Do you prefer the Holy Roman Empire to Poland?

[cybrxkhan]

Courland was actually referenced in the "Colonial Empires" article on Wiki a while back... it said something like this:

"...the definition of Colonial Empires could apply to Courland as well, because it technically owned colonies outside in the world"

Awhile. Soon this thread will turn into a "Poland should be in for the next expansion/Game"

no, you'd make a new one. and 2000 posts!

 

[Traitorfish]

Courland was actually referenced in the "Colonial Empires" article on Wiki a while back... it said something like this:

"...the definition of Colonial Empires could apply to Courland as well, because it technically owned colonies outside in the world"

Well, maybe. Either way, the point is that Poland never owned overseas territory.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Well, maybe. Either way, the point is that Poland never owned overseas territory.

yup. neither did we Viets. sort of. we're still sort of trying to claim the Spratly Islands in the Pacific, but they're only a few hundred miles from us, so it doesn't really count.

 

[Squonk]

Well, maybe. Either way, the point is that Poland never owned overseas territory.

it did have a protectorate over Liberia for a couple of years. Russia never had a true overseas territory as well (Alaska is only a strait away)

 

[Traitorfish]

Yeah, yeah, I think we're getting a bit confused here. My point was that Poland wasn't an empire because it had never controlled another nation or region. I only brought up overseas colonies because I mentioned Courland.
Unless you count the Liberia thing, but I can't find anything about that. Not that I'm saying it's not true, I just don't know how that effects this whole dealy.

 

[Monkeymonk]

Suits as better then it does the germans...

Holy = Polish people are actually devoted christians, and back then we were christian fanatics Holy suits us better then it does for the germans!

Poland = Self-explanitory

Empire = We were an empire...



Awhile. Soon this thread will turn into a "Poland should be in for the next expansion/Game"

I didn't mean to suggest it didn't suit you -- just that it was a humorous "compromise."

Hmm, maybe I should just quit while I'm behind here....

 

[Lone Wolf]

My point was that Poland wasn't an empire because it had never controlled another nation or region.

Eh... at one point the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth controlled Belorus and some Ukrainian territories. And Belorussians and Ukrainians are definitely different nations from Polish.

 

[Saim]

OK, I just read the History of Vietnam and History of Poland pages on Wikipedia, and I think this :

Vietnam would definately be a better choice than Poland.

1. Vietnam is Asian, Europe is already overcrowded
2. Vietnam was actually an empire (took over eastern Indochina), all Poland did was have a union with Lithuania.

It would be called the Viet Empire with Dai Viet as the short description, though, instead of Vietnamese Empire and Vietnam. Its like the relationship between Siam and Thailand.

And yeah, TheLastOne36, I agree, Austria should be in. The Huns, Austria and Italy are the only European civs I want (and the Franks replacing HRE, of course).

I looked up the history of many EE countries (Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, Serbia, Bulgaria, Latvia), and none of them I think are major enough, except for really the Huns, which Im not even sure is Eastern European. I would have Serbia and Bulgaria over Poland, if I had to choose an EE civ, though.

 

[fetabobar]

OK, I just read the History of Vietnam and History of Poland pages on Wikipedia, and I think this : Vietnam would definately be a better choice than Poland.

Vietnam/Indonesia used to be a European colony (French I think). Wouldn't Poland, Hungary, Serbia, or whatever Eastern European country be a better choice than what used to be just a European colony in Asia?

 

[TheLastOne36]

OK, I just read the History of Vietnam and History of Poland pages on Wikipedia, and I think this :

Vietnam would definately be a better choice than Poland.

1. Vietnam is Asian, Europe is already overcrowded
2. Vietnam was actually an empire (took over eastern Indochina), all Poland did was have a union with Lithuania.

It would be called the Viet Empire with Dai Viet as the short description, though, instead of Vietnamese Empire and Vietnam. Its like the relationship between Siam and Thailand.

And yeah, TheLastOne36, I agree, Austria should be in. The Huns, Austria and Italy are the only European civs I want (and the Franks replacing HRE, of course).

I looked up the history of many EE countries (Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, Serbia, Bulgaria, Latvia), and none of them I think are major enough, except for really the Huns, which Im not even sure is Eastern European. I would have Serbia and Bulgaria over Poland, if I had to choose an EE civ, though.

Again why do you hate me?



And yes someone mentioned above Why is Russia an Empire? and Poland is Not. We're closer to have being an empire then they were. And Russia is an Empire, Poland isn't. Courland was a vassal of Poland i believe, so we controlled everything they did, so that does count for us right?

Besides Courland is listed as an empire in Wiki.

 

[aronnax]

Again why do you hate me?



And yes someone mentioned above Why is Russia an Empire? and Poland is Not. We're closer to have being an empire then they were. And Russia is an Empire, Poland isn't. Courland was a vassal of Poland i believe, so we controlled everything they did, so that does count for us right?

Besides Courland is listed as an empire in Wiki.

Well to tell you the truth I dont remenber ever seeing the words Polish Empire together before. There is a Polish Kingdom, Polish-Lithunian Commonwealth but I have never heard of a Polish Empire before. Not saying its not an empire....

