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[GS] Do you like that all Strategic resource deposits give them same amount?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Sostratus, Jul 22, 2019.

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Do you prefer the strategic resource extraction of civ5 or civ6?

  1. Civ 6. Fixed 2(material) or 3(fuel) for all deposits.

    16 vote(s)
    24.6%
  2. Civ 5. A mix of small deposits (2) and large ones (6-8.)

    49 vote(s)
    75.4%
  1. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    In the game i reference with the screengrab in the OP, I had a total of 12 oil deposits. And fully 5 of them were from that one city. Let me dig out that save and mention some other resource levels...
    So excluding that colony, I have 7 oil, 4 coal, 4 aluminum, 1 uranium deposit. Here's my empire area (huge map!)
    Spoiler :

    upload_2019-7-25_14-28-48.png

    Not exactly a small empire. 3 of my oil wells are even in 2 tundra colonies I founded for exactly that purpose; of the remaining 4, two are offshore near my capital bay area and two in tundra in Ra-Kedet, of course a British Mandate territory... Also, yes, the small neck on my continent is indeed crossed by the panama canal. I'm no uncultured philistine.
    So for all my coastline and the large desert, no oil. Tundra: 10. Thanks to the resource card and corporate libertarianism, I have a budget of 60 oil! (The RND bonus stockpile space also means I have nearly 1000 resource storage.) I can imagine being Canada in this map. Laurier, the Oiligarch.
    I think, as I mentioned, we don't necessarily want tons of deposits littering the map taking up district space; but there does still seem to be either poor distribution or just a lack of communication on where resources spawn.
    Extremely esoteric example, but in terms of map gen, order matters; at one point in Minecraft they added some new varieties of stone. This was well and good, but because of where it was placed in the generation, it seemed to have the effect of greatly reducing the rate of finding certain resources that could only spawn in regular stone (as opposed to the new varieties.) Likewise, perhaps the strategic resource distribution code is fine, but other processes are creating issues with what would otherwise be a good result.

    Once distribution is good, then one could add more to deposits to increase the overall level.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
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  2. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    This is a place to go into detail just a bit on the kind of Interactive Changes I was talking about.

    You could always shift cargo from sea to land transport or back again - but every time you did that, there was wastage: boxes broken in handling, cargo dropped overboard by mistake, stolen, etc. In game, that should translate as a drop in Bonus from any Trade Route for every such trans-ship point - which would not completely offset the mighty boost from having a Sea Trade Route, but diminish it.

    Until the 1950s (mid-Atomic Era) when everything not bulk raw materials could be loaded into a standardized Container at the point of origin and that container sealed and unsealed at the destination, moving by way of railroad, road, sea or air as required in between. Losses in transit drop dramatically, speed of transit goes up, profits and amount of goods traded rises spectacularly using the same facilities - ports, rail yards, trucking depots - already in existence, but modified to take advantage of the new methods. Add to that computerized international communications and shipment tracking, and you also revolutionize Manufacturing: no more depots and warehouses and yards full of raw materials to feed the production lines, everything can be shipped to the producing facility as needed, with assurance that it will arrive precisely when needed. That also means the speed with which manufacturing can react to changes increases dramatically: the factory does not have to work through a backlog of parts and materials: change the machinery (which is increasingly multi-purpose and automated), start shipping new raw materials, and shift output from Televisions to smart phones, automobiles to light trucks, in weeks or months instead of months or years.

    So, one Atomic Era change results in changes to Trade, Gold income from trade, Production - and also makes possible the buying and selling instantly on-line, since goods can be shipped in virtually any quantity anywhere at a moment's notice, so it also changes Amenities and adds value to existing Harbors, Commercial Hubs, Industrial Zones, Markets, Factories, etc.

    And it's all missing from the game, and it's only one example of what's missing from the game.

