leaders we would like to see

[Leyrann]

Ever heard of what this "top influential state" is doing in Ukraine right now?

I do not see how that relates to whether or not they merit inclusion in Civilization?

 

[Lord Lakely]

okay, now I'm going to dump some Euro leaders in to this thread. I don't need all of them to be added, and I don't necessarily want only people that I'm going to list here... but I do find the following individuals interesting, and would make for good additions into the canon.

I'm going to group them geographically, with three suggestions each. Effectively I'd like no more than 1 leader per group in Civ Proper. Priority should be given to the non-Euro leaders at this point

Also no French suggestion because we have enough of those.

Balkanic: Hristo Botev (Poet, key figure of the Bulgarian Revolution), Skanderbeg (Albanian warlord and badass), Vlad Tepes (this game is PERFECT for Dracula's inclusion)
British: Benjamin Gladstone (time we get another high-profile PM into the game), Edward III (the best English King not yet featured in Civ), Godred Crovan (King of Man & The Isles. Supercool inclusion)
Celtic: Grainne O'Malley (Irish Pirate queen), Diviciacus (Gallic Druid), Cartimandua (Brethonic chieftainess, more interesting than Boudicca)
Dutch/Flemish: Baruch Spinoza (Dutch Philosopher during their Golden Age, with sepharidic roots), Godfrey of Bouillon (Flemish leader of the Crusade and briefly king of Outremer), Johan de Witt (Dutch Economist and PM, lynched by the mob for his reforms)
Germanic: Jakob Fugger (Probably the most influential banker not named Rothschild), Maria Theresa (We all know her), Martin Luther (Key Figure of the Protestant Reformation)
Hellenic: Alcibiades (Greek politician of dubious moral fiber), Leonidas (the legendary Spartan king), Plato (the Father of Democracy)
Iberian: El Cid (The most infamous general of the reconquista), Ferdinand of Aragon (Husband of Isabella, and a clever diplomat in his own right), Urraca the Reckless (Fascinating and underrated queen of Asturias)
Italic: Garibaldi (hero of the Italian unification), Leonardo da Vinci (the famous polymath), Matilda di Canossa (Tuscan duchess who laid the foundation for the Italian unification centuries later)
Nordic: Alfred Nobel (a great way to decouple the Nobel Prizes from Sweden's ability), Leif Eriksson (Viking and Explorer), Margrethe I (Queen of the Kalmar Union)
Roman: Anna Komnene (Historian and Daughter of emperor Alexios I), Herodotus (a flawed, but entertaining historian), Scipio Africanus (won the Punic Wars for Rome)
Slavic (non-Balkanic): Emilia Planer (Joan of Arc, but Polish), Jan Hus (Instigator of the Hussite rebellion, national hero of Czechia), St. Olga (unleash a flock of burning pigeons upon the HEATHENS)

One from each group AT MOST pls (we can accept 2 Brits, Germanics, Nordics, Romans and Hellenes, but that's not a high priority)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Wonderful list. The only possible changes I would make might be:
British: Disraeli instead of Gladstone. If we are going to have a 19th century PM, pick the one most full of peculiarities to throw into the game.

Hellenic: Kleopatra of Epirus. as I've posted before, the only woman officially in charge of a Greek state. And while I am second to no one in my desire to have Alcibiades in the game - the only person in history to make Machiavelli, Metternich and Tallyrand look forthright, upstanding and honest by comparison - Pythagoreas could be an even stranger inclusion: one of the few Greek 'natural philosophers' who also started a religion, so one of the few historical characters who could have a Religious - Scientific characteristic.
Plato's Republic was supposed to be run by a specially-trained group: it was not Democracy he espoused, but Aristocracy. Cleisthenes is the real classical Greek "father of Democracy", but Solon of Athens started the ball rolling and is a more interesting character.

Roman - Herodotus was Greek, not Roman. On the other hand, Cicero is another fascinating character, a politician, lawyer, writer who ran afoul of the Imperial fist. Pliny, either the Elder or the Younger, would also be good, and there is a recent biography that delves pretty deeply into the Younger and his writings and influence. Pliny the Elder could also be related directly to Natural Wonders, since he died in the Vesuvius eruption!

