Do you support a minimum hourly wage?

Aphex_Twin said:
More money for the same work is not greater skill.
If those who get more can have an incentive to earn even more then those who have less have less of an incentive to even look for work. I don't see where you create plus-value with this system.

Can you read? When did I ever say that more money for the same work is greater skill? The whole core of my argument is that a minimum wage allows the youth to stop working and go to school. This is more money for more skilled work.

How much unemployment aid? Enough for a full-time salary? Where do those money come from? Isn't it self-defeating to, at the same time pay the workers more and then take that away to pay those who had to be laid off - to pay the initial higher wages. Ponzi would be proud ;)

This argument isn't about unemployment benefits. Furthermore, as I demonstrated earlier, a minimum wage actually gives people the opportunity to start their own businesses and thus creates more jobs.

You promote paying some "less than peanuts" (i.e. no peanuts) so that others would get a little more peanuts. I don't call that justice. At who's expense?

It is not my fault that the owner of a business decides to be greedy and fires his workers instead of taking a smaller share of the profits. It is our fault, however, when we allow labourers to be exploited by corporations. Don't try and act all high and mighty as if you really give a rat's ass about the little guy. A minimum wage helps more people than it harms, simple as that. And, as I have demonstrated before, a minimum wage ultimately creates a healthy economy which raises the standard of living for everyone as jobs are created and real wages increase.
 
I certainly do support a minimum wage. It should be much higher in fact. I simply couldn't support myself if I only made minimum wage. I'd need two jobs, a roommate a lotto win or all of the above to survive.

As someone works for a greedy multinational corporation I know what companies will do if they're allowed. Minimum wage is all that keeps companies like that (and don't kid yourself, it's most of them) from cashing in on peoples desperation even more then they do.
 
Rik Meleet said:
Personally I'd like to have maximum wages as well, and that is the minimum wages times a number. Let's say 3 or 4 times minimum wages.

In many cases, the Minimum wage IS actually the Maximum wage. Entry level, part-time service workers, and college summer help often can look forward to that magic figure set by the government. Since the standard has been set by the government, employers do not need to compete for these workers but simply point to that number as the established worth of these workers' wages.

While the media and many politicians portray a crisis of families struggling to subsist on minimum wage incomes, the reality is that the vast majority of those who receive these wages do so because they Choose (for whatever reason) to be employed at less than full time and below their ability to earn.

King Alexander said:
If minimum wages stopped existing, you can be sure, ALL the other wages as well would drop significantly.

Yes they would, and so would prices for finished goods, commodities, and services, since the free market economy is largely impacted by labor costs. It is virtually impossible to single out labor rates and assume that if they are just raised a little.. the happy recipients will have better living conditions. That is a myth. The unpleasant reality is that if you raise wages, you Will raise the cost of living. And if you lower them, you will lower the cost of living.

Some may argue that greedy profiteers would use the lowered wages to rake in more profits by keeping prices level. That argument is incredibly silly when one considers that if noone is making any money, then noone is BUYING anything. Bill Gates would never have become rich if noone had been able to afford Windows.



-Elgalad
 
jwijn said:
Can you read? When did I ever say that more money for the same work is greater skill? The whole core of my argument is that a minimum wage allows the youth to stop working and go to school. This is more money for more skilled work.
Once again, and I hope I don't sound like a broken record: Money isn't value, goods are. Money buys things. Things don't conjure up by themselves, they need to be created. That requires work. That requires workers. But there are less workers. That means less goods. That means less overall value. That means more overall poverty... Was that an echo?

This argument isn't about unemployment benefits. Furthermore, as I demonstrated earlier, a minimum wage actually gives people the opportunity to start their own businesses and thus creates more jobs.
They have no money. How are they supposed to start a business?

It is not my fault that the owner of a business decides to be greedy and fires his workers instead of taking a smaller share of the profits. It is our fault, however, when we allow labourers to be exploited by corporations.
How is minimum wage going to prevent "exploitation"? But you do strike a point: the owner is the one that offers jobs. That is, he is trading the use of his property and management skills in exchange for the labour of men. He is offering an opportunity for trade. If the agreement is mutual then, by definition, is not coercion and therefore not exploitation.

Don't try and act all high and mighty as if you really give a rat's ass about the little guy. A minimum wage helps more people than it harms, simple as that. And, as I have demonstrated before, a minimum wage ultimately creates a healthy economy which raises the standard of living for everyone as jobs are created and real wages increase.
It appears we are not understanding ourselves. I will not repeat the above points again. You have not constructed any form of argument. I'll resume this conversation when you will have...
 
Aphex_Twin said:
Once again, and I hope I don't sound like a broken record: Money isn't value, goods are. Money buys things. Things don't conjure up by themselves, they need to be created. That requires work. That requires workers. But there are less workers. That means less goods. That means less overall value. That means more overall poverty... Was that an echo?