    One more quick example (sorry, but I'm On A Roll here)
    In World War Two, both the German and US armies estimated that it took 8 - 13 shots from a medium tank to knock out an enemy tank, at an average range of 700 meters.
    20 years later (1965 - Atomic Era) a NATO medium tank with the then-standard 105mm canon could knock out an enemy tank with at most 2 shots, and could virtually guarantee getting a hit with the second shot, at ranges up to 1500 meters. So, the lethality of the 'Modern Armor' had increased by at least 300% and the range doubled since the 'Tank'. Not counting, of course, that the average speed of the Tank was about 40 kph, of the Modern Armor 50 kph with twice the range on a tank of fuel, and 2 - 3 times thicker armor.
    20 years after that (1985 - 90) the main gun was now a 120mm cannon, the armor was a complex composite of metal, ceramic, and plastic, the speed was up to 70 kph, and enemy tanks were being hit at 3000 meters, or 4 times the WWII range. Not to mention that the tanks had fire suppression systems, night vision, could fire on the move at speed and communicate with HQ through satellite links over 1000s of kilometers.

    In other words, we're missing at least one more Upgrade in the middle of the Tank - Modern Armor progression, BUT adding more units that late in the game is, right now, a waste of design resources.

    So, the End Game (Atomic Era plus) needs a major rethink, to even slightly-accurately model the changes that have taken place. Adding a few 'modern techs' doesn't do it: there are Massive Changes in almost every aspect of the Cultural, Trade, Amenity and Domination game that need to be addressed. Right now, the late game appears (to me, who has lived through most of the Atomic and Information Eras) Unfinished, even an afterthought to the game.
     
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  3. NukeAJS

    NukeAJS King

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    Giving how rare uranium is and how common horse and iron are, it'd be nice if horse and iron gave their normal 2 and uranium gave 6.
     
  4. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Seems to me, you should be able to easily get a barely-adequate trickle of most strategic resources, but there should be mother loads located away from all starting locations in what is more-or-less neutral space.

    The reasoning shouldn't be too hard to follow. Lacking a resource completely could result in you lacking the means to build units that could effectively fight over the mother load. I would rather the game build up my appetite for cavalry than put me in a position where I make an early to decision to simply work without it.

    Let's make the map the hero of the game, rather than a homogeneous bit player.
     
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  5. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    We seem to be agreed that the amount and distribution of Resources needs to be, at least, 'tweaked'.

    To return to my idea that the Amount of resources needs to be variable, and variable within a single Deposit so as not to remove even more tiles from District/City consideration, for an example let's look at some 'Oil' historical examples:

    The first two Oil deposits that were exploited IRL were Titusville, Pennsylvania, and Baku, Russia (Baku was first by a several decades, but the early exploitation of Titusville was more intense because it was closer to Major Markets like the American eastern seaboard cities of New York, Philadelphia, etc.), both in the Industrial Era

    Titusville was essentially no longer worked by the Atomic Era, whereas Baku is still a major Oil Producer almost 200 years after it was first drilled. Baku alone produced enough Oil resource to power/produce 70% of the Soviet war effort in World War Two: that's a lot of tanks, planes, and infantry from a single 'Deposit'. Likewise, the Ploesti fields in Rumania produced the Oil for over 60% of the German war effort in WWII, and also provided inadequate supplies for the Italian fleet and air force (both of which were effectively 'grounded' by the end of 1942 for lack of Oil)

    So, potentially, a single Deposit could provide anywhere from 1 to (game terms estimate) 10 - 15 Oil per turn, and do it for as little as a single Era (Titusville) to the entire last 3 Eras of the game (Baku).
    That's a huge range, and obviously, having access to a Major Deposit like Baku would dramatically change your end game possibilities and potentials.

    So, I suggest that a completely Historical model for Resources is a really bad idea in game terms - it makes the entire End Game (Modern Era on) a crap shoot in which random resource quantities dictate what you can do and how well regardless of any strategy, UU, UI, or any other Civ/game consideration. Not good design.

    On the other hand, IF alternatives are included, a random quantity mechanism can be introduced to Resources and it will require continued decision-making and produce genuine strategic requirements for the gamer in the last third of the game.

    In the case of Oil, the resource is revealed at Steel, Oil Wells can be drilled/built at Combustion Tech, Off Shore Platforms at Plastics Tech and currently, there you stop.
    Oil resource is available on Snow, Tundra, Desert, Marsh, or Coastal tiles.

