Do you find Chinese UA boring?

[Krajzen]

The question is simple. Do you find Art of War boring, uninteresting, or simply not fitting Chinese Civilization? Or maybe it is cool and immersive because of, you know, Sun Tzu?

Yes I KNOW it is useful, but personally I find this UA to be one of the most uninteresting in game - it doesn't require you to change strategy, you simply have more generals - so we surprisingly have China, one of the biggest and most advanced civilizations in the history, which was never warmongering beast, with purely warmongering bonus in Civ5

Chinese Unique Features don't change the way you play like for example Aztec/Maya/Zulu/Arabia/Polynesia/Poland/Spanish/hell even American units, building and abilities. You simply have percent bonus for army, few more gold in the beginning and double shooting crossbowman - all of that is really strong, but... Boring.

Or not?


Also, I am going to try modding Chinese UA and changing it into something more interesting. My ideas include:
- Tradition tree opened right from the beginning (IMHO fits perfectly, but I am not sure if it is enough)
- +1 science from plantations (silk, right?)
- some kind of bonus from rivers
- ...more sophisticated ability which would require me to mod in lua, for example something allowing China to grow both tall and wide (in exchange for some penalty?).
What do you think?

 

[klaskeren]

The UA is very strong, i like it very much in combo with their UU

 

[zukenft]

china is a warmongering beast IRL. it's just that they mostly fought against themselves. remember the Three Kingdoms?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I wouldn't call the Civ V version of China a pure warmonger, they have Paper Makers which are useful in peace. However, I do find the UA to be rather uninteresting as I tend to promote international accord rather than warfare.

 

[Bulldog Bats]

I like China in general, whether for war-mongering or defensive/passive play. With the cho-ku-nos on your border, you can knock of invaders much easier. If I can reach them without being invaded, the game is mine, since you get a huge and immedate boost to your military without costing additional upkeep.

The papermaker does help you catch up early in science, but I would not mind a nerf to keep it relevant in later play.

 

[LoneRebel]

Oh, China wasn't as peaceful as they make themselves out to be, to be honest. Ask any Korean or Vietnamese.

 

[Kizo]

The only reservation I have about China is that I still miss the old pre-nerf Paper Maker. It was a deserved nerf, but still.

On the topic of whether the UA is appropriate, I've always preferred the idea of China being represented by more than just war, but the combination of superior great generals and Chu-ko-nu is effective, at least.

 

[Asklepios]

I find China as a civ effective and playable, but I definitely find the UA kind of dull. While Great Generals are great fun, it doesn't feel rewarding to have them popping slightly more often, even if mechanically its quite a useful thing.

All in all, I tend to enjoy civs where the benefit is visible and feels powerful, regardless of whether it actually is. Sometimes, of course the UAs feel powerful because they are powerful - Poland and Babylon spring to mind. Sometimes they just feel satisfying even if they're not the strongest UAs in the game. A free tech from Assyria's conquests always feels good. Byzantium's bonus belief may be too conditional on random factors to be viable in high level games, but it feels like a fun tangible bonus. Even Germany's Furor Teutonicus clicks that lovely positive feedback trigger in the brain.

But China's ability feels too passive, too steady and too abstract to be satisfying or interesting. I think psychologically, intermittent positive feedback always feels a lot better than steady positive gain. For the same reason, India feels boring too. The reduced unhappiness might be useful, but it doesn't feel directly fun.

 

[Loucypher]

China's UA is a typical "Vanilla" kind of UA. It's there, you know it does its work, but you don't need to do anything special to get it or work it. It could've used a bit more refinement, I suppose.

 

[j51]

It's both boring, and while not inappropriate (China does have an incredibly bloody history), it's not the best fit perhaps. I always thought China should have Korea's UA. In my mod I did just that and named it "Scholar-Officials." Boom! (...with some slight modifications for balance and variety.)

 

[Winsling]

China's strength and weakness is that it makes you better at stuff you want to do anyways. If you had a perfectly generic civ, you want libraries in all your cities; you want to build some ranged units for defense, and conquer with them if it's favorable; you want to escort your army with generals, and citadel bomb important tiles. China's abilities line up perfectly with this plan. It doesn't make you play any different than the standard - unlike Venice - it just makes you better at it.

