Do you prefer strategy games to be in 3d?

Kyriakos

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Personally i do not see any advancement to the games due to them being in 3d. I am mostly thinking of turn-based ones (or closer to turn-based, such as Europa Universalis).

There are variations between being in "2d" and 3d, such as pseudo-3d, or partly-3d (EU series by now). I don't mind those, but full 3d (eg CivIV) doesn't look pleasant to me in this genre.
 
I don't care so much about 3d as better graphics in general. It's hard to get into really old but great games like MOO just because the graphics are so outdated. Civ4 looks fine to me but there is a noticeable difference going to Civ5. Graphics are like icing, doesn't work without the cake but a cake without great icing is bland.
 
Tired old debate. It can be in 2D or 3D, frankly I don't give a crap. There are examples of great games in both styles. I don't think it matters much in 2013 anymore. Developers will have a vision and do whichever style they want, and the success or failure of their game will have almost nothing to do with whether or not they chose 2d or 3d.
 
^What Maniacal said. By and large, I'd rather have development resources focus on other areas like good AI than on graphics. The one aspect of 3D that I generally do find to be advantageous is that it usually offers flexible zoom, whereas 2D is usually more limited in zoom options. Actual graphics, both 2D and 3D can look either good or bad. I'll buy either if I think it'll be a good game.

Though as a fellow member of Civ3 C&C, my thoughts probably aren't a surprise.
 
XCOM: Enemy Unknown actually provides a great game for discussing this.

On the one hand :wavey:: The basic rules of the tactical combat are fairly simple. It wouldn't be hard to release it as a board game, or a 2D graphics TBS game. I think such a game would actually be pretty fun. So no, TBS games don't necessarily need 3D graphics.

On the other hand :old:: 3D graphics can definitely add a lot. XCOM: EU would be a far worse game without the quality 3D graphics and exquisite audio work helping to build suspense and set the atmosphere.

On the wait, I'm out of hands already :dunno:: As a consumer, seeing a game without 3D graphics today doesn't tell me they skipped on 3D graphics but spent heavily on developing other parts of the game. It tells me that most likely, they skipped 3D graphics because they couldn't afford them, and the game is a low-budget indie game. I have nothing particularly against indie games, but you do have to be more cautious when buying them because there are some absolute stinkers out there.
 
RTS tends to need 3D graphics. But TBS does not need them.

I wouldn't say it *needs* them. SC1, AoE 1/2 and the first two Warcrafts all got along perfectly find without them.
 
CK2 map is far, far better than the EUIII one was before they changed it to more or less the Victoria II map. Even then its still nicer for the most part.

Its still pretty much a 2D game though, only the terrain and unit models are in 3D, but all the movement and stuff is 2D.
 
I'm actually working on an indie 2d RTS right now, and I had to research 2d vs 3d graphics a little bit, and got to a few conclusions.

Perception-wise RTS games work better in a 2d setting. However they'll have a faster development time and will be easier to sell if they are 3d.

That's the short version. The long version is that 2d objects keep their outlines at all times. 3D objects outlines are ever changing depending on their movement and camera positioning, which can become an issue.

Human perception attempts to shortcut as much of what you can see as possible. If unit's outlines outside your direct focus are changing at all times, your units can become lost in the screen (particularly in the midst of a heated battle). Games such as Warcraft 3 overcome this with some degree of success by having exaggerated features, therefor enhancing an outline that is easier to follow outside your direct focus.

On the other hand, creating isometric 12 sided 2d sprites is very time consuming. For the aforementioned indie RTS I'm slaving my ass on, I created a lot of hand drawn 2d sprites and it takes a lot of time. The end results look a little quirky too (which we hope to get a free pass on since we have no budget).

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If a triple A studio were to make a 2d RTS, it would cost them a lot of money. Professional 2d animation costs a few dozen thousands of dollars to create seamless animations (with a lot of the work being finished overseas).

However, 2d units contrast in the screen can be effective since there's a little bit more of direct control of subject and background.

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(working screenshot)

So in that image I worked the tiles to look painterly whereas the sprites look like old cartoons. It kind of works.

The workload would had been halved considerably have we had worked these in 3d. However we didn't had the funding, so we did the best we could. If in my crappy indie I want to change something, it'll take a few days of work on my side.