    Suggested Changes:
    At Steel Tech, on reveal, Oil deposits produce 1 Oil per turn using the primitive technology of Titusville and the original Baku fields, not represented specifically in the game. Stockpiling would be limited to no more than 10 per Factory or Industrial Hub
    At Combustion Oil Wells each produce 2 Oil per turn, and Stockpiles can be higher.
    At Combined Arms a Military Engineer Charge can 'upgrade' an Oil Well to a Deep Well, producing 4 Oil per turn per Well and increasing possible Stockpile totals.
    At Plastics in addition to the Off-Shore Rig, another Military Engineer Charge can Upgrade Off Shore or land Oil Wells to Guided Deep Wells that produce 8 Oil per turn.

    In addition, at Chemistry Tech Oil can be produced from Coal, but it requires a Military Engineer Charge to 'convert' a Factory to do that and the general Production from that Factory is reduced by 50% while it produces up to 2 Oil per turn at the cost of 2 Coal per turn.
    At Synthetic Materials Oil can be produced from Bio-Materials, meaning any Farm can be 'converted' using (you quessed it) a Military Engineer Charge, reducing the Food output from the farm to Zero but producing 2 Oil per turn from that farmed tile.
    At Composites Oil Shale or Oil Sands Deposits are revealed, which can be on Snow, Tundra, Plains or Grasslands Hills, and by putting a Mine enhanced by a Military Engineer Charge on the tile, 6 Oil per turn can be produced.

    Every Deposit: Oil, off-shore Oil, Oil Sands, is subject to Depletion. Basically, each Deposit has a maximum total between 50 and 1000 Oil which is randomly generated when the deposit is first revealed.
    The faster you drill, the more 'enhanced' drills you work, the faster you are likely to run out of 'natural' deposits and have to go to the Alternatives or exploit new Deposits.

    In addition, instead of revealing all Oil at once, I suggest that only about 1/2 of the 'natural' deposits should be revealed at Steel, with another 1/4 at Combustion, and the last 1/4 at Plastics. Reveals could also be spread into the Information Era, but at that point you are running out of time to exploit anything from scratch.

    In other words, with effort you can stay supplied with oil, but the amount of effort will vary depending on the map and the need you have, and a combination of variable deposits, variable reveals of deposits, and alternatives to deposits would keep the 'Resource Game' dynamic but playable throughout the end-game.
     
  6. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    This discussion makes me wish we had a bona fide trade system, not the bolted-on system that was transplanted from Civ V. It really should be more bothersome that trading resources (luxury or strategic) is disconnected from actually being able to reach any destination city with an actual trade route. I don't know any 4X game that does justice by trade in this respect though.

    I would also like to see a marketplace develop where we forego pop-up trading for putting goods on an open market. Other 4X games do this.
     
  7. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    Side note: oil now reveals at refining tech, and wells come there too. It's a new GS tech.

    Where you mentioned stockpiles is interesting;
    I was thinking about this in my England game from the OP: I think the developers almost had some sort of idea that you would build up a fuel stockpile and burn it down during war, or something. But no one declares war then spends 10 turns buildings tanks. I do like the concept of resource conversion, but it might be better as a IZ project option that converts a bulk amount rather than an income; IE, convert X coal to Y oil.
    I also think having tech unlock deeper deposits (you suddenly find that 2 deposit was worth 8) is good. You always want to the real thing to be the best option if it's available.
    Now, having some quasi implementation of shale as a great person ability would be really cool - say, each stone resource in the city grants 1-2 oil.
    It's really an area where you might want to have a corporation esque model step in - in civ4, Standard Ethanol would consume various crops and one of the benefits was it would provide oil for that city. (Civ4 had a resource model like civ6 vanilla+RF.) Or again, you could add a great person whose ability is to make feature chops also produce a little oil for your stockpile. Truly synthetic oil might be a good candidate for a policy card that grants you some oil income (say 5); or perhaps some oil per encampment at the cost of gpt. Look at aerospace contractors card and how it works.

    The problem with not having a world market is that you have a strict producer|have-not dynamic with how civ6 trade works, instead of producer|consumer a la every resource in the real world. I would be thrilled if I, as a peaceful nation vying for diplo victory, could sell my reserves for serious $$$. Maybe even have world congress decisions around helping or hurting the revenues of a given resource producing cartel.

