Do we need to?

[Strider]

In the last turn chat a debate came up.

The debates main question was:

Should leaders have to poll everything?

My opionion of this is:

No leaders should not be required to poll everything. We elect leaders for their skill in office. Yes if we require them to poll everything and hand major decisions to people who do not know what their doing we risk everything. Also it is a waste of the leaders skill. Yes I believe leaders should still post discussions & polls, but we DO NOT need to stop the turn chat for a decision the leader can make right then and their. The way it's looks to me like it a bunch of babies(council) running to the mothers(citizens).

Last demogame everything went fine.... Leaders did not have to poll every single thing(or were not forced to). Now look at us? The game is running slowly and we can't get anything done.

"We risk the annilation of are country if we take the power away from people who knows what their doing.... and give it to people who don't have a clue" --George Washington

 

[Chieftess]

Strider, you should put that quote in your sig.

 

[Strider]

Originally posted by Chieftess
Strider, you should put that quote in your sig.

I already have one about going insanee and my hatred for the quorums? Do you really want me to add this one?

 

[FortyJ]

Strider, you have absolutely hit this topic on the head! The leaders should be able to act with the authority vested in their respective offices.

Polling should always be an option if the leader feels it is necessary to take the matter to the citizens, but it should be at his or her discretion, with one exception - if the leader's decision is challenged by a majority of citizens during a turn chat, then it should be taken to the forums as an official poll. Otherwise, I say let our leaders lead!

 

[Strider]

Originally posted by FortyJ
Strider, you have absolutely hit this topic on the head! The leaders should be able to act with the authority vested in their respective offices.

Polling should always be an option if the leader feels it is necessary to take the matter to the citizens, but it should be at his or her discretion, with one exception - if the leader's decision is challenged by a majority of citizens during a turn chat, then it should be taken to the forums as an official poll. Otherwise, I say let our leaders lead!

Exatly.... A style I have always used is putting up informational polls then using their results to make my decisions. Yet during this game I am being yelled at about the poll not reaching qourums etc.

 

[donsig]

Umm, no, leaders don't have to poll everything but some decisions - like where to build a city - should definately be polled.

I DO NOT support the idea that leaders be allowed to run amok doing what the please unless a majority of the citizens at the turn chat oppose the leader. We must base our choices on the will of all our citizens not just those at the turn chat!

Further more, posting discussions and even polls and then doing what you want despite the results is not responsible leadership. We are currrently researching literature instead of polytheism despite and FNSD poll that showed more citizens wanted the latter researched.

 

[Strider]

Originally posted by donsig
Umm, no, leaders don't have to poll everything but some decisions - like where to build a city - should definately be polled.

I DO NOT support the idea that leaders be allowed to run amok doing what the please unless a majority of the citizens at the turn chat oppose the leader. We must base our choices on the will of all our citizens not just those at the turn chat!

Further more, posting discussions and even polls and then doing what you want despite the results is not responsible leadership. We are currrently researching literature instead of polytheism despite and FNSD poll that showed more citizens wanted the latter researched.

No.... The majority of the Citizens were in favor of lit.... If you did not hear me I said my style is to post polls (not the s) and use their information to make my decision. I did not only use the one single poll in my decision donsig....

Also donsig.... I am not suggesting the leader's run amok.... I am saying that we elected them for their skill in handling those affairs.... We had to cut off a turn chat, because they would not let a leader make a decision. During the first demogame we would discuss it and come to a conclusion. Now we have to run to the citizens like little babies!

We are not little kids (or well... uh... ignore that ) we can handle the problems by ourself.

 

[Eklektikos]

Why is this even an issue? Of course leaders don't have to poll on every last little decision they make - but where major issues such as city placement are concerned, polling really is a must.

You say that leaders should just be allowed to go off and do the job they're good at without necessarily having to take the will of the people into account, but that is a daft way to run a demogame. It implies that the only time the citizens have real power is at election time, and that inbetween elections they might as well shut up and put up. Where is the fun in that for the citizenry?

I know you did not say this in as many words, but it seems to me to be the logical conclusion of the style of leadership you appear to be advocating.

I have always seen the role of Leaders to be that of leading discussion. If you have a grand plan then stick up a proposal well in advance and then follow the polling standards for a binding poll, all of which exist for very good reasons. Discuss & poll on it and you can then use that mandate to pull other departments into line, and silence individual voices of dissent on the topic. On the other hand if you try to make major decisions unilaterally, then you do stand a good chance of finding yourself frustrated at the last minute - and rightly so.