 

[Krajzen]

Yeah China had bloody history, but
a) These guys mostly massacred themselves lol: / )
b) Chinese Civ exists for over 3 000 years, and in their most expansive times they conquered western giant wastelands, Manchuria (in late dynasties), Korea (short period of time), Vietnam (partially), Tibet (not always). That's all. Compare that to European colonial empires, Arabs, Rome, obviously Mongolia or Aztec - all these states were much more expansive. There is one interesting theory, that China didn't expand because it simply didn't have to - if you are mentally and really the most powerful state in the world, having more problems with internal chaos than outside enemies (excepting Mongolia, but these guys screwed the entire humanity ), also with very traditional ideology - why bother warmongering?

I don't think they should have bonus to war, especially that boring

I have one idea for alternate Chinese ability and I will create mod like that:

Mandate of Heaven:
Strenght of great generals is doubled (as it was), each time China settles new city or gains 10 citizen in the old ones Empire receives culture and science boost. Rebels appear just when happiness drops below zero, and Empire has -20% strenght against barbarians.

This unique ability is:
a) Immersive - Mandate of Heaven is very unique and interesting Chinese idea, very important in their history
b) Allows on many strategies (tall vs wide)
c) Is dynamic
d) To balance science/culture boost, as you see rebels appear easier and China is weaker against barbs. IMHO that makes perfect sense - if happiness drops below 0, it means that Emperor has lost Mandate and his people can revolt - this would reflect often bloody uprisings in Chinese history. Also, Chinese armies suffered many defeats both from rebels and "barbarians" (western hordes, Manchu, Mongols and so on )
What do you think about it?

 

[vibe96]

Agree. Also, doesn't China have a grassland/river start bias? I always seem to have a good game with them.

 

[cairnsy44]

I have one idea for alternate Chinese ability and I will create mod like that:

Mandate of Heaven:
Strenght of great generals is doubled (as it was), each time China settles new city or gains 10 citizen in the old ones Empire receives culture and science boost. Rebels appear just when happiness drops below zero, and Empire has -20% strenght against barbarians.

This unique ability is:
a) Immersive - Mandate of Heaven is very unique and interesting Chinese idea, very important in their history
b) Allows on many strategies (tall vs wide)
c) Is dynamic
d) To balance science/culture boost, as you see rebels appear easier and China is weaker against barbs. IMHO that makes perfect sense - if happiness drops below 0, it means that Emperor has lost Mandate and his people can revolt - this would reflect often bloody uprisings in Chinese history. Also, Chinese armies suffered many defeats both from rebels and "barbarians" (western hordes, Manchu, Mongols and so on )
What do you think about it?

I like that! Having some negative traits for civs isn't a bad idea for variety...

 

[Tyrus]

Remind me again, how does Poland's UA "change the way you play?"

If we are talking bland UAs, I can't bring myself to play Poland. I just unlock a crazy amount of policies, whether I want to or not, and that's that.

China, while perhaps a bit on the stale side, at least points you in a direction with its UA. Choosing where to make Citadels, when to invade or not, at least it requires some involvement.

My main problem with China is that the Chu-Ko-Nu is kind of boring to me. I prefer either early or late-game warmongering, and ranged units are a bit OP in BNW and easy to use, so OP Medieval X-bows are just a dry UU to me.

 

[redwings1340]

China is a fantastic warmonger with a nice early science/gold boost. It's nice. I think it could be more interesting to fit a bit more of China's uniqueness and huge importance to world history in to it, but if I were changing UAs, I would probably change some others first.

 

[Flyboy13]

I suppose it is "boring" given that I don't choose China too much. I like the Mandate of Heaven idea mentioned above, reminds me of the social policy for Rome in the Fall of Rome scenario.

 

[iconocast]

nothing boreing about haveing a million GG and then makeing ur own great wall out of them

 

[King Coltrane]

heres an idea:

UA: Mandate of Heaven: at the start of each era, you can pick a focus (military, science, growth, happiness, gold, trade, diplomacy, faith, etc) and your values for that field will be doubled until you enter the next era. each focus can be chosen only once. (values include military units a/d percent modifiers)

i think this would be really fun, add variety, and represent the many ways that china has manifested itself over its history.

some other fun ideas for chinas other uniques:

UI: Grand Canal: can be built on non-river tiles between 2 non-connecting rivers. this UI provides food/production/gold equal to the total's of each connected river/3 PER UI. so if river 1 has 4 tiles, that in total produce 8 food and 3 production, while river 2 has 6 tiles that produce 14 food and 6 production, each UI linking these rivers would provide 7 food and 3 production. and if there are 3 tiles between rivers, you can build this UI 3 times. and the benefits for each improvement dont activate until all linking UI's are completed. its powerful, but not OP and its situational anyway.

UB: Drum Tower: replaces walls; +2 happiness.