    Another outstanding boon would be if, as some have mentioned, fuel using units inside your borders could be put to "sleep" to cease their resource usage. It could be balanced by requiring a wakeup turn to "mobilize."
    Then you could actually have an army model where you've got a few hundred oil banked, production of 2, but 12 oil units on standby. So a war better be over in 20 turns or you're in trouble. Forward deployment has serious cost.
    That's strategic depth.

    Starting with just having some techs reveal the true scale of deposits would be a good first change though. Everything else needs to be balanced around that.
     
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  8. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    Thanx - shows how seldom I play past the Industrial Era even since GS!

    It's related but separate, but a Completely Revised Trade System that includes a 'world market' or Commodities Exchange would enormously enhance the Resource system in the late game. For one thing, such a World Market would be an elegant and simple way to show the variations in Economic Systems available: Communism and a Command Economy allows you to direct your production resources as you like, but it is grossly inefficient compared to a Free Market system, so you end up getting priced right out of the 'global' market and the hit taken can be so great it collapses your economy and Civ (see: Soviet Union in the late 1980s, collapsing completely as an economy and government in the 1990s).

    The most important part of a Trade System Reform, though, as @steveg700 points out above, is to replace the current two 'trade' systems with one, in which ALL trade requires the physical capability of reaching the market/destination, instead of having a trade in Strategic and Luxury Resources that is strictly Diplomatic and utterly independent of the map.

    Nobody IRL ever kept their entire military 'ready to go' all the time since the Middle Ages. Mobilization is part of every war in the past 500 years, and it's a little silly that it has not been given a place in Civ VI (or V, for that matter). 'Calling up' manpower and readying mothballed equipment can take very little time in game terms (although some American Reservist/National Guard units mobilized for the Gulf War back in the 1990s took up to six months to be ready to deploy, so a One Turn Delay is completely reasonable).
    Nor is a 'mobilization period' or even stockpiling Equipment strictly a post-Renaissance/Industrial Era Thing: there are records from Egypt, the Middle East and Mycenean Greece during the Ancient Era of 'stockpiles' of weapons, armor, and chariots (broken down and stored as parts) - and if I could read Ancient Chinese, there are probably similar records from there as well: it seems to have been 'standard practice' amongst large bureaucratic Empires: put Production resources into equipment/weapons to be issued to men called forth only when the war starts, to keep them working in the fields and shops usefully for as long as possible.

    Reference above: "- a war better be over in 20 turns or you're in trouble - " - this is a precise statement of why Germany's attack on the Soviet Union in 1941 was a Disaster for them: when they started on 22 June, Germany had fuel stockpiled sufficient for three months. They assumed they could win the war by then. When, at the end of September, they hadn't won, their last offensive against Moscow in October was Doomed: by the end of the month the bulk of Army Group Center had 7 Panzer Divisions aimed directly at Moscow and enough fuel to move one of them 60 kilometers - not even enough to reach the middle of the city.
    It would be nice to be able to recreate that kind of Strategic Stupidity in the game: could teach a few gamers Humility.
     
  9. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    I know its ahistorical, but civ games essentially force you to have a standing army, even if they are just hanging out in their encampments. So for that reason we do sort of need to bridge the game mechanical divide.
    Since sometimes the devs appear to see our words, i was just speaking in a way to keep changes surgical. Although i really do wish they could figure a fun way to merge diplomacy, trade deals, and the trade route system. I would pay $30-40 for that kind of overhaul. It doesn't even need to be complex; just something intuitive so you feel rewarded for playing the trade layer; rather than just using it as a yield bonanza. IMO trade routes should be something you could devote an entire strategy to; there's little in the way of investing in trade and trade modifiers atm, but it doesn't have to be so. Then a small nation could invest in a big trade fleet and reap outsized rewards, just like many countries have IRL.

    This is the exact historical scenario I had on my mind! I do think player stockpile limits are generally too low to make it feasible though. England feels much better with her spacious harbors.
    If you have 10 cities (a number I think the devs roughly intended for small/tiny maps) and half of them have encampments, that's what, +200 stockpiles with all the buildings? 250 total. It's just tough to work with when having the units makes it impossible to stockpile, since their fuel needs kills your income.
     