 

[Cyc]

I know it's tough being a Leader Strider, but you should re-read Eklektikos' sig. In the begining of Demogame 1 there was A LOT of discussion about the placement of cities and some turned into heated debates. This was before we had any rules. And there were a lot of mad people, and a lot of them left. So we made rules to try to please everyone and not leave anyone out. We specifically made rules not to exclude people like you, because you are a citizen and have concerns about how the game is run, too. We left plenty of room for the citizens to change any rules they didn't like. They just have to follow the rules to change them. It's all right there in the Constitution. If you don't want to pour over that, then people like Octavian X have offered to help with question and answer threads. Shaitan, eyrei, Bill, and Eklektikos have all tried to walk people through the legal Jungles of the Demogame. It's all right there. If you're not happy with some of the laws, please, change them for the better.

When I was Domestic Leader, I didn't poll when I needed to place a city because 1. most of the space had been taken already 2. there was plenty of discussion about the placing of cities. People pointed out with great detail to the Domestic Dept. where the wanted cities. My job as a Leader was fairly easy. Choose the most productive ones. I got no bad feed-back. I must have done OK. But it was at the end of the game, so it's different from this situation. I felt the same way in the begining of that game as you do in the begining of this game. Only in the opposite manner. That game was going too fast and the power structure was unbalanced. You claim this game is going too slow and is too Democratic. Well, do what I did and try to get the rules changed. It works.

By the way did you see TF's announcement above?
Thunderfall
Administrator


Registered: Oct 2000
Posts: 4590 Main Site Status Update (Oct 17, 2002 until Oct 24, 2002)
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Our host, Telefragged, is moving some servers to a different location so the main site is temporarily not accessible. Only the main site is affected this time. They plan to move forums around next Friday...

 

[Strider]

Originally posted by Cyc
I know it's tough being a Leader Strider, but you should re-read Eklektikos' sig. In the begining of Demogame 1 there was A LOT of discussion about the placement of cities and some turned into heated debates. This was before we had any rules. And there were a lot of mad people, and a lot of them left. So we made rules to try to please everyone and not leave anyone out. We specifically made rules not to exclude people like you, because you are a citizen and have concerns about how the game is run, too. We left plenty of room for the citizens to change any rules they didn't like. They just have to follow the rules to change them. It's all right there in the Constitution. If you don't want to pour over that, then people like Octavian X have offered to help with question and answer threads. Shaitan, eyrei, Bill, and Eklektikos have all tried to walk people through the legal Jungles of the Demogame. It's all right there. If you're not happy with some of the laws, please, change them for the better.

When I was Domestic Leader, I didn't poll when I needed to place a city because 1. most of the space had been taken already 2. there was plenty of discussion about the placing of cities. People pointed out with great detail to the Domestic Dept. where the wanted cities. My job as a Leader was fairly easy. Choose the most productive ones. I got no bad feed-back. I must have done OK. But it was at the end of the game, so it's different from this situation. I felt the same way in the begining of that game as you do in the begining of this game. Only in the opposite manner. That game was going too fast and the power structure was unbalanced. You claim this game is going too slow and is too Democratic. Well, do what I did and try to get the rules changed. It works.

By the way did you see TF's announcement above?
Thunderfall
Administrator


Registered: Oct 2000
Posts: 4590 Main Site Status Update (Oct 17, 2002 until Oct 24, 2002)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Our host, Telefragged, is moving some servers to a different location so the main site is temporarily not accessible. Only the main site is affected this time. They plan to move forums around next Friday...

I've tried to get the rules changed quite a few times, but yet our const. is so screwed up that you have to get atleast 19 people to vote in a poll (and guess what their are 24 people in the demogame....Only about 16 of them check the poll forum as all) I am trying to say that we do not need to poll everythig inside of the game. Most of the people at the T/C agreed we should use stucks instructions (even through he did not post a poll over it). We should have went with stucks instructions instead of stopping the T/C just to make one decision. Eyrei and all of them are complaining about the RPG taking all of the citizens.... That's probley because the RPG is fast paced.... While the actually Demogame is moving so slow everyone just lost interest.

 

[Octavian X]

I don't think I can make a statement that I can make a statement that I can agree with later on when someone reminds me I said it.

