[GS] Do you rush a district for State Workforce?

[Victoria]

why my CVs have felt slow

the thing with CV's is the AI does not create a lot of culture early on so IF you can really pump your tourism hard early you can win around T100.
GOTM62 the best was T106. So earlier is better but it is hard to get it right because you need settlers AND theaters.

 

[Leucarum]

the thing with CV's is the AI does not create a lot of culture early on so IF you can really pump your tourism hard early you can win around T100.
GOTM62 the best was T106. So earlier is better but it is hard to get it right because you need settlers AND theaters.

Sadly it rarely feels like the AI is even competing for culture early on unless Mvemba or Pericles are in the game... I'll have to experiment with adding in more early thearers...

 

[Naeshar]

To answer OP as well: I do not consider it rushing, but as builder-player I try to build a district in time for the eureka/inspiration. Usually holy site, but campus is also good, if Hypatia is first GP, and encampment if you want to go for eureka efficiency, since it gives two of them. Also for followup, on campus you need two universities, but only one armory for the next eurekas. However I never get the 4 trading routes and 2 markets inspirations this way .
The AI (one or two of them) sometimes builds campus very early, and can take the first few scientists instead of me.

 

[Victoria]

Is Hypatia that good anyway? I have chopped early faith for her before and felt let down by the difference.
Campus adjacency maybe +3 on average, library +2, population +2 and maybe a science CS for +2 is in total +9 so hypation is roughly giving you 1/10th of your early science but for what sacrifice.
Just playing devils advocate here.

 

[Naeshar]

Just playing devils advocate here.

Little devil... I am no deity, just a mere king.

Pushing Hypatia may not be the intention here (otherwise there would be threads named "Is Hyapita OP?!?"), but it provides for a different game, slightly different if there are other CS first.
The order would be early campus, second city, second campus and library in capital. Then slowly get Hypatia and use her in second city. Voila... early science, perhaps 1/10 still, but you built a second library for free in a developing city and can do other things in capital. Library production equals what … two warriors with policy? The value of free library rises with count of sciCS.
It is a mistake from me to wait for the second campus built after getting her, way too often. And the strategy may be slow and risky for immortal or deity level, when you have no certainty of getting Hypatia.

It's more of a play variation than proper full strategy.

 

[Bibor]

Play the map.
Planning anything too early, without proper scouting, is generally equal to shooting yourself in the foot.

Scouting and tackling barb (camps) is by far the most lucrative endeavor in the first 30-50 turns.

Civs that have special early-game benefits (Korea, Rome, Aztecs, Inca etc.) will deviate from this, but not by much.

 

[kb27787]

You overrate the archery Eureka perhaps? the thing is that once you have Agoge slotted your slingers are very cheap to build and whether defensive or attacking if you want 6 slingers with agoge you may have to delay archery anyway. There is no one strict rule but you sort of answer that I hinted at earlier, you are into the initial archer rush. I personally like to find out what horses and iron I have and get an early settler out. My build order changes depending on circumstance and I have argued its value in many other posts. I can do another long one here if you want. With GS and the latest patch an early rush just is not so common unless playing a small pangea map... do you play that? I find it great we can quibble about best openers while in V things were much more dull.

ahhh... advanced tactics state... do not attack. They will attack you and so you entrench/heal in a good spot and watch them bash against your position while you heal... even a scout can do this vs a warrior and inside your borders it becomes a bit OP. The big change comes when they have archers... that is the tricky moment if you do not have archers then, but that is after T20.... it is very true that the best offence is defence in this case.

Prolly just my exp with RnF and vanilla but once I have that first archer I breathe a HUGE sigh of relief. I think mainly its the reassurance factor that I might overrate. Still, I cannot count how many games my life would've been so much easier had that archer been 3 turns faster (and I'm talking defending here, not archer-rushing). Mainly play standard (8 civs) Pangaea, not small.