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  10. S1AL

    S1AL Warlord

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    To clarify my earlier comment about having more resource deposits...

    Please please please please please please please can we place districts on top of resources??? There is no realism or gameplay justification for why my industrial zone can't exist alongside iron extraction. Or my campus or theater square, for that matter. The game would be so much more playable if districts could be placed on resources. Of all the oversights related to districts, this is the one that still has me scratching my head.
     
  11. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    - Finds perfect grassland +4 campus spot
    :band:
    - Reveals horses on tile
     
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  12. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    @Sostratus @Boris Gudenuf Just my two cents guys... I get FXS were going for this whole late game trade off thing of strategic resources for units v power ... and I get it doesn’t work because units are basically all about oil and power is all about uranium. But I think the whole trade off of units v power is quite silly and so I’m glad it doesn’t work.

    Oil is about units. Coal and Nuke is all about power. To me, you only use oil for power if you don’t have enough coal (ie last resort).

    On the whole standing army thing, I think it is what it is, because you don’t really build armies in Civ. You build basically individual units. Combat is more like a skirmish system then an actual war game. I’d prefer a war game, where I build real armies and deal with supply routes and morale. But what we have is fine (although, yeah, it could use some tweaks).
     
  13. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    Agreed. Looking at all the photos of oil wells pumping away in downtown Los Angeles should tell someone at Firaxis that Districts and resources do not have to be separate. Drop the Appeal of a tile if there is an Extraction Resource under it, penalizing your Neighborhoods if you think some kind of penalty needs to be applied, but the coal mines under several cities in Pennsylvania, the silver mines under Virginia City and Truckee, Nevada, the oil wells pumping away in Los Angeles, Houston, Dallas, are all indicators that the current exclusion just ain't right.
     
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  14. Aussie_Lurker

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    I don't mind at least some degree of "scarcity" related to the number of resource deposits. Sure its not 100% realistic, but sometimes Game-play has to trump realism. That said, though, it would be great to see different deposits granting variable quantities of resources per turn. Another thought I had, though, is what if certain resource deposits were more "Special" than others.....not merely due to the size of said deposit. For example, historically Arabian Horses have always been far more prized than almost any other type of horse.....so why not have something similar for resources in the game? This special nature would come across in the tile bonus for that tile.....but for strategic resources it would more importantly come across in special abilities for Units/Buildings constructed with that resource-a Horse Resource that grants you mounted units with either greater speed or an ability to ignore specific terrain impediments. Iron that generates slightly stronger Pike-men & Swordsmen. A Coal Resource that produces power over a greater radius and/or at lower CO2 cost. Hunting for these special resources-whether they be strategic, luxury or bonus-could be yet another driver of Colonial Expansion.

    I think that is a reasonable compromise. Districts should be able to tap strategic resources-but at the cost of a slight de-buff to the output of the district.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 30, 2019
  15. AsH2

    AsH2 Prince

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    Would they change Districts to be generic at first (to be specified later) that could open up for this mixture. Would they also set a deposit size for extraction resources (non-regenerating resources), along with your suggested changes..
    Spoiler :
    Suggested Changes:
    At Steel Tech, on reveal, Oil deposits produce 1 Oil per turn using the primitive technology of Titusville and the original Baku fields, not represented specifically in the game. Stockpiling would be limited to no more than 10 per Factory or Industrial Hub
    At Combustion Oil Wells each produce 2 Oil per turn, and Stockpiles can be higher.
    At Combined Arms a Military Engineer Charge can 'upgrade' an Oil Well to a Deep Well, producing 4 Oil per turn per Well and increasing possible Stockpile totals.
    At Plastics in addition to the Off-Shore Rig, another Military Engineer Charge can Upgrade Off Shore or land Oil Wells to Guided Deep Wells that produce 8 Oil per turn.