On one side, we elect leaders to make decisions for the citizenry. Otherwise, we would have total anarchy.

However, on the other side, it is the responsibility of leaders to make decisions that represent the will of the people. Throughout the Code of Laws, under the descriptions of the jobs of the leaders, the words 'organize decisions' is used, rather than 'make decisions.' Therefore, it could be argued that every decision a leader makes needs to be based on the definite will of the people, represented in fact by polls.


On these thoughts, I take the middle ground. Smaller decisions need to be made by the leaders. Otherwise, their existance becomes redundant. Large decisions, such as matters involving city placemet, need to be throughly discussed and polled.

 

[Strider]

Originally posted by Octavian X
I don't think I can make a statement that I can make a statement that I can agree with later on when someone reminds me I said it.

On one side, we elect leaders to make decisions for the citizenry. Otherwise, we would have total anarchy.

However, on the other side, it is the responsibility of leaders to make decisions that represent the will of the people. Throughout the Code of Laws, under the descriptions of the jobs of the leaders, the words 'organize decisions' is used, rather than 'make decisions.' Therefore, it could be argued that every decision a leader makes needs to be based on the definite will of the people, represented in fact by polls.


On these thoughts, I take the middle ground. Smaller decisions need to be made by the leaders. Otherwise, their existance becomes redundant. Large decisions, such as matters involving city placemet, need to be throughly discussed and polled.

Which is my point.... Leaders should still poll major decisions, but it is slowing the game down making the leaders poll everything possible.

Also what I am mad about is that we had to stop the T/C and go run to the citizens for a decision that we could have made right then and their.... Most of the leaders where their.... They should be able to make a decision by themselves.... I mean this is like trying to get your parents respect here. We have to teach them where responsible enough to do stuff on our own.

The council has very, very little power. While the citizens have all of the power. If we continue with the way it is right now we will be in destruction soon. It's stupid to take the power away from more able people and give it to someone who doesn't have a single clue on how to do anything.

 

[FortyJ]

My previous comments may have been a bit rushed and not made clear enough....

Polling should be an instrument to be used by a responsible leader to get the pulse of the nation throughout his or her term in office. I do believe that there are some issues that require an official poll (city placement, border proposals, war declarations, etc...), but not every issue should require such action.

A leader, who has initiated relevant discussion and/or conducted an informational poll on a reversable issue should be able to take action during the turn chat provided his or her decision is not adequately challenged during that turn chat. If the citizenry decides the leader acted innapropriately, then an official poll could be started to overturn said decision.

I also agree with Eklektikos in that I too believe that the primary responsibility of our leaders is to lead the citizienry in discussions relevant to their department. However, if a poll fails to reach quorum, this should not prevent the leader from taking any action. One could argue that failure to meet quorum is the equivalent of a cumulative "Abstain" by the people.

Let the leaders lead as long as they do so responsibly. There will always be remedies for irresponsible leaders, and the other leaders and participants in the turn chat would never allow a leader to "run amok", enacting policies that run completely contradictory to the will of the people.

 

[Octavian X]

Originally posted by Strider
The council has very, very little power. While the citizens have all of the power.

The very point of democracy is a government where the citizens hold all the power. It was very approriate to stop the chat to allow for more discussion. For a democracy to run properly, the power needs to belong to the people.

Had just those in the turn chat single-handedly decide where to place Octavinium ( ), our government would have effectively turned into an oligarchy.

Smaller decisions, like those to trade contacts, that took place in a previous chat, wasn't as important. We were going to meet every other civ eventually, as well as learn those techs that whose trade was decided in the chat. However, the placement of a city could alter the entire course of the game!

Small decisions may be made by a few; major decision must be made by all.

 

[Strider]

Originally posted by Octavian X


The very point of democracy is a government where the citizens hold all the power. It was very approriate to stop the chat to allow for more discussion. For a democracy to run properly, the power needs to belong to the people.

Had just those in the turn chat single-handedly decide where to place Octavinium ( ), our government would have effectively turned into an oligarchy.

Smaller decisions, like those to trade contacts, that took place in a previous chat, wasn't as important. We were going to meet every other civ eventually, as well as learn those techs that whose trade was decided in the chat. However, the placement of a city could alter the entire course of the game!

Small decisions may be made by a few; major decision must be made by all.