In any case the only way to find horses is to research the tech which is the prereq for archery anyway(!) which also beelines straight into horsemen if you are inclined to go there. There is certainly no safer tech path (although in some occasions I'll warrant mining has its merits since emergency chops become possible). t20 is pretty darned soon though (if you go scout and builder I think you only have time for MAYBE a last minute slinger before war comes) and also t20 is a difficult mark to finish archery without getting the eureka unless you have blue CS!

I've tried the dual warrior strat a few times and I feel... it just does not pan out for me! True, fortify him somewhere rough but deity AI surrounds him with 3 warriors (your other warrior is fortified in your city right beside him), AI attacks, drops down in red... now you have two options. A) kill that low HP warrior--but next turn your warrior will die or B) leave him be... said enemy warrior promotes and heals and so you got nothing done. With an archer (or even slinger in the city even) at least we can deal some damage with impunity. A single archer is worth easily multiple warriors in terms of efficiency of actually catching and killing units before they run away (and with two archers, barb scouts are easily dispatched before they get to report back).

People want to save hammers by making a whole bunch of slingers and then upgrading, but personally I'm OK with building archers outright with agoge. After all 45 gold/upgrade is not that cheap early on and by using that strat you are committed to conquering pretty much (if you just build 1-2 archers, or 3 for the eureka, you have more options regarding your early production... settlers, monuments, world wonders, etc.). Sometimes a peaceful game is just more fun and finishes faster in realtime due to less clicks (not in terms of # of turns). But in any case I feel whether or not to commit to your first district as a holy site, campus or encampment should be up to whether or not you can afford to waste district slots on things that don't really have that high of a payoff.

 

[Victoria]

AI attacks, drops down in red.

So your Warrior is on a rough hill (+6) doubly fortified (+6)
Warrior 1 does on average 18
Warrior 2 does on average 20
Warrior 3 does on average 21
Your warrior then heals for 15
That puts him on 66 HP
Warrior 1 is on 62
Warrior 2 is on 66
Warrior 3 is on 69
Now if it was that simple then perhaps it is not the best but what would your slinger do? It would be mincemeat.
There is often a river for -5 and some impassable terrain and the fact I have enough gold to buy something to help by that stage because the secret is to hold your gold, it is not a case of chopping, it is a case of buying. And If I have 3 warriors that is normally enough.
Seriously... 3 warriors vs a slinger?
As it happens, since last patch they will ignore your troops and just go for your city. This is turning out to be nastier.
Bottom line is the slinger is safer than a builder but not a warrior, you are building that slinger to get to archer faster, not to take the safest build.
I’m fine with that because it is your game but do not tell me a slinger is as safe as a warrior. It is about you safely getting to archery which is strong but you can still lose your city.

 

[Archon_Wing]

As it happens, since last patch they will ignore your troops and just go for your city.

Yep, a determined attack will kill you and slingers plinking away is too slow. The AI starts with so many free units that they can afford to throw them away. Warriors are needed to minimize the surface area of which they can pound on your city-- if the city is sieged, you die. Sometimes even spending the gold to buy yet another warrior will stop the attack. There are also cramped starts that lack barbs and getting that archery boost is not always reliable.

If I have stone, I actually think fast masonry is the real savior, lol

 

[Naeshar]

It's more of a play variation than proper full strategy.

Okay I randomed until I got Hypatia first GS. Playing Cree (King, Tiny), who are definitely more suitable thanks to Pottery. T59 Hypatia, 2Libraries, >19Science per turn, 3 settlers out, next one being built. Could have been sooner if I met Alex and picked Divine Spark and bought her when ready.

Definitely worth pushing for the Eurekas/Inspirations and science .
I also got a lvl3 Okihcitaw and golden classical.

 

[Victoria]

If I have stone, I actually think fast masonry is the real savior, lol

not so lol... I have had a city on 5 health before I chopped in the wall.... the fools walked away from it when they could have taken it if the AI had read this forum well enough.

