Do you reload?

[Rohili]

Well, I don't really mind what people think of me. I'm just trying to defend a utility like MapFinder that does no harm and break no rule.

Well, I don't really think anyone was attacking your credentials. We were just debating over the differences between reloading and restarting. Perhaps BlackJac went a bit far by calling you a cheat though (but that really depends on your definition on cheating).

I don't think reloading can be detected in most cases, though. It really depends on your own ethics.

 

[MeteorPunch]

Quote: Saying someone's exploiting a game by using a 3rd party tool usually means they're using a cheat to a greater or lesser extent. Or whatever way you want to dress it up.



These programs do tasks that are all possible for the player to do on their own, but would be a time-consuming waste. ie: Figuring out the domination limit, showing what techs the ai will trade, combat calculation, how much culture generated per turn, finding a good starting location, etc. The game of Civ takes long enough already, these are just helps to lessen stress.

Reloading a game is a totally different matter, imo.

 

[Percy]

These programs due tasks that are all possible for the player to do on their own, but would be a time-consuming waste. ie: Figuring out the domination limit, showing what techs the ai will trade, combat calculation, how much culture generated per turn, finding a good starting location, etc. The game of Civ takes long enough already, these are just helps to lessen stress.

Reloading a game is a totally different matter, imo.

that would be true, except that people use the program to get good tiles, not to measure the domination limit.
and once again, we are not saying it is bad to use this software, please see the EDIT of my previous post on page 4 for details.

 

[MeteorPunch]

that would be true, except that people use the program to get good tiles, not to measure the domination limit.
and once again, we are not saying it is bad to use this software, please see the EDIT of my previous post on page 4 for details.

but you can get good tiles anyway. If someones is not gonna play until they get good tiles, then theyre gonna keep reloading. no difference really.

 

[MeteorPunch]

I can't argue with you, percy. we have a SG coming up.

 

[Percy]

yes, and if someone is gonna reload until his Immortal wins the game, where's the problem ?

EDIT: we can argue in all friendliness, that's the point i think. i hope so ^^

 

[Moonsinger]

Heh, I watched Bedazzled, loved it.

OK, what if before entering a barb hut, I saved the game. If the barb hut produces barbs, I reload it and try again, until it gives me a tech (preserve random seed off). Would that be considered an exploit? I don't hurt any AIs, all I do is benefit myself, reloading until the RNG favours me, just like restarting until I get a good position.

You are trying to compare apples with banana again, may be the following example may help clear that up:

"Ok, let me try another way: if your instructor allow the use of a calculator on the Math exam. Some people use it some don't, do you consider those that use the calculator on their math exam as "cheater"? It would consider as a cheat iff (if and only if) the instructor said "no calculator" and you use one anyway. On the issue of "exploit", what do you think you gain in this case? In some cases, the use of calculator may lower your ability to do math; therefore, it may hurt you down the road. Just because you are getting a good deal at the moment, that doesn't mean that you are an exploiter."

 

[Percy]

@Moonsinger
once again, the reloading-calculator is something you CAN do in the civ3-math exam. so why should it be bad ?

 

[MeteorPunch]

yes, and if someone is gonna reload until his Immortal wins the game, where's the problem ?

EDIT: we can argue in all friendliness, that's the point i think. i hope so ^^

His scarred conscience will let him know he is a dirty cheater

 

[MeteorPunch]

What you guys do in the privacy of your own house with your computer is up to you... When it comes to CF competitions though, no reloadin'

 

[Moonsinger]

These programs do tasks that are all possible for the player to do on their own, but would be a time-consuming waste. ie: Figuring out the domination limit, showing what techs the ai will trade, combat calculation, how much culture generated per turn, finding a good starting location, etc. The game of Civ takes long enough already, these are just helps to lessen stress.

Reloading a game is a totally different matter, imo.

Exactly! I think some people here are trying to use the same argument that have been used for a thousand of years. "If God has intented for human to fly, he would have given us wings." Therefore, flying on air when we aren't suppose to would be considered as "cheating".

 

[Moonsinger]

@Moonsinger
once again, the reloading-calculator is something you CAN do in the civ3-math exam. so why should it be bad ?

For the same token, MapFinder is legal for the HoF. So why should it be bad? It would be bad only if the instructor said "no" to it.

 

[Percy]

@MeteorPunch
once again, please let us not mix up things. none of us says that you CAN reload in HoF or that you CANNOT restart. we all know, accept, and abide by the rules of the website, i think.
HOWEVER, on a "philosophical" (sorry i don't know of a better word, non-englishness is terrible ^^) level, we are saying that you are basically not doing worse in reloading tan in restarting.

 

[Percy]

For the same token, MapFinder is legal for the HoF. So why should it be bad?

erm...

Moonsinger, i don't want to be rude or anything, but if we are going to argue, you'll HAVE to read my posts. i have stated at least once in each that i DID NOT THINK MAPFINDER WAS BAD TO USE.
sorry but it's been three pages people are not actually reading our arguments, it's a bit exhausting in the end to always repeat things that people won't read.