 

[Leyrann]

Pliny the Elder could also be related directly to Natural Wonders, since he died in the Vesuvius eruption!

It's debatable whether he died due to the eruption, though. Pliny the Younger blames it on toxic fumes, but based on his writing, no one else nearby was affected. I believe the preferred hypothesis is actually that Pliny the Elder died from a heart attack caused by the stress surrounding the evacuation efforts, as he was already getting on in age.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Roman - Herodotus was Greek, not Roman. On the other hand, Cicero is another fascinating character, a politician, lawyer, writer who ran afoul of the Imperial fist. Pliny, either the Elder or the Younger, would also be good, and there is a recent biography that delves pretty deeply into the Younger and his writings and influence. Pliny the Elder could also be related directly to Natural Wonders, since he died in the Vesuvius eruption!

Cicero would work. Or we could go for Sallust, who will give Civ6 Alexander a run for his money for the dickiest Civ leader to ever dick around.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

It's debatable whether he died due to the eruption, though. Pliny the Younger blames it on toxic fumes, but based on his writing, no one else nearby was affected. I believe the preferred hypothesis is actually that Pliny the Elder died from a heart attack caused by the stress surrounding the evacuation efforts, as he was already getting on in age.

I agree that heart attack was the most likely immediate cause: that was dfagnosed as far back as 1856. Pliny the Elder (Plinius Secundus), according to Pliny the Younger, his nephew, was 56 when he died, and also overweight by modern standards and suffered from a 'respiratory condition' which has been tentatively diagnosed as asthma. That makes a volcanic event classified as a VEI (Volcanic Explosivity Index) 5, producing over 1 cubic kilometer of ejected matter from the volcano, a very, very unhealthy place for him to be even if he didn't get hit by a flying boulder or buried under half a ton of ash.

 

[RedCourtJester]

okay, now I'm going to dump some Euro leaders in to this thread. I don't need all of them to be added, and I don't necessarily want only people that I'm going to list here... but I do find the following individuals interesting, and would make for good additions into the canon.

I'm going to group them geographically, with three suggestions each. Effectively I'd like no more than 1 leader per group in Civ Proper. Priority should be given to the non-Euro leaders at this point

Also no French suggestion because we have enough of those.

Balkanic: Hristo Botev (Poet, key figure of the Bulgarian Revolution), Skanderbeg (Albanian warlord and badass), Vlad Tepes (this game is PERFECT for Dracula's inclusion)
British: Benjamin Gladstone (time we get another high-profile PM into the game), Edward III (the best English King not yet featured in Civ), Godred Crovan (King of Man & The Isles. Supercool inclusion)
Celtic: Grainne O'Malley (Irish Pirate queen), Diviciacus (Gallic Druid), Cartimandua (Brethonic chieftainess, more interesting than Boudicca)
Dutch/Flemish: Baruch Spinoza (Dutch Philosopher during their Golden Age, with sepharidic roots), Godfrey of Bouillon (Flemish leader of the Crusade and briefly king of Outremer), Johan de Witt (Dutch Economist and PM, lynched by the mob for his reforms)
Germanic: Jakob Fugger (Probably the most influential banker not named Rothschild), Maria Theresa (We all know her), Martin Luther (Key Figure of the Protestant Reformation)
Hellenic: Alcibiades (Greek politician of dubious moral fiber), Leonidas (the legendary Spartan king), Plato (the Father of Democracy)
Iberian: El Cid (The most infamous general of the reconquista), Ferdinand of Aragon (Husband of Isabella, and a clever diplomat in his own right), Urraca the Reckless (Fascinating and underrated queen of Asturias)
Italic: Garibaldi (hero of the Italian unification), Leonardo da Vinci (the famous polymath), Matilda di Canossa (Tuscan duchess who laid the foundation for the Italian unification centuries later)
Nordic: Alfred Nobel (a great way to decouple the Nobel Prizes from Sweden's ability), Leif Eriksson (Viking and Explorer), Margrethe I (Queen of the Kalmar Union)
Roman: Anna Komnene (Historian and Daughter of emperor Alexios I), Herodotus (a flawed, but entertaining historian), Scipio Africanus (won the Punic Wars for Rome)
Slavic (non-Balkanic): Emilia Planer (Joan of Arc, but Polish), Jan Hus (Instigator of the Hussite rebellion, national hero of Czechia), St. Olga (unleash a flock of burning pigeons upon the HEATHENS)

