Do we have it coming?

Winner

Diverse in Unity
Joined
Sep 24, 2004
Messages
27,947
Location
Brno -> Czech rep. >>European Union
First, let me begin with the good news: WATL (Winner's Apocalypse Threat Level*) for the Mexican flu event is down to 1 on 5-point scale, which means the world is not going to end this time. I leave it on 1 because there is a negligible risk that the virus mutates into a more virulent strain.

Now, what I am up to. For you who've read "Virus X: Tracking the New Killer Plagues" by Frank Ryan, it will be easier to understand, for the rest, I'll sum it up:

The author of the book introduces concepts of "genomic intelligence" and "agressive symbiosis" to describe the evolutionary "purpose" of viruses.

Virus isn't a senseless killer which just wants to cause death and suffering. Like any other living thing, it "wants" to spread and prosper. This is why most diseases gradually evolve and change to become less lethal and less acute - that way they have a better chance of surviving, whereas if they killed are possible hosts they'd die with them. The ultimate "good" for a virus is to become practically harmless for its host - an animal, plant or human. This allows him to co-exist with the host species and its survival is thus assured. This is what he understands under the term of "genomic intelligence" - the virus is, in its own way, a rational organism.

Having read this, you want to ask: "OK, so the virus wants to be harmless to us, fine. But why should we allow it to live inside our bodies? What do we get from it?" The answer lies in the concept of "aggressive symbiosis". For symbiosis to work, both organisms must profit from the presence of the other. In the case of animal-virus relationship, the advantage the host gets is a powerful "natural bioweapon" which protects it from possible competitors. For example, one group of monkeys has a certain strain of virus in their bodies, but the virus is harmless to them. But when another competing group of monkeys violate their territory, it might get infected with it and for them, the virus will be deadly since they lack a natural immunity. In the book the author offers many examples of this happing regularly in African jungles. Thus, viruses might be a natural way how to help a species to defend its territory or to push a competing species from its territory.

To some extend, the same principle applies to human populations - when Europeans first visited the Americas, the epidemic diseases they carried with them wiped out nearly 90% of the Native American population. They had the advantage of being hosts to many different types of diseases the Native Americans had never met before - thus being very sensitive to them. Jared Diamond explained why it was the Europeans, not the Aztecs or Inca who won the "bio-battle". In short, Eurasia's populations were more connected, bigger, dense and had more species of domesticated animals acting like sources of epidemic diseases. As a result, Eurasia was much larger "bioreactor" producing more diseases.

---

Now, what I find very interesting about these concepts is that they explain the so-called "emerging diseases" like Ebola, Marburg etc. Now more than ever, humans are invading the natural reservoirs of biodiversity, the tropical rainforests. High biodiversity means more animals and also more animals close to humans - primates for example, all mammals to a lesser degree.

From nature's point of view, humans are just another group of monkeys invading a territory of another - therefore we are susceptible to the biological weapon arsenals found among many of the animal species living in the rainforests. Sure, most of them can't harm us, but from time to time, we meet an exception like Ebola: a very deadly and virulent disease that tells us "get the hell out!". These diseases are like nature's "immune system", they make it harder for the intruder - us - to destroy it.

What the author of "Virus X" is worried about is our carelessness. Just look at it:

  • human population is getting bigger and denser, making it easier for a virus to spread;
  • human societies are much more connected than ever before, any disease can travel onboard and international flight from Africa to Europe or America in less than a day;
  • humans are penetrating deeper and deeper into places where biodiversity is the highest, thus making it much more possible that they run into something deadly;
  • human civilization now has the means to produce artificial hybrid viruses more deadly than whatever nature can come up with.

Now more than ever, we are vulnerable to a biological attack, either by nature or ourselves (terrorists, cults, individual nutjobs or simply by accident).

Imagine a truly dangerous disease combining Ebola-like mortality with flu-like communicability rate. Wherever would it appear first, it would spread fast around the world, killing not millions, but hundreds of millions, maybe billions.

I am a sceptic, but I do think that this is perhaps the greatest danger for our civilization. Forget global warming, asteroids or nuclear war, this is what can easily happen and we're practically begging for it.

