Do you ever build workshops?

[WarKirby]

I've found myself thinking about it. What purpose does the workshop improvement really serve?

Wind/water/lumbermills are generally better options for getting production, depending on the surroundings. I find that maps where I don't have any hills, forests, OR rivers near almost every city, are very rare. Workshops don't give a lot of production, and they have the crippling -1 penalty, which makes it almost impossible for them to break even, unless they're built in ancient forests by elven civs, or on floodplains (is that even possible?)

As I recall, the yield of workshops is as follows

+1
+1 with Construction (early)
+1 with Guilds (tech, not civic. VERY late)
-1

so a grand total of +3 and -1

I'm thinking of removing the -1 food. Food is generally the most valuable resource there is, and I can't think of any other normal improvements that have penalties. Why SHOULD workshops have a food penalty? What do they represent?

My idea, would be that they're an area of land set aside for local craftsmen, to work in peace, build things, sell their wares, etc. Why would it be more disruptive to food production than a mining operation, or a large quarry?

Would it also make sense for them to have some benefit from the Industry civic? +1 and +1 ? or would this be too powerful?

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I basically build them on tundras, since there nothing else is buildable. Sometimes I build them on plains(very rarerly) if I want extra production for this city.
I guess the -1 goes like the -1 for farms(with agrarianism).
Now, if it could be build on desert/snow, perhaps I would use it more...

 

[ICanHasName?]

I think they are there so A) you can turn any city into a production city, if you really want to, and B) so that you can do something with flat garbage tiles like tundra.

Kind of like a better then nothing improvement.

Edit: and yea, once they have all their upgrades they are a good deal.

 

[Sephi]

I build quite a decent number of workshops when I play scions.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I build quite a decent number of workshops when I play scions.

Good point! And the Infernals should benefit a lot by them, too.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

they're nice in base FFH after the tweaks patch R done to improvements, although they only become really worthwhile after you got the guilds tech.. I think those changes would be good for FF too ( it's great to have lumbermills early and windmills are pretty good ) , but I don't want watermills to get axed

 

[Aroldo]

More or less what Gekko says. The recent changes in FFH turned workshops into a fair deal.

 

[WarKirby]

What are the recent changes ? can someone summarise?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

35. Archery gives +50% chop production.
36. Lumbermills moved form Iron Working to Archery.
37. Workshops moved from Smelting to Construction, given +1 commerce, the +1 hammer moved from Construction to Smelting, given +2 hammer at Guilds.
38. Watermills removed.
39. Windmills given +1 hammer.

 

[Iceciro]

Don't remove my watermills if you follow through with the FFH stuff though >_>

 

[WarKirby]

I like watermills. They give +3 and +3 once you get industry. Really good. I build them a lot.

 

[Vehem]

I like watermills. They give +3 and +3 once you get industry. Really good. I build them a lot.

That's the main difference I think - we had Industry already, so not sure which of the changes I'll want to make from base FfH. The future of improvements isn't certain - they may go back to requiring techs to build or they may stay as they are. Xienwolf is going to look at the AI for improvements and teching in anycase, so the AI should get smarter about doing it whichever way we decide upon.

 

[WarKirby]

I'd like to mention then, that I really like the current system of doing slow builds without the tech. I'd really like to keep it, even if it's only kept for human players

 

[Endovior]

I'd be a fan of upgrading workshops as in FFH; otherwise, they don't have much use, barring the fallow trait.

Neutral as regards watermills; I find that I tend to prefer either lumbermills or towns on my rivers, instead.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I use them only as a Fallow civ

 

[Breez]

I'd like to mention then, that I really like the current system of doing slow builds without the tech. I'd really like to keep it, even if it's only kept for human players

I agree. Is it possible to let the AI build any improvement it wants at normal speed, with out requiring any tech for it, sort of like how they can build units with out the pre-req building?

 

[vivictius]

I've never built workshops either, though I have to agree with Warkirby, watermills are great, I'm not sure why Kael removed them in normal.

 

[zup]

Short answer: no.

If I play a fallow civ, I just spam every flatland full of cottages. Engineers/priests take care of hammers.

If I play a normal civ (eats food) I will eventually go all farms to run as many specialists as possible. Generally I feel a massive spam of gpp is the most useful strategy in this game. With proper wonders and civics, specialists usually give higher total yields than anyone working a tile, barring maybe riverside enclaves. The patch G 'feature' of Masters' Hall is not too cool though as no other city will pop gp anymore.

 

[Quetz]

That's the main difference I think - we had Industry already, so not sure which of the changes I'll want to make from base FfH. The future of improvements isn't certain - they may go back to requiring techs to build or they may stay as they are. Xienwolf is going to look at the AI for improvements and teching in anycase, so the AI should get smarter about doing it whichever way we decide upon.

Just a random suggestion: I like the no-tech improvements as an AI booster. However as has been noted elsewhere they tend to build really long ones (they always seem to prefer lumbermills even when mines are clearly better, for one thing, even if they dont have the LM tech) Anyways, my suggestion was just give the AI a signifigant boost in improvement build time. Like, 1/2 the player. At least above a certain difficulty level.