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Do people actually like Eurekas/Inspirations?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by noto2, May 28, 2018.

  1. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    They're okay. Lots of rote tasks throughout the civ franchise, the impact of eurekas on #inputs game to game is tiny and it gives you an extra element to how tech progresses. Compare this to something like the poorly managed trade routes UI, diplomatic UI making deals, city management (a travesty compared to even just Civ 4, which had its own issues), or even simple unit movement and it's a blip on the radar at worst in terms of input burden.

    On the flip side, you do have to plan around a bit more when it comes to progressing tech, and at least in principle rival civs could seek to deny you some of them and take advantage. As such they're not bad from a mechanic design perspective, even if the game's limitations and some of them not being very creative/well-placed doesn't allow them to completely shine.
     
  2. conorbebe

    conorbebe King

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    I definitely like the mechanic, and it feels satisfying to me when I get a eureka/inspiration. However, it does mess up the pacing of the game, and that's something Firaxis should definitely address. Another issue I find is that where some eurekas/inspirations are very easy to achieve and are more than likely to be unlocked simply through playing the game normally, others are very difficult and not worthwhile to achieve. Some balancing in this regard would also be appreciated.
     
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  3. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    I'm guessing that alcohol was an accidental discovery too, or at least an unintended side-benefit of doing something else. There are a whole lot of things we have that we found/invented while actually working on other things.
     
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  4. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    incorrect
     
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  5. Anno

    Anno Chieftain

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    I really like them as a game mechanic, but I feel like they’re one of the primary contributors to the thing that keeps me a bit down on the game which is its pacing, so I’m conflicted overall.
     
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  6. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Well Firaxis make no secret of their 33/33/33 design philosophy in Civ. If anything they emphasis that more than ever. So while I can sympathise with the POV you guys are throwing out... that you make little reference to what we all know up front (that significant changes are absolutely embraced officially) does undermine your critique.

    :love: QI :D
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  7. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    I am taking the 'names' from their Game Context: otherwise, why does the game have separate and distinct graphics for horses, cattle and sheep, and different yields for putting pastures on them, and yet stops differentiating when it comes to 'boosting' Horseback Riding, a very specific skill/technology set? This is simply sloppy design.

    Yes, but again this is sloppy Design. Mining from Classical Era on was a physical demanding and dangerous occupation, recently (certainly in Greece and Rome) reserved for slaves or convicts. Convict and Apprentice Labor are two very different things, arising from very different economic and social policies. The Technologies that Medieval/Renaissance Mining engendered were in pumping water (the first 'steam' engines were developed for that almost a century before Steam Power was applied to factory machinery) and transporting heavy loads (ore) over short distances (the first wooden-railed 'railroads' were developed for that in the 15th century - about 300 years before the steam powered 'railroad') ). But instead having multiple Mines giving a boost to researching Steam Power, transportation, Factories or some such, they boost Apprenticeship. Yes, you can argue that there were apprentices involved in mining, but that doesn't make Mining the primary driver of the Apprentice system in Medieval Europe.

    My point remains: too many of the current 'Eurekas' are poorly selected to relate to the Technologies they supposedly 'boost'.
     
  8. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    My interpretation of the mines for Apprenticeship is that you require a certain amount of ore for fulltime smiths and apprentices to ply their trade. The problem is that both apprenticeship and metalworking (and workshops and industrial zones) antedate the Medieval period by thousands of years.
     
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  9. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    Wow, I disagree. Riding is going to be easier to learn for someone with experience handling large animals, whether an actual horse or not. It's not enough for the technology itself of course but a useful stepping stone.
    You can disagree of course but that doesn't make it "sloppy."
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
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  10. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    False dichotomy. I'm not interested in bringing back Civ 4 combat mechanics, although I will say this for Civ 4 - the game was designed to work with the AI and it achieved its goals. You know there are options other than Civ 5 and 6 board game 1 UPT combat and Civ 4 stack combat, don't you? Do you honestly think this is an argument about Civ 4 combat vs Civ 5/6 ? I've played Civ for most of my life, I love the series. If the AI can't fight it throws off the entire game and ruins everything else. This is because when the AI can't fight, the only way to give yourself a challenge is to increase difficulty, but then all that does is make the AI an economic rival but not a military one, which means at the highest difficulty levels you are not playing the same game. 95% of the game's options are not available to you and your only realistic option is to win via conquest. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that Civ games have never been MP friendly because it takes far too long. The AI is extremely important in this game because it can only feasibly be played SP.
     
  11. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    I see them as symbols and labels, similar to pieces on a chessboard. They aren't
    real knights or bishops, or even groups of individuals but just pressure and
    influence at locations over time. If you take civ concepts too literally, then
    very little will fit historical reality. It's like trying to find places for
    magical creatures in taxonomies of existing fauna.
     
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  12. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Yea, and also I think this whole stack thing is such an overrated issue.

    1 UPT doesn't cause the AI to not build walls or denounce/make demands against civs with 10x their power.
    1 UPT doesn't cause the AI to randomly attack CS's and lose envoys and the city itself due to loyalty.
    1 UPT doesn't cause the AI to fail to win by t300 on levels less than deity even with all their stupid bonuses even when it's peaceful.
    1 UPT doesn't cause war carts to have 30 strength.