----

(*) Believe me, I have a well-developed sense of doom as well as healthy scepticism in my genes. When I am convinced we're all going to die, we will :)
 
Don't worry, the killer asteroid and supervolcano will wipe out the deadly virus.
 
humans are penetrating deeper and deeper into places where biodiversity is the highest, thus making it much more possible that they run into something deadly;

This is probably the biggest problem, and I think a problem less because of the threat of something new and deadly, and more because of all the genes we're losing through cutting down the jungle. The amount of biodiversity per mile is huge in the tropics compared to say North America.

'Aggressive symbiosis' and 'genomic intelligence' are interesting ideas that evolution might be conservative, but no idea of evolution trends is a guarantee of safety. Nature and evolution isn't human-centric, just like in the past it wasn't dinosaur-centric. When one grouping of organisms fails, it gives open ecology for other species to evolve and fill. Evolution and nature would be just as content to have insects as its pinnacle as it would be to have 'internal combustion engine'-using humans.

An important issue not mentioned is host jumping. When a virus of one species jumps to targeting another species. This can explain emerging diseases as well as some kind of symbiosis hypothesis.

I agree with you about engineering diseases being the biggest threat. Check out the Future of Food thread that Elta started and you'll see an obvious threat is agricultural monoculture. With dependenc on only one variety of say potatoe, we could have a food faminine all over again. No need to target us if you can target our food!
 
I am a sceptic, but I do think that this is perhaps the greatest danger for our civilization. Forget global warming or nuclear war, this is what can easily happen.
I doubt discussion at the CFC will help to suppress this threat.
 
This is probably the biggest problem, and I think a problem less because of the threat of something new and deadly, and more because of all the genes we're losing through cutting down the jungle. The amount of biodiversity per mile is huge in the tropics compared to say North America.

'Aggressive symbiosis' and 'genomic intelligence' are interesting ideas that evolution might be conservative, but no idea of evolution trends is a guarantee of safety. Nature and evolution isn't human-centric, just like in the past it wasn't dinosaur-centric. When one grouping of organisms fails, it gives open ecology for other species to evolve and fill. Evolution and nature would be just as content to have insects as its pinnacle as it would be to have 'internal combustion engine'-using humans.

An important issue not mentioned is host jumping. When a virus of one species jumps to targeting another species. This can explain emerging diseases as well as some kind of symbiosis hypothesis.

I agree with you about engineering diseases being the biggest threat. Check out the Future of Food thread that Elta started and you'll see an obvious threat is agricultural monoculture. With dependenc on only one variety of say potatoe, we could have a food faminine all over again. No need to target us if you can target our food!

Slightly OT and unrelated to what you said:

I remember that Jared Diamond mentioned in "Collapse", that the US tried to prevent all forest fires by extinguishing all beginning fires very quickly. As a result, the forests in the US have become denser and thus much more inflammable, which means it is now much harder to contain wildfires.

I see an analogy to the human population - it is becoming denser and thus mnore "inflammable". We're inadvertently creating an excellent environment for wannabe pandemic diseases, and at the same time we're sticking our noses into natural reservoirs of the deadliest diseases known to man.

Don't tell me this isn't dangerous. It's like walking with a candle inside a hayloft.

Swine flu may be a hype, but it should blind us to the fact that the danger is there and it is very real.
 
I wasn't implying there was no danger, just that the two bolded, concepts you listed were probably artificial in the scheme of things. Technically, I was implying the danger was worse, because the concepts listed were only concepts, not scientific laws.

But anyways, on your analogy. Just because it's much harder to fight the problem, does that actually require a paradigm change on how we attack the problem? What about placing more and better problem-fighting stations near the projected problem areas? I don't think that just because the problem exists and can intensify, that it's a logical conclusion that the best solution is to let the problem rage.
 
Virus isn't a senseless killer which just wants to cause death and suffering. Like any other living thing, it "wants" to spread and prosper. [...]This is what he understands under the term of "genomic intelligence" - the virus is, in its own way, a rational organism.
So as I understand it, "genomic intelligence" is nothing but a simplification of complexe and unpredictabel evolutionary processes, which points out, which vrius is going to be most successful. I have to admit it's a rather bold simplification to talk about "rational viruses" :crazyeye: but if it helps people to understand, let's go for it.
These diseases are like nature's "immune system", they make it harder for the intruder - us - to destroy it.
Now this goes really beyond mere simplification. Through physical separation develop incompatible organisms, as those organisms don't get to compete with one another. Thats simple causation and nothing more. To read in some "immune system" which gonna kill humanity because we dare to approch new areas is sensationel at best.