One from each group AT MOST pls (we can accept 2 Brits, Germanics, Nordics, Romans and Hellenes, but that's not a high priority)

Nevermind AT MOST, I want that full Nordic suite, and nothing more or less: one antiquity Norse, one exploration Dane, one modern Swede, perfect balance. I would also accept Cnut to validate the Norman -> Britain path, but he is a distant 4th.

Also I am still gunning for Olga. Just a really good unifying figure of Slavic, Kievan Rus', and Russian heritage (and could even bridge the gap from Byzantium to Russia in the absence of Kievan Rus', depending on implementation). I worry that her, Catherine, and hypothetical additions of Anna Komemne/Irene and a return of Tamar would really crowd out that eastern Europe region with "difficult women," but I kind of don't care.

Balkans will be interesting. I am betting on exploration Bulgaria civ (and hopefully a return of a Venice civ), but good odds at Skanderberg and/or Dusan being leader options instead of Simeon.

 

[notNamed]

okay, now I'm going to dump some Euro leaders in to this thread. I don't need all of them to be added, and I don't necessarily want only people that I'm going to list here... but I do find the following individuals interesting, and would make for good additions into the canon.

I'm going to group them geographically, with three suggestions each. Effectively I'd like no more than 1 leader per group in Civ Proper. Priority should be given to the non-Euro leaders at this point

Also no French suggestion because we have enough of those.

Germanic: Jakob Fugger (Probably the most influential banker not named Rothschild), Maria Theresa (We all know her), Martin Luther (Key Figure of the Protestant Reformation)

Slavic (non-Balkanic): Emilia Planer (Joan of Arc, but Polish), Jan Hus (Instigator of the Hussite rebellion, national hero of Czechia), St. Olga (unleash a flock of burning pigeons upon the HEATHENS)

Technically "Germanic" Europe already has Frederick, but assuming Luther got in, Jan Hus would be kinda superfluous.
Why not swap him for Commenius (Jan Amos Komenský)? "The Teacher of Nations" as the moniker goes. He was a Moravian, born right on the Hungarian (i.e. later Slovakian) border, got a story spanning wider Europe, touches on the Habsburg counter-reformation, his focus is that of education and pedagogy. Which is honestly a much more interesting pedigree than than the "Oh yeah, Luther: beta version" which Jan Hus would inevitably be made into.

And he's still got plenty of that nationalist recognition, no need to worry there.

 

[RedCourtJester]

Technically "Germanic" Europe already has Frederick, but assuming Luther got in, Jan Hus would be kinda superfluous.
Why not swap him for Commenius (Jan Amos Komenský)? "The Teacher of Nations" as the moniker goes. He was a Moravian, born right on the Hungarian (i.e. later Slovakian) border, got a story spanning wider Europe, touches on the Habsburg counter-reformation, his focus is that of education and pedagogy. Which is honestly a much more interesting pedigree than than the "Oh yeah, Luther: beta version" which Jan Hus would inevitably be made into.

And he's still got plenty of that nationalist recognition, no need to worry there.

I could see it happening, but I hope we don't get Luther. Not every religious movement and schism needs a leader representing it in civ, certainly not the origination of the lunacy that is American protestantism.

 

[Siptah]

I think Luther could be an interesting leader, historically and personally.

But if we get a German leader of that time, why not the so-called Man of the Millennium himself? Gutenberg can be a science as well as an economic leader, and have culture or production bonuses, a unique celebration etc. Even if his personal significance might be overemphasized in contrast to, e.g., Peter Schöffer, he stands for a connection between technology, craftsmanship, aesthetics, and science that has rare parallels (Leonardo comes to mind as well).

 

[RedCourtJester]

I think Luther could be an interesting leader, historically and personally.