    In addition, at Chemistry Tech Oil can be produced from Coal, but it requires a Military Engineer Charge to 'convert' a Factory to do that and the general Production from that Factory is reduced by 50% while it produces up to 2 Oil per turn at the cost of 2 Coal per turn.
    At Synthetic Materials Oil can be produced from Bio-Materials, meaning any Farm can be 'converted' using (you quessed it) a Military Engineer Charge, reducing the Food output from the farm to Zero but producing 2 Oil per turn from that farmed tile.
    At Composites Oil Shale or Oil Sands Deposits are revealed, which can be on Snow, Tundra, Plains or Grasslands Hills, and by putting a Mine enhanced by a Military Engineer Charge on the tile, 6 Oil per turn can be produced.

    Every Deposit: Oil, off-shore Oil, Oil Sands, is subject to Depletion. Basically, each Deposit has a maximum total between 50 and 1000 Oil which is randomly generated when the deposit is first revealed.
    The faster you drill, the more 'enhanced' drills you work, the faster you are likely to run out of 'natural' deposits and have to go to the Alternatives or exploit new Deposits.

    In addition, instead of revealing all Oil at once, I suggest that only about 1/2 of the 'natural' deposits should be revealed at Steel, with another 1/4 at Combustion, and the last 1/4 at Plastics. Reveals could also be spread into the Information Era, but at that point you are running out of time to exploit anything from scratch.

    In other words, with effort you can stay supplied with oil, but the amount of effort will vary depending on the map and the need you have, and a combination of variable deposits, variable reveals of deposits, and alternatives to deposits would keep the 'Resource Game' dynamic but playable throughout the end-game.
    ..then there could be extraction limits so more space need to be claimed for further drilling/digging, forcing some adjacent buildings to be (re-)moved.
     
  16. Troy Bruckner

    Troy Bruckner Prince

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    I wish they did horses completely different because once you get 2 in real life you can have many over time. Maybe use a builder charge to add horses and +1 production (+2 after Civil Service etc..) to a plains tile
     
  17. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    See The Next Expansion: a Few Suggestions - the Third Part titled Resources Revamped.
    ALL resources that are plant or animal based should be 'moveable' if you have the right technology, terrain and are willing to put in the effort. Among the most obvious examples are Cotton, which was originally growing only in the area of India and western South America, Silk which was originally extracted/exploited only in China, and Horses which originally consisted of only 4 useable sub-species in central Asia and Europe and were 'explorted' all over the world by the Industrial Era, including to Australia and the Americas, where, in the latter case, large numbers of them now run wild, having perfectly adapted to the 'new' environment.
     
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  18. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    What about an escalating cost scale based on need vs availability?

    Say I have 10 units that need Oil and I'm generating 12 Oil -> build and maintenance costs are normal
    But if I have 11 units that need Oil and I'm generating 10 Oil -> build and maintenance costs increase by 50%
    If I have more than 5 units more than I'm generating -> build and maintenance costs increase by 100%
    If 10 units more than I'm generating -> build and maintenance costs increase by 200%

    This brings some economics into the game, since typically there's some source or some substitute for any need, just at higher and higher costs. It still creates value to having access to resources, but isn't as punishing if you don't.
     
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  19. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    I'm presuming you mean the Production Cost in Production and purchase and Maintenance Costs in Gold, making Gold a 'substitute' for the Resource normally required.
    This would be a good way of, as you say, introducing a generic Economic Cost to scarce Resources, but the current 'balance' in the game would also have to be revamped or it really wouldn't be much of a Cost, Gold being as relatively easy to acquire as it is now.
    When as appears to be normal (about 20 games played since GS/June Patch is my personal 'data base'), without any special effort my 'National Income' by the Modern Era averages 200 or more Gold per turn, even at a 200% penalty I can still afford 10 or more Tank Units without excessive strain. Given that in WWII the USSR never had more than 6 tank armies, Germany never more than 12 Panzer Corps, and the USA formed less than 20 armored divisions, that's not a serious in-game limitation without some massaging of the current Gold Income potentialities.

    Still very worth exploring, though.
     
  20. Navelgazer

    Navelgazer King

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    This is one of the few places where I really prefer Civ V's implementation, if for nothing else than the subtle graphical differences you'd see in a resource-heavy tile vs. a resource-light one.
     

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