    Etc....

    [Honestly the AI doesn't even really behave that badly tactically anymore since the last patch, nor do I even expect an AI to ever match the player in terms of tactics. ]

    The AI fails as badly in peace only slightly worse than it does in war.

    It's a red herring tbh. It's more that they decided to use bonuses to substitute competency and this has been true since day one. I'd say my opinion of Civ 6 would not change much regardless of what system was used.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  13. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    Which depending on the creature in question really isn't that hard. I mean, Linnaeus' original taxonomy included the kraken. :p The European dragon could plausibly be Draco draco, from which we could then add the Chinese dragon D. sinensis, the wyvern D. vipera, the lindworm as perhaps D. borealis, and even the Feathered Serpent of Mesoamerican myths as D. plumeris. How about unicorns (Equus monoceros)? Mûmakil (Elephas imperator -- going out on a limb and assuming the mûmak is a cousin of Asian elephants and mammoths rather than African elephants...)? :p
     
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  14. Flaxton

    Flaxton Warlord

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    Every time I see horseback riding I think of this:
     
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  15. masda_gib

    masda_gib Warlord

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    Ts. When you harvest cows, they don't get fed to your citizens. They become citizens of your city. (Some whith jungle; the monkeys or whatever now live in your city)
     
  16. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    Really? You actually think so? You see, I would say Civ has had the same difficulty problems since Civ 4 and it might go back earlier than that but I didn't pay close attention. What I mean is that the higher difficulties skew the game. Take Civ 5, for example. What changed between King and Diety difficulty? Was fighting wars harder on Diety? Yes, but not impossible. What about founding a religion or building early wonders? Basically impossible.

    Picking Rome and stomping a neighbour with legions is only slightly more difficult on Diety than it is on King. On the other hand, let's say you want to play as Byzantium and found a religion. King? Totally doable. Diety? Hahahaha, forget it. Or let's say you want to play Egypt and build a bunch of wonders, especially early-game wonders. King? Totally doable. Totally doable on Emperor as well. Diety? Hahahahaha forget it scrub.

    My epiphany came when the Diety AI built the Temple of Artemis on turn 16. I tried to figure out how that was even mathematically possible (must be worker chops, that's the only explanation). I saw the AI built the ToA on turn 20 MANY MANY MANY times. Hell, if it took the AI until turn 25 it was slacking.

    So the way that Firaxis amps difficulty skews the game. Some playstyles, like being an early warmonger, aren't eliminated. Of course the standard strategy was to just make friends with everyone and keep up in tech through research agreements and then win with artillery/battleships, or win via space race because the AI was too dumb to launch a ship. But ramping it up to Diety meant no culture victory, no wonder building, no being the tech leader, no founding a religion and being a religious powerhouse. So it removed many strategies and made the game much more one dimensional which erodes replay value.

    I haven't played Civ 6 in a while, so maybe you're right about the tactical AI but I'd have to say I'd be astounded if it was actually decent.
     
  17. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    That's hilarious! There's a long list of English words butchered by Americans. One that perpetually annoys me is how Americans use the word "liberals" to refer to people who are left-wing and want a bigger role for government. That is the exact opposite of what a liberal is! JS Mill and Adam Smith are face-palming in the afterlife.
     
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  18. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    Language evolves. I'm sure Londoners don't use words the same as they did in 1776 either.
     
  19. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    I'm not sure the AI's winning by T300 on Deity either, based on my tests so far. I've too small a sample to place any confidence on that assertion, but from what I've seen so far, I suspect the following may be true at Deity:
    • The AI will not win at domination.
    • The AI will not win at religion except on a Pangea map; on a Pangea map, an AI religious victory in the 200s may be possible (standard map size, standard speeds; the smaller the map size, the faster victory the possible AI religious victory time).
    • The AI is not likely to complete a science victory before T300 (standard map size, standard speed). It will start building Space Ports in the mid-200s, but take a long time to finish the required research and projects.
    • The AI will not win a cultural victory before another AI wins a science victory (they may not be able to win a culture victory at all). Even culture focused civs seem to be unable to generate foreign tourists at a pace equal to the domestic tourists of the largest other AI civ, i.e. they get closest to a culture victory around T150, then fall further and further away from victory as time goes on. I have the least amount of confidence in this prediction, as I don't have nearly enough data to confirm that a culture victory may not be possible under some circumstances.
    EDIT: One more test game, and at least the last idea has been disproved. I'm also less confident about the second point, as I've now observed a civ convert one other civ on another continent temporarily. They couldn't hold it or press forward in this case, but under other circumstances perhaps an AI religious spread to another continent could be achieved.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
  20. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I wondered why some people were as thin as wheat stalks.
    Well Ruby was not alive then so no... however its strange how English people mask the meaning of words while Americans simplify.
    The doomstacks was a mild aside assumption that you were part of that team while my discussion was basically saying you were anti 1upt (even though civ can have 5 upt including an army - or 10 upt if you want to get picky about possibilities without including armies as 3) Just a way off comment like false dichotomy... I guess you like the word a lot.
     

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