But if we get a German leader of that time, why not the so-called Man of the Millennium himself? Guttenberg can be a science as well as an economic leader, and have culture or production bonuses, a unique celebration etc. Even if his personal significance might be overemphasized in contrast to, e.g., Peter Schöffer, he stands for a connection between technology, craftsmanship, aesthetics, and science that has rare parallels (Leonardo comes to mind as well).

So far, aside from maybe Rizal, I think most of these non-political leaders could still be argued to have been "leaders" of social/cultural movements in some way (and even Rizal was post-mortem). Which is why it would not surprise me to see Luther, much as I dislike the notion. I could also see Nobel or Da Vinci for those reasons. But it's difficult to think of Gutenberg as any sort of "figurehead" of a movement in the same sense. Or maybe he was, in much the same sense as Luther, as he mostly cared about printing Bibles. Ew.

I would much rather have Marx.

 

[TheSpaceCowboy]

I could see it happening, but I hope we don't get Luther. Not every religious movement and schism needs a leader representing it in civ, certainly not the origination of the lunacy that is American protestantism.

First of all, very religiously tolerant of you.

Secondly, your two claims are contradictory. On the one hand you imply that Luther is merely the leader of Lutheranism, far from the biggest denomination worldwide. But immediately after you imply (correctly) that Luther started Protestantism as a whole (including many non-Lutheran denominations who would vehemently disagree with his theology).

Thirdly, Luther is not merely a religious figure. His translation of the Bible into German shaped the language more profoundly than the works of Shakespeare influenced English

 

[Leyrann]

So far, aside from maybe Rizal, I think most of these non-political leaders could still be argued to have been "leaders" of social/cultural movements in some way (and even Rizal was post-mortem). Which is why it would not surprise me to see Luther, much as I dislike the notion. I could also see Nobel or Da Vinci for those reasons. But it's difficult to think of Gutenberg as any sort of "figurehead" of a movement in the same sense. Or maybe he was, in much the same sense as Luther, as he mostly cared about printing Bibles. Ew.

I would much rather have Marx.

I would argue that someone like Luther is a good choice for precisely the same reasons that Marx is.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Technically "Germanic" Europe already has Frederick, but assuming Luther got in, Jan Hus would be kinda superfluous.
Why not swap him for Commenius (Jan Amos Komenský)? "The Teacher of Nations" as the moniker goes. He was a Moravian, born right on the Hungarian (i.e. later Slovakian) border, got a story spanning wider Europe, touches on the Habsburg counter-reformation, his focus is that of education and pedagogy. Which is honestly a much more interesting pedigree than than the "Oh yeah, Luther: beta version" which Jan Hus would inevitably be made into.

And he's still got plenty of that nationalist recognition, no need to worry there.

Again, I don't want all of the suggestions, I made. A few is more than enough for me.

The second germanic leader (technically third because Charlemagne) would be the final addition from that group, and I personally prefer Maria Theresa. For similar leaders, I'd suggest looking at other regions in Europe or elsewhere.

And clearly Hus and Luther have the same niche - one of them is fine. Both? Not so much. (#TeamHus)

Nevermind AT MOST, I want that full Nordic suite, and nothing more or less: one antiquity Norse, one exploration Dane, one modern Swede, perfect balance. I would also accept Cnut to validate the Norman -> Britain path, but he is a distant 4th.

Also I am still gunning for Olga. Just a really good unifying figure of Slavic, Kievan Rus', and Russian heritage (and could even bridge the gap from Byzantium to Russia in the absence of Kievan Rus', depending on implementation). I worry that her, Catherine, and hypothetical additions of Anna Komemne/Irene and a return of Tamar would really crowd out that eastern Europe region with "difficult women," but I kind of don't care.

Balkans will be interesting. I am betting on exploration Bulgaria civ (and hopefully a return of a Venice civ), but good odds at Skanderberg and/or Dusan being leader options instead of Simeon.

Oh I absolutely would not mind if all three of the Scandi suggestions I made, were added to the game. But there is already a huge variation of European leaders as is. The other regions of the world also deserve their place in the sun, so if you can replace one with an equivalent from somewhere else, let's go for that.