The last point is that games in 3d are a much easier sell than 2d ones. The last major 2d RTS I can remember was Sunage, a game that was destroyed by reviewers, in large part because it was a mid 2000s game with 1998 graphics (also it wasn't up to modern RTS mechanics). I still think Sunage looks gorgeous though:

sunage05ll9.jpg


On 3d RTS games on the otherhand, you can make the entire thing look far more exciting than what it really is. Even the so so Dawn of War sequel looks amazing in almost every screenshot. Even though the player would have no reason whatsoever to use the camera in such way:
dawnbeta582.jpg


Graphics are just meant for immersion and presentation. They are meant to get players to play and buy the game (because no one plays text based games anymore). In this regard 3d games just get the job done more efficiently from a business point of view. Which is a shame, I don't particularly think they work better for RTS games and I kind of miss the 2d games of the late 90s.
 
I think clean, well-designed 2D interfaces and graphics work well for strategy games. Orson said it best--the camera angles might look really cool in 3D, but there is little reason to actually use those camera angles besides selling the game.

Then again, I am also a heavy board gamer which is effectively 2D.
 
So here's what I'm starting to think on the matter:
1. If your game is fundamentally a 3D game, you need 3D graphics (you could not have made Homeworld work nearly as well with 2D graphics).
2. 3D graphics can sometimes add to immersion. XCOM: Enemy Unknown would not have been the same with 2D graphics.
3. 2D graphics cost more and take more time.
4. 3D graphics tend to sell better nowadays.
5. 2D graphics are often better at conveying necessary information to a player, while cutting down on clutter and needless obfuscation.
 
^ Most "2d" graphics produced today are in reality 3d graphics rendered at a set angle. So they are actually easier to make than full 3d (since in a full 3d model you obviously have to worry about the 180 degrees not shown in its '2d' isometric version). I am pretty sure that almost all major games of the near past that used '2d' were employing 3d artists rendering in the way i mentioned. The Sierra city builder series is like that. Also Seven Kingdoms 2 is obviously like that. As OrsonM said, making real 2d graphics (ie pixel by pixel or through some non 3d programming) is A LOT HARDER.
 
^ Most "2d" graphics produced today are in reality 3d graphics rendered at a set angle. So they are actually easier to make than full 3d (since in a full 3d model you obviously have to worry about the 180 degrees not shown in its '2d' isometric version). I am pretty sure that almost all major games of the near past that used '2d' were employing 3d artists rendering in the way i mentioned. The Sierra city builder series is like that. Also Seven Kingdoms 2 is obviously like that. As OrsonM said, making real 2d graphics (ie pixel by pixel or through some non 3d programming) is A LOT HARDER.

Yeah, that's a much easier way to do it (modeling it in 3d and presenting it in sprite form), which is what Blizzard did in most of their 2d classics (I think Warcraft 1 and some of Warcraft 2 were Hand Drawn).

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I think they were aiming for having that 3d look that brought more sales. Also memory-wise it was easier to have 2d sprites made in 3d than having 3d models at a time when very few computers could run 3d well.

When Warcraft 3 came out it was a huge thing. 3d graphics have and always have been something of an exciting thing for the gaming audience. So early Warcraft 3 screenshots made sure to use as much 3d-ness as possible:
Spoiler :
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Even though that looks nothing like the final product, as again, the player would have no use for that camera. The final product ended up looking like a regular 2d RTS, but with 3d graphics.
Spoiler :

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So all that advancement and the game still, by all purposes still looks like this:

Spoiler :
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However the box promo screenshots still displayed this fancy use of the 3d camera, particularly that large screenshot, which is by all means beatiful. But which was not in the game at all:
Spoiler :

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Even if you brought up all of these points to the higher ups in Blizzard they would still go for a full 3d game. Investors love 3d graphics, they love 3d everything. They are way easier to produce, they can promote them better, they can sell them better and they can charge extra for it (it's the wave of the future!). I mean, you know... videogames are kind of a business first.

EDIT: fixed a bad image link.
 
I tried Civ 4 and Civ 5 but I can't stand playing them because of the 3D graphics. It's very annoying and the game just doesn't look/feel right. So I still prefer Civ 3.
 
Early 3d games were kinda iffy because the models were boxy, jagged edges, lower texture resolutions etc. But today's modern games 3d can look really, really good. So I guess I go for 3d.
 
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