 

[Traitorfish]

Eh... at one point the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth controlled Belorus and some Ukrainian territories. And Belorussians and Ukrainians are definitely different nations from Polish.

I suppose, but it's debatable whether or not a Commonwealth can be an Empire- "Empire" implies a certain level of dominance by one part over another. Besides, there's an argument for saying that this, again, was due to Lithuania, not Poland.
At the very least, Poland has never claimed to be an empire, nor has it ever been recognised as one, which, going back to the original point, invalidates LastOne's assertion that Poland was an empire.

 

[LDeska]

Wow, this discussion is still alive? TheLastOne, you're _really_ an iron man (twardziel jak nic z Ciebie ). I see that we are switching from "Poland or Austria" to "Poland or Vietnam" debate now

From my point of view (ok, flawed 'cause i"m Polish, you will say) Poland was an empire during it's golden age.

One more thing - I don't understand why people sometimes suggest that in Commonwealth was so strong "due to Lithuania, not Poland" - Traitorfish, explain it a little bit, I don't get it. As far as I know Lithuania on map was bigger than Poland but those Lithuanian territories were almost inhabitatet and very often people who lived there didn't realized even that are part of Lithuania (I'm thinking about XIV-XV century and territories of today's Belarus and Western Ukraine). In terms of military, wealth, population, culture, science Poland was the big player in this union - for example the University of Kraków founded in 1364. Do you have any arguments to back your thesis? I'm just asking, no offense intended!

 

[TheLastOne36]

Poland was never an Empire i agree with you. But my question is, why if Russia was an Empire, Why can't Poland be one to?

And @ Ldeska:

 

[Traitorfish]

One more thing - I don't understand why people sometimes suggest that in Commonwealth was so strong "due to Lithuania, not Poland" - Traitorfish, explain it a little bit, I don't get it. As far as I know Lithuania on map was bigger than Poland but those Lithuanian territories were almost inhabitatet and very often people who lived there didn't realized even that are part of Lithuania (I'm thinking about XIV-XV century and territories of today's Belarus and Western Ukraine). In terms of military, wealth, population, culture, science Poland was the big player in this union - for example the University of Kraków founded in 1364. Do you have any arguments to back your thesis? I'm just asking, no offense intended!

Well, the Belorussian/Ukranian territory you mentioned had previously been part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, rather than Kingdom of Poland. So, while they were in the possession of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, they did never belonged to Poland itself. It's like how Wales never belonged to Scotland, even though Scotland is part of the UK.
Maybe Poland was the most powerful part of the Commonwealth, but the Ukrainian and Belorussian territories had been annexed by an independent Lithuanian prior to the formation of the Commonwealth, and so did not classify as Polish territory.

Poland was never an Empire i agree with you. But my question is, why if Russia was an Empire, Why can't Poland be one to?

Firstly, because you never controlled another nation or held colonial territory.
Secondly, because you never claimed to be an empire and were never recognised as one.
By contrast, Russia controlled several other nations (Ukraine, Belorussia, Kazakhstan, Baltic states, etc.) and even some colonial territory (Siberia and temporarily Alaska), and made a generally accepted claim to the title of "Empire" with "Czar" being accepted as a title equivalent to "Emperor".

 

[Gaius Octavius]

I wish we had an Apostolic Palace on CFC. Then we could all go to a vote and force this war to end.

(But only those who share the "Civ 4" religion... )

 

[Charles Martel]

I wish we had an Apostolic Palace on CFC. Then we could all go to a vote and force this war to end.

In that case, most people would defy the "resolution" and the war would grow even bigger...

 

[TheLastOne36]

Well, the Belorussian/Ukranian territory you mentioned had previously been part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, rather than Kingdom of Poland. So, while they were in the possession of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, they did never belonged to Poland itself. It's like how Wales never belonged to Scotland, even though Scotland is part of the UK.
Maybe Poland was the most powerful part of the Commonwealth, but the Ukrainian and Belorussian territories had been annexed by an independent Lithuanian prior to the formation of the Commonwealth, and so did not classify as Polish territory.

Firstly, because you never controlled another nation or held colonial territory.
Secondly, because you never claimed to be an empire and were never recognised as one.
By contrast, Russia controlled several other nations (Ukraine, Belorussia, Kazakhstan, Baltic states, etc.) and even some colonial territory (Siberia and temporarily Alaska), and made a generally accepted claim to the title of "Empire" with "Czar" being accepted as a title equivalent to "Emperor".

Fine then. Polish-Lithuanian Empire....

And yes, we controlled Lithuania for some time, Held Ukraine and Belorussia. We controlled Nations. And Courland did control some places for some time. So yes Colonies as well.

 

[0R4NG3]

Fine then. Polish-Lithuanian Empire....

And yes, we controlled Lithuania for some time, Held Ukraine and Belorussia. We controlled Nations. And Courland did control some places for some time. So yes Colonies as well.

And yet, for some reason, you have never called yourself an empire and have never had emperors. I'm not criticizing, just think it's strange.

 

[TheLastOne36]

I'm not arguing that Poland was an Empire. It never was. But why didn't it call itself an empire? just wondering. I mean why is russia an empire, i think Poland was closer to being an Empire then Russia was, and yet Russia is an Empire and Poland is not.