Olga absolutely isn't griefed by Catherine's inclusion. Two completely different personalities if ever there were, and Olga herself is very unique in her niche (temperamental, vindictive, zealous but at the same time highly cunning and charming enough to lull her targets into a false sense of security.)

The Balkans kind of deserve their own little DLC, with Dacia (A) / Bulgaria (E) / Serbia (M) as the Civs, and Vlad Tepes & Skanderbeg as the leaders.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Welcome to civfanatics!

Here’s an inclusive and non-complete list of my leader cast wants—some are probably mutually exclusive with others in the list but nonetheless:

Lili’uokalani
Rajendra Chola
Akbar the Great
Christian X of Denmark
Alexander Fleming/Lord Kelvin/Joseph Lister/Alexander Graham Bell/other British/Scottish scientists
Karl Marx
Ho Chi Minh
Thomas Sankara
Vladimir Lenin
Empress Irene of Athens (would make a good contrast with Charlemagne)
Mehmed II
Charles V (Holy Roman Empire/Spain)
Barboncito
Cyrus the Great (I’m just partial to him)
Ashurbanipal
Empress Matilda (England)
Brian Boru
Cnut the Great
Matilda of Tuscany
Oliver Wilde
Grace O’Malley
Mary, Queen of Scots
Tupac Amaru II
Sepe Tiraju
Chief Seattle
Max Weber
Touissant L’ouverture
Bernardo O’Higgins
Bayinnaung
Kahina (Berber Queen)

 

[Thenewwwguy]

has he never been in civ? we really should have more Habsburg presence in the game considering how important they were, especially vis a vis their relations with Ottomans, France.

it’s shocking. he would’ve been a layup choice for civ 7 considering the new civ switching system, and the fact isabella is done to death

I think Henry Avery could be a fun choice for a non-sovereign leader. I agree Sun Tzu would also be an inspired choice, and I'd love to see Adam Smith too.

smith and marx in a economic minds pack would be fun

 

[Australopithecine]

Since we have navigable rivers, I would love to have Viking longboats raiding along them

I would therefore love a Nordic Civ or the North Sea Empire along with the Normans, and eventually England

In order of personal preference, Cnut > Sweyn Forkbeard > Rollo.

 

[agamemnon_of_the-bronze_]

it’s shocking. he would’ve been a layup choice for civ 7 considering the new civ switching system, and the fact isabella is done to death

smith and marx in a economic minds pack would be fun

i almost can't think of a better leader for Civ 7 than Charles V

 

[agamemnon_of_the-bronze_]

Since we have navigable rivers, I would love to have Viking longboats raiding along them

I would therefore love a Nordic Civ or the North Sea Empire along with the Normans, and eventually England

In order of personal preference, Cnut > Sweyn Forkbeard > Rollo.

with navigable rivers viking civs are pretty much guaranteed. they probably held them back because they will make a very juicy DLC bone to throw to the dogs

 

[agamemnon_of_the-bronze_]

Wonderful list. The only possible changes I would make might be:
British: Disraeli instead of Gladstone. If we are going to have a 19th century PM, pick the one most full of peculiarities to throw into the game.

Hellenic: Kleopatra of Epirus. as I've posted before, the only woman officially in charge of a Greek state. And while I am second to no one in my desire to have Alcibiades in the game - the only person in history to make Machiavelli, Metternich and Tallyrand look forthright, upstanding and honest by comparison - Pythagoreas could be an even stranger inclusion: one of the few Greek 'natural philosophers' who also started a religion, so one of the few historical characters who could have a Religious - Scientific characteristic.
Plato's Republic was supposed to be run by a specially-trained group: it was not Democracy he espoused, but Aristocracy. Cleisthenes is the real classical Greek "father of Democracy", but Solon of Athens started the ball rolling and is a more interesting character.

Roman - Herodotus was Greek, not Roman. On the other hand, Cicero is another fascinating character, a politician, lawyer, writer who ran afoul of the Imperial fist. Pliny, either the Elder or the Younger, would also be good, and there is a recent biography that delves pretty deeply into the Younger and his writings and influence. Pliny the Elder could also be related directly to Natural Wonders, since he died in the Vesuvius eruption!

love the idea of a british PM