 

[kb27787]

So your Warrior is on a rough hill (+6) doubly fortified (+6)
Warrior 1 does on average 18
Warrior 2 does on average 20
Warrior 3 does on average 21
Your warrior then heals for 15
That puts him on 66 HP
Warrior 1 is on 62
Warrior 2 is on 66
Warrior 3 is on 69
Now if it was that simple then perhaps it is not the best but what would your slinger do? It would be mincemeat.
There is often a river for -5 and some impassable terrain and the fact I have enough gold to buy something to help by that stage because the secret is to hold your gold, it is not a case of chopping, it is a case of buying. And If I have 3 warriors that is normally enough.
Seriously... 3 warriors vs a slinger?
As it happens, since last patch they will ignore your troops and just go for your city. This is turning out to be nastier.
Bottom line is the slinger is safer than a builder but not a warrior, you are building that slinger to get to archer faster, not to take the safest build.
I’m fine with that because it is your game but do not tell me a slinger is as safe as a warrior. It is about you safely getting to archery which is strong but you can still lose your city.

Of course by dropping down in red I meant after 2-3 turns of course.
1 archer Vs 3 warriors is bad of course, but as things stand you have your starting warrior so it's a comparison between 2-3 warriors VS 1 warrior and 1 archer. Fortify warrior in city, and put your archer next to him on a hill (even better if there is a river that makes the city impossible to put under siege without killing your archer) and the warrior rush will be cleaned up. With just multiple warriors only AI retains all their warriors because they can run away when they get low.

I'm not sure if our definition of "safe" is the same. Warriors for the most part only buy you time before the inevitable happens. In the longer run 10 turns later or so deity AI (if you cannot get peace) will show up with more advanced units such as chariots and archers and if you do not get your archer count high enough at that period (or worse, you don't even have archery tech) or you have not killed enough of their early units you will lose. Warriors become useless against those.

 

[Victoria]

I'm not sure if our definition of "safe" is the same. Warriors for the most part only buy you time before the inevitable happens. In the longer run 10 turns later or so deity AI (if you cannot get peace) will show up with more advanced units such as chariots and archers and if you do not get your archer count high enough at that period (or worse, you don't even have archery tech) or you have not killed enough of their early units you will lose. Warriors become useless against those.

And this is the crux, I want a good game, a fun and interesting game.
I like different openers and will even try a monument start now and then. If I feel something is coming my way then of course I will swap and defend and struggle and may lose, great! I have no pride, to me saying “I have never lost” means nothing.... so of course our meanings of safe are different but you will have noticed I try to look at the mechanics of it also, what is safe and I do get your archer thing, I just hate when I now see someone post cockily how they can one shot a tank with a machine gun. There was a reason they had a range of one.

 

[Bradypus]

I'm not sure if our definition of "safe" is the same. Warriors for the most part only buy you time before the inevitable happens. In the longer run 10 turns later or so deity AI (if you cannot get peace) will show up with more advanced units such as chariots and archers and if you do not get your archer count high enough at that period (or worse, you don't even have archery tech) or you have not killed enough of their early units you will lose. Warriors become useless against those.

Another possible advantage of Slingers is that archers require no strategic resource to upgrade, whereas Swordsmen require iron. If you build a bunch of Warriors but end up with no iron, you're in trouble. Also Slingers have a lower production cost.

 

[FlyinPhil]

I can't stand playing with someone else's religion even regardless of my victory type (I feel like I'm missing a large portion of the game if I do...) so I usually build a holy site in my capital as my first district, relatively early.

Ditto. I think it's a pride thing, too.

 

[NukeAJS]

I try to get that inspiration whenever possible. As you mentioned, political philosophy is very important. However, the most important reason imo is that it gives a governor title with the ability to get two more (one from building the government district and another once you get a real government by placing a building in it).

Those early governor tiles can be super important. Even if I don't get it boosted, I usually prioritize state workforce simply because those titles are very valuable no matter what play style you have.