DLC + Modding = ?

[squadbroken]

So, tell me exactly how, with a system where only the exe is out of reach of the modders, can you lock out a civ, that is handled in a far lower code level ... at least without hardcoding a lock on DLC stuff in the exe ( this obviously suppose that Firaxis already knows all the DLC that will produce in the useful life of Civ V ... otherwise i can always play in offline mode while porting the DLC stuff out of other computer ).

P.S Obviously assuming that they will continue giving the kind of modding latitude we have in civ IV, as they promised. That is my point after all ...

Who knows? It's pointless to speculate. Either they do it right or they screw it up. We won't find out which until at least two weeks from now.

 

[r_rolo1]

Who knows? It's pointless to speculate. Either they do it right or they screw it up. We won't find out which until at least two weeks from now.

If you don't know if you're right, don't call the others wrong

 

[CyberChrist]

Since they have stated that the DLCs will be modular then I would imagine that the DLC packages come in a single compressed file - much like the *.pak files in cIV, except that the DLC files would also be encrypted with a system that only the exe file could read - and with an individual signature that would allow Steam (or whatever) to identify the DLCs and check with their registry over which DLCs you have purchased (denying use of any DLC file content not registered as being owned).

Could such files be hacked and the content copy/pasted to be used in other mods? Of course, but that would probably be something only a select few would be able to accomplish on their own.

 

[Selous]

perhaps there will be avenues to distribute some mods like DLC? im looking at u FFH
i would gladly shell out a few $$ for mods of that calibre

 

[r_rolo1]

Since they have stated that the DLCs will be modular then I would imagine that the DLC packages come in a single compressed file - much like the *.pak files in cIV, except that the DLC files would also be encrypted with a system that only the exe file could read - and with an individual signature that would allow Steam (or whatever) to identify the DLCs and check with their registry over which DLCs you have purchased (denying use of any DLC file content not registered as being owned).

Could such files be hacked and the content copy/pasted to be used in other mods? Of course, but that would probably be something only a select few would be able to accomplish on their own.

Not all the DLC are civs ... in fact, most of the announced so far are maps, with no indication of bringing unique civs with them. As maps don't use .pak files ....

 

[mjs0]

So, tell me exactly how, with a system where only the exe is out of reach of the modders, can you lock out a civ, that is handled in a far lower code level ... at least without hardcoding a lock on DLC stuff in the exe ( this obviously suppose that Firaxis already knows all the DLC that will produce in the useful life of Civ V ... otherwise i can always play in offline mode while porting the DLC stuff out of other computer ).

P.S Obviously assuming that they will continue giving the kind of modding latitude we have in civ IV, as they promised. That is my point after all ...

I'm not saying this is what has been done...but it is very possible.

Since Firaxis built the graphics engine it would be trivial to have two formats for graphical assets, one open and editable and one closed and encrypted, with the decryption algorithm delivered with the DLC as a Steam protected executable, i.e. Steam won't allow it to run unless you have the correct license.
The graphics engine could load either but, for example, may be coded to only load encrypted content in certain circumstances and from certain locations, i.e. those used by DLC.

Since I expect the primary value in DLC to be the graphical content this would be sufficient to 'lock' the DLC.

 

[Souron]

The graphics engine could load either but, for example, may be coded to only load encrypted content in certain circumstances and from certain locations, i.e. those used by DLC.

I was going to post something like this, but then I thought, how is it going to know which circumstances and locations before the DLC content is designed.

Hm. Maybe it'd be in the auto updates. Each DLC has an associated patch version that makes it work.

___

Of course if they do anything like this, then this still hurts modding, because then Mods can't use DLC content. The old system, where new content only comes in big chunk expansions is much better for Mods.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Mods theoretically will be able to, but they could only release the mod for people who have that content.

 

[Souron]

It would be hard to make it possible to do that, unless they take out DLC protection completely. I'm hoping they will but nobody else seems to think its a real possibility.

And then there's the problem of having to choose between quality and audience size.

 

[CyberChrist]

Not all the DLC are civs ... in fact, most of the announced so far are maps, with no indication of bringing unique civs with them. As maps don't use .pak files ....

I don't think you understand what I mean.

Regardless of the content of the DLC it could very well be in a single packed and encoded file that only the EXE can read without any hacking/cracking.

 

[AriochIV]

Regardless of the content of the DLC it could very well be in a single packed and encoded file that only the EXE can read without any hacking/cracking.

It's very difficult to keep this data secure. Even if the data is encrypted on disk, the program has to decrypt it to be able to use it. Once it's decrypted in memory, it can be accessed by software debugging tools that the program has no control over.

 

[CyberChrist]

Yes of course, but that is something that far from every hard core modder will be able to do - let alone the casual modders.

 

[QiZhe]

Considering "first DLC pack free" is a promotional offer for D2d? No.

Ah, but perhaps those guys at D2D are sneakier than we all thought.

 

[r_rolo1]

I don't think you understand what I mean.

Regardless of the content of the DLC it could very well be in a single packed and encoded file that only the EXE can read without any hacking/cracking.

Like I said before, that would bork modding in various ways and would be a performance hog. I'm not saying it can't be done, i'm just saying that it can't be done at the same time that you keep modding open in the level than Civ IV , even more to the "more moddable than ever" hype .

 

[Drawmeus]

For context, in Civ 4 modders had the capability of taking entire expansion packs and relatively trivially redistributing them in the form of mods. This is by far not a new problem.

Either they're making modding open and free or they aren't. They can't, for instance, restrict it so that mods can't access the files given in DLC for a new civilization. Many Civ 4-style mods rely on the ability to add variables (and sometimes delete them) to all of the Leaders in the game; if they can't add to the DLC files, then they have to be built specifically to exclude that DLC. You won't be able to load that mod and the DLC at the same time. And THAT really hurts the value of the DLC for people who play mods.

 

[CyberChrist]

Like I said before, that would bork modding in various ways and would be a performance hog. I'm not saying it can't be done, i'm just saying that it can't be done at the same time that you keep modding open in the level than Civ IV , even more to the "more moddable than ever" hype .

There is no particular reason this should add to resource requirements beyond the initial unpacking of the file while program loads - which I doubt will be beyond what we are already used to with *.PAK files anyway.

And if the DLCs are made to be modular then I don't see any reason why it would cause problems with other mods.

However, I agree that it is highly likely that it would/will cause mods based on DLC content to be nonfunctional for people without the DLCs used in such mods - and that just a few released DLCs (with content popular for modders to use) would cause mod compatability problems to rise exponentially.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Not Necessarily, a mod using DLC might have 'alternate' pointers... so that if you were trying to pull up the Babylonian leaders animation, and it couldn't find it, it would pull up a blank screen with no voice if the person had no DLC. (but still give the text)

 

[CyberChrist]

As far as I am concerned then a mod needs to work exactly the same way on the end users PC as it does on modders PC (hardware and settings aside). Anything less - be it mod not loading at all or missing/blank civ leaders, buildings, units, wonders etc. - and it falls under the category "non-functional".