Those in the Turn Chat are not only leaders, but Citizens to. They have thr right to express their opionion and fight for it. What ever happened to the office that was the voice of the people? Here's something that I would like done:

A department created to find out what the citizens want. The department leader then fights for what they want using his department power. (Their can be two of them.... Like old times)

In council votes each department gets a certain amount of votes.

Science: 1
Military: 1
Trade: 1
Domestic: 1
Culture: 1
Citizens: 2

This gives thie citizens alot of power, but still leaves the departments to themselves.

This would save the department leaders very much time in posting polls in discussions. If the citizens departments leader see's an important topic in debate in the science thread he posts a poll about it and urge's citizens to take part in that discussion. When the poll is complete he can post a short memo stating that the citizens want to do this.

 

[Cyc]

As normal, everyone's beliefs seem pretty much...right. I read Strider, Donsig, FortyJ, Eklektikos, and Octavian X as correct in their personal policies on how to run the game.

I feel the game is running too slow. This is because of the safegaurds we put in place to hear everyones point of view. I wanted to use the Penguin's instructions just to get the game rolling. I was willing to support a spot vote just to get the game rolling. Niether one happened, I lose (again). It's not a big deal. The game will be here tomorrow and the next day, too. So will I.

I feel that Leaders can make the everyday decisions without polling, too. That's there job. If we don't like what they do, we won't vote for them again. The main focus of a Leader should be the fulfillment of their duties, while keeping their constituents as happy as possible. If you're doing that, there should be no reason for debates such as this. If you can't do that, then maybe it's time to re-examine your methods.

I do feel that there are some key issues that do need to be polled, so that everyone can see the documented evidence of the current will of the people. I don't know how we do it, but we pretty much split the population down the middle on these issues. Maybe the key to solving this problem is persuassion those discussion. And I know we've talked some things to death. That's where polling comes in. VALID polls, put out by the LEADER that are binding and that cover all the requirements of a poll of this kind. Shoddy poll writing is not a sign of a good Leader. Niether is shuffling the responsibility of this poll writing to someone else (especially if they can't write polls either).

Anyway, I've talked enough here.

 

[Strider]

Cyc..... I know the Demogame will still be here (and I long ago gave up the thought of you leaving ), but many people are getting bored with how slow the game are going.... If it wasn't for the RPG the demogame forum would be about 9 people total.

 

[Cyc]

Yep, you're right. But it beats blazing through 4000 years in 3 weeks. At least we get to watch this game closely. Here's me during the begining of the last game - trust me, slow is better than fast.

And I really like your idea about bringing back the Citizen's Councilmembers. That was a great idea that slipped from my grasp when the New Constitution was written.

 

[Strider]

Originally posted by Cyc
Yep, you're right. But it beats blazing through 4000 years in 3 weeks. At least we get to watch this game closely. Here's me during the begining of the last game - trust me, slow is better than fast.

And I really like your idea about bringing back the Citizen's Councilmembers. That was a great idea that slipped from my grasp when the New Constitution was written.

Cyc: Slow isn't going to be better than fast if we lose everyone and can't get them back.

Also don't expect me to post reply too this thread for alittle while.... I'm going to start working on a whole new const. reforment....

*Remembers back in Demogame I Term IV he got so mad at the rules that he went as far as to start writing a whole new set*

 

[FionnMcCumhall]

Originally posted by Strider
Cyc..... I know the Demogame will still be here (and I long ago gave up the thought of you leaving ), but many people are getting bored with how slow the game are going.... If it wasn't for the RPG the demogame forum would be about 9 people total.

A point i had made in the chat room (look at quote). Henceforth why issues do not ger resolved, i wont play the rpg for reason as id rather concentrate on the actual game but since the rpg got into discussion and its fast past movement. The original idea of the rpg, and correct me if im worng was to play ALONG with the game. That sure isnt happening. We got knights when chivalry hasnt been discovered. We got a stock market, yet economics isnt discovered. We have banks and etc cuz it would be a long list if i kept nameing them. I say that the demogame and rpg work in tandem and then things wouldnt be slow, quit trying to rush things.
As for the snails pace of the game its good but yet bad. bad because no one has seemed to care enough about the issues and because the leaders seem to have the heads up in the rpg than the demogame. You were elected for the demogame and to lead the departments in the game, not the rpg. Wanna play the rpg and play the demogame? then the demogame comes first rpg second, not the other way around. Good, because we can review our decisions and possibly reverse them before too much damage is done. Maybe along with reforming the constitution we reform the rpg.