Deseases always will be a threat and we always will have to watch out for them. That is nothing to panic about - that's simple evolution which humans are better prepared to meet than any other race before.

There is only one point I have to appreaciate: The development of a super-virus by our selves. That is absolutly a possibility for the future. But that human kind may destroy itself one day is really old news and you could have pointed out that without reading any books.
 
No species has overshot their sustainable population without suffering a subsequent drawdown (dieoff).

Dozens of empires, with infinitesimal populations & rates of soil/resource depletion have gone the way of the dodo before us. A catastrophic collapse of a complex society due to disease wouldn't be anything new.

To our advantage we're all descended from survivors of many plagues and because of globalization we're already exposed to pathogens from all over the world. To our detriment deadly diseases now have nearly 7 billion hosts to incubate & evolve in & can travel the globe in days as opposed to decades.

On the other hand people these days understand the important of sanitation & the methods by which disease spreads. I dunno, while I won't entirely rule out another black plague I'm not particularly frightened of one personally.
 
Now this goes really beyond mere simplification. Through physical separation develop incompatible organisms, as those organisms don't get to compete with one another. Thats simple causation and nothing more. To read in some "immune system" which gonna kill humanity because we dare to approch new areas is sensationel at best.

How? Nature isn't a thinking entity, it's a word for a complex set of processes, a personification.

I didn't say that the goal is to destroy humanity or that it is some sort of a real immune system, it was an analogy. Normally, people avoided intruding into certain areas, because they were very "unhealthy" for them. Today, humans are cutting deeper into the natural reservoirs of diseases, so it's pretty logical that sooner or later, they hit the jackpot (and "win" a pandemic).

HIV most probably came from an African monkey virus, and it spread around the world killing millions. We were lucky - it doesn't spread easily if you protect yourself, so despite it's nearly 100% lethality, we can deal with it. Still, the virus is "stealthy" - it takes years to develop symptoms - therefore it managed to spread around the world before we detected it.

As the author of the book said: if HIV was as stealthy as it is now, but as communicable as common flu, we'd now face extinction because 95%+ of humans would be infected.

Deseases always will be a threat and we always will have to watch out for them. That is nothing to panic about - that's simple evolution which humans are better prepared to meet than any other race before.

You underestimate the scope of the problem. As I explained in another thread, our society is now more vulnerable to a really bad pandemic than the medieval society was to the Black Death.

In the past, no virus could spread as fast as today and no virus would find so dense human populations to spread in. That's the point:

1) We're sticking our noses into nature's reservoir of very deadly diseases
2) The parts of the world where this is happening are very underdeveloped, lacking a proper healthcare which could discover/stop the disease before it gets a chance to spread
3) Air travel can spread these diseases around the world in just few days
4) We're so overpopulated that the virus won't find it hard to infect more people

There is only one point I have to appreaciate: The development of a super-virus by our selves. That is absolutly a possibility for the future. But that human kind may destroy itself one day is really old news and you could have pointed out that without reading any books.

Nature is pretty capable killer and a random mutation can produce something as deadly as any human researcher. You can downplay it as much as you want, but denial doesn't make the problem disappear.
 
If the author of that book called virus's living pay no attention to any of his theories. They are inherently incorrect just cause he didn't no that virus's aren't alive.
 
If the author of that book called virus's living pay no attention to any of his theories. They are inherently incorrect just cause he didn't no that virus's aren't alive.

Nah, he actually examined this question in one chapter, concluding that it is hard to decide whether we should tread viruses as living things. I simplified it.

It evolves like living things, so I guess it should be treated as a form of life.

The definition I like the best:

"Virus is bad news wrapped in a protein." :)
 
Not made out of cells equals not a living thing. It can't respond to stimuli either.
 
Actually brain eating is a good way to spread disease.

And it is quite offal too.

Well I think it was actually cannibalism and eating brains that caused it, since they were eating humans brains and the Mad cow disease was caused by them eating Cow when they shouldn't be.
 
Back
Top Bottom