EDIT: if it needs more clearing...
let's call "reloading the game": A
and "restarting te game": B
we are NOT saying: "DO NEITHER A NOR B !"
we are saying: "it is OK to do A OR B !"

 

[Rohili]

You are trying to compare apples with banana again, may be the following example may help clear that up:

"Ok, let me try another way: if your instructor allow the use of a calculator on the Math exam. Some people use it some don't, do you consider those that use the calculator on their math exam as "cheater"? It would consider as a cheat iff (if and only if) the instructor said "no calculator" and you use one anyway. On the issue of "exploit", what do you think you gain in this case? In some cases, the use of calculator may lower your ability to do math; therefore, it may hurt you down the road. Just because you are getting a good deal at the moment, that doesn't mean that you are an exploiter."

Ok, I think the problem here is that we are debating on different rationales.

What I personally am trying to prove is that restarting the map till you start in a good position is indeed a way to tweak the game to your advantage. That's all. I'm not saying it is bad, or cheating, or whether or not it should be allowed.

Consider this: What if an AI starts in a lousy postion? Does it get to restart? No, it must stick to the position and make the best it can out of it. This is where in restarting, you get an advantage over the AI, which is not due to your skills in the game.

I reiterate, I'm not saying we should not get this advantage over the AI (goodness knows it gets enough already, on higher diff levels), I'm just saying that restarting is indeed a way of stacking the odds in your favour, just like intentionally choosing a byzantine civ on an arch map is.

If one wants to claim that they truly beat the game without intentionally rigging the odds in their favour in any way, then they also must accept the start position luck gave to them, just like how people who go for a true measure of their skills put all map settings and civ choices to random.

 

[Grogs]

however, we are saying that, people who say these two things basically contradict themselves and their reasonning:

- restarting until i get 6 cows and all-river tiles is ok and it's not cheating.
- reloading when you accidentally move a worker/forget to prevent riots/get humiliated by the RNG is bad.
also, i read many times that "not reloading helps you improve". it is certainly very true. but then, coping with whatever start you have does help you improve, i'm sure.

I think the problem is the use of the word 'cheating.' Who am I cheating? The AI? You mean those guys that build things 2.5 times faster than I can? Ainwood manipulates the GOTM/COTM starts *every single time* to create the game he wants. We don't call that 'cheating' because everyone playing the GOTM gets the same (dis)advantages. That's the whole point of the GOTM's, player vs. player, and as such as long as you're not unfairly taking advantage of *another player* not many people would dare accuse you of cheating.

The HoF is similar. The point is to say 'soandso is the best player out there on this type of map.' By taking out some of the randomness (MapFinder) out of the HoF attempts, you get a much better appreciation of the relative abilities of the players. If I play a HoF game and I happen to luck out and get 3 cows, a river, and 2 luxes in my city radius while SirPleb starts on a 1-tile island, there's a chance I might even get a higher score than him. Does that mean I'm a better player than him? Absolutely not. So if you want to call MapFinder a form of cheating, so be it. Personally, I call it leveling the playing field.

 

[Moonsinger]

erm...

Moonsinger, i don't want to be rude or anything, but if we are going to argue, you'll HAVE to read my posts. i have stated at least once in each that i DID NOT THINK MAPFINDER WAS BAD TO USE.
sorry but it's been three pages people are not actually reading our arguments, it's a bit exhausting in the end to always repeat things that people won't read.

Sorry, I got mess up between you and BlackJAC.

EDIT: if it needs more clearing...
let's call "reloading the game": A
and "restarting te game": B
we are NOT saying: "DO NEITHER A NOR B !"
we are saying: "it is OK to do A OR B !"

Your stand on this issue can be summarized by your quote "i agree it is apples and oranges. but both are fruits =)".

And my stand on this issue can be summarized by what I have said "Some fruits are safe for eating, some are not. Some fruits are more poisonous than the other and some could even kill you by touch. Therefore, the argument that all fruits are the same doesn't really hold water."

In a way, we are all trying to "split a hair" here, but it was a fun debating with you. I'm not trying to win or anything...I just want to see if I can keep up with you.

 

[BlackJAC]

AAARGGGHHH , i've not called anyone a cheat. Also, I have NEVER once said her achievements are somewhat questionable due to her having used Mapfinder, infact i think some of the logs on HoF are impressive regardless if they've used a tool to find a good start or not.

If people are going to be selective with what they read, then what's the point in discussing this any further?

 

[MeteorPunch]

Ok, I think the problem here is that we are debating on different rationales.

What I personally am trying to prove is that restarting the map till you start in a good position is indeed a way to tweak the game to your advantage. That's all. I'm not saying it is bad, or cheating, or whether or not it should be allowed.

-snip

If one wants to claim that they truly beat the game without intentionally rigging the odds in their favour in any way, then they also must accept the start position luck gave to them, just like how people who go for a true measure of their skills put all map settings and civ choices to random.

What about how the computer starts with so many advantages. It is impossible to beat the computer on Sid 98/100 times for even the best players with all random settings. That would be a huge waste of time then for anyone to claim they beat it on Sid.

 

[BlackJAC]

Surely that's the point in playing the harder settings? The AI having an advantage. If people want to start off on an even footing with the AI why don't they just stick with regent?