave the conscript Barbarians the survivabilty of elite units. They still lost most of the time; but my warriors and hoplites had to work harder to take them out.

 

[Drift]

Originally posted by Sparrow3
Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you didn't know history. I will admit that mine is some what limited. I do think however that the Impi was the Zulu's greatest contribution to the art of war.

Don't say sorry. My pride just forced me to make clear that I do know the difference between boers and zulus. I can be like that sometimes.

Two moves sounds good; but for balance I think you would need to increase all horse units by one move; Wheeled also maybe. What do you think?

Wheeled mounted units was something I considered at one point, but decided they weren't in key with the focus of the mod. After all, it's not realism I'm after.

I tried a game yesterday adding three HP bonus points to my Barbarian units. This gave the conscript Barbarians the survivabilty of elite units. They still lost most of the time; but my warriors and hoplites had to work harder to take them out.

Good idea.

 

[Sparrow3]

quote: mine
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Two moves sounds good; but for balance I think you would need to increase all horse units by one move; Wheeled also maybe. What do you think?
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quote:yours
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Wheeled mounted units was something I considered at one point, but decided they weren't in key with the focus of the mod. After all, it's not realism I'm after.
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In the above quote; I was refering to giving two moves to the Minuteman unit. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I like the idea of the minuteman having two moves. That way they could attack the stronger musket infantry and still avoid being completely destroyed.

 

[Drift]

Originally posted by Sparrow3
In the above quote; I was refering to giving two moves to the Minuteman unit. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

The only problem there really is, is that the Iroquois second UU is already a two move musket infantry and I'd like to keep the UU's as varied as possible. Must look into it, though.

 

[Discovery One]

A couple a' quick things:

I think that you should try and balance the UU's with a more ancient one and a modern one (roughly) -- You don't want to overpower one in the beginning of the game, or underpower them later. I know that this might be kinda hard with a couple of the civs based on solely pre-industrialized cultures....

The Arthurian knights were a myth, and (I think) therefore outside the game. Maybe "Doughboys" or whatever Elizabeth I's pirate captains were called..."Buccaneers"?

"Frank" is wrong; it is the name of a people, not an occupation or piece of equipment. (Similarly, I hated CTP's wonder "Chichen Itza", which was a whole city!) I'll see if I can find a decent name for them.

BTW, even though it contradicts the balance issue I mentioned above, I am looking forward to attacking someone with a longship full of berserkers! Wah-Hoo!

Thanks for my favorite mod!

 

[Discovery One]

Did some looking...

Egypt: a special class of elite warriors (probably more powerful and a little later in history than you had in mind) were called the "Calasirians" more info at http://touregypt.net/featurestories/soldier.htm

Arab - I would suggest the "Hashishim", fanatic warriors famed for taking Hashish to boost their morale, and from whom we get the word in English, "Assassin".

French - again, a little later that I think you want, although ya never know... I suggest "Paladin".

India - I think that the Indian Elephant Driver was called a "Mahout", but I could be wrong about that.

German - ya got me, but "Goertzen" is a German name meaning "strong spear"....

Hope this helps!

 

[Drift]

Originally posted by Discovery One
I think that you should try and balance the UU's with a more ancient one and a modern one (roughly) -- You don't want to overpower one in the beginning of the game, or underpower them later. I know that this might be kinda hard with a couple of the civs based on solely pre-industrialized cultures....

When there has been a natural option from another era, I've tried to use it. I'll have to go through the list many times and think of all options. However, it is very difficult to think of even medieval units for the ancient civs. Of course I could just invent them like I did with the Babylonian Marksmen. Modern UU's are a bit of a problem since many people don't ever get there in their games.

The Arthurian knights were a myth, and (I think) therefore outside the game. Maybe "Doughboys" or whatever Elizabeth I's pirate captains were called..."Buccaneers"?

Again, name of the unit stuck and I didn't question it later. Now that I think of it, there is something wrong with Arthurian Knights. Buccaneer would be good, but I'd like to give England a land UU in hopes of it becoming a more feasible civ to play. As I like the unit, do you know if English knights had a specific name to themselves?

"Frank" is wrong; it is the name of a people, not an occupation or piece of equipment.

Would the more generic Axe Thrower suffice? Naturally, if you can find a better alternative, I'm all for it.

Thanks for my favorite mod!

Thank you for playing!

Did some looking...

Egypt: a special class of elite warriors (probably more powerful and a little later in history than you had in mind) were called the "Calasirians" more info at http://touregypt.net/featurestories/soldier.htm

Haa! The same site I read couple of days ago and the same name that I thought of. I decided I'd use it if no-one would come up with an ancient kingdom name. I think I'm going to use it.

Arab - I would suggest the "Hashishim", fanatic warriors famed for taking Hashish to boost their morale, and from whom we get the word in English, "Assassin".

Good idea. I knew of them, but had forgotten them completely.

French - again, a little later that I think you want, although ya never know... I suggest "Paladin".

Were Paladins mounted knights? If so, could I use the lovely Crusader graphics for them? There is a Paladin converted from AoK, but I'm trying to stay away from the converted units.

India - I think that the Indian Elephant Driver was called a "Mahout", but I could be wrong about that.

Seems you are right. However, it also seems to be a common name for elephant driver and therefore not really suitable to describe Elephant Archer unit. Elephant Archer isn´t actually too bad a name, at least it doesn't have a nationality tag.

German - ya got me, but "Goertzen" is a German name meaning "strong spear"....

That sounds perfect!

Thank you very much from this great feedback and help. It's greatly appreciated.

 

[picard]

Smells like Alpha Centuari...

Is there a way to have a supply van, that can supply resources to a city from outside? it's something i miss in civ3.

P

 

[Drift]

Originally posted by picard
Smells like Alpha Centuari...

Is there a way to have a supply van, that can supply resources to a city from outside? it's something i miss in civ3.

P

Curiously enough, I was working on an Alpha Centauri influenced mod along with DiverseCiv. However, it got never out of the design board. Maybe there is some SMAC in DiverseCiv, god knows I would've liked to see SMAC-class diversity in Civ3.

I still toy with the idea of making a modification of DiverseCiv with a choice of selected civs each having a different government type.

About the supply van, I think the closest thing is to build units just to disband them in other cities. If we could only decide the ratio of how much shields disbanding a particular unit gives back...