For christ's sake. I've told you already. A higher minimum wage allows people to go to school, get educated, and then invent a new product or run their own business. More goods are created because more people become skilled labourers. The problem with not having a minimum wage is that there is no middle class. The poor are largely uneducated, and as a result are unable to invent new products or open up new markets. Why don't you demonstrate how no minimum wage creates a middle class, and then I'll see that you can at least read.

They have no money. How are they supposed to start a business?

I gave you two examples before, why don't you make yourself useful and actually read them? They can either save up money (because now they have higher wages than before) or they can get a loan from the bank.

How is minimum wage going to prevent "exploitation"? But you do strike a point: the owner is the one that offers jobs. That is, he is trading the use of his property and management skills in exchange for the labour of men. He is offering an opportunity for trade. If the agreement is mutual then, by definition, is not coercion and therefore not exploitation.

Once again, idealistic rhetoric. Go to Indonesia, Samoa, or Guatemala. There is no minimum wage there, however, the only jobs offered are ones that pay for far less than their actual worth. The workers work out of necessity, because otherwise they would starve. Mutual contract my ass.

It appears we are not understanding ourselves. I will not repeat the above points again. You have not constructed any form of argument. I'll resume this conversation when you will have...

I haven't constructed any form of argument? Are you kidding me? I wrote this:

jwijn said:
WillJ said:
To those who remind us of the nineteenth century, it's certainly true that at that time things were pretty damn bad, but there was less capital back then; you can't expect the poor to have been making wages that even begin to compare with the wages the poor of today make, or to have been living in conditions that were any better than being one step above pure crap. Sure, it's quite possible that if a minimum wage were enacted in 1880, the workers of 1880 would have been significantly better, but just pointing out that the workers in 1880 as we know it weren't doing so well doesn't prove anything.

Okay, you want a better argument for minimum wage, here's my best shot:

First, let me begin by pointing out that there is a minimum wage (to my knowledge) in every single first world country. One could make the argument that the implementation of a minimum wage only occurred because a country attained enough capital to afford higher wages. To some extent, this is true. Nations must meet a certain threshold mark in order to implement many programmes. However, I contend that a minimum wage is, in fact, essential not only to a healthy society, but in fact to a healthy, first-world economy.

The fact that a minimum wage is essential to a healthy society is fairly obvious. Throughout history, a hungry people are a radical people. Lenin would not have risen to power had he not promised "Bread and Peace" nor would the French Revolution have reached such horrific levels had the economy remained stable. The quality of a nation is not how it rewards those citizens at the top, but rather how it takes care of those towards the bottom. The homelessness, despair, and death that is often associated with countries that implement no minimum wage and/or sweatshop labour cannot and, historically, has not gone hand in hand with just government and harmonious society.

The contention that a minimum wage is essential to a healthy economy, on the other hand, is far more difficult to prove, yet I shall endeavor to do my best. Let us first examine societies before the minimum wage. They were characterized by an enormous disparity of wealth, with a few families (i.e. the Rockefellers, Carnegies, and Pierreponts) controlling a large percentage of the wealth and an overwhelming majority working 12 hours a day for pennies. Literacy rates were extremely low, and education at a university was restricted to the sons and daughters of the so-called "Captains of Industry." In short, you were either rich or poor, with no middle ground and virtually zero social mobility. Although the minimum wage was passed in 1912, it was not really enforced until the end of the Great Depression. The results were astounding. Seemingly out of nowhere, a middle class (the Baby Boomer generation) grew as a result of higher wages and, consequentially, the ability to go to college. Americans were going off to college in droves, and as a result skilled labour became predominant where factory workers had once consisted of the majority. True, it is difficult to go to college on minimum wage, but the establishment of a 'benchmark' drove real wages up, effectively lifting everyone up another notch on the economic ladder. The same phenomenon was happening in Europe as well, albeit a bit slowed due to reconstruction post-WWII. It is this very same middle class that has not only represented the "American dream" and been portrayed as ideal in our popular culture, but also the very same class that has educated itself and, in the process, led to a remarkable boom in innovation and productivity.

I'm not sure why you'd need empirical evidence, since the logic is so simple and I'd be very impressed if you could refute it. In a free market, if, for example, a job is worth $4 an hour and only $4 an hour to an employer, he will pay $4 an hour or less to whoever does it. If, however, the government decrees a minimum wage of $5 an hour, the employer would obviously fire this employee (or maybe risk using the employee illegally, but I doubt that's too likely).

Note, though, that if in a free market, an employer is willing to pay $6 an hour for a job, but gets away with paying $4 an hour, and the government then declares a minimum wage of $5, then the employer will rise the wage to the required $5. And that's where the (possible) justification of the minimum wage is. So what I'd like to see is some evidence of how much of this theoretical stuff actually goes on.

I need empirical evidence because reality is often far more complicated than simple economic models. However, you want a refutation, and I shall give you a refutation.

Your model fails to take into account two factors, one of which being the educated class phenomenon as described previously. A successful new enterprise requires at least one of two elements - a new product and/or entrepreneurial risk. The former generally requires an education. Although some inventors like Thomas Edison were able to teach themselves the skills necessary to invent, the overwhelming majority received a high school, if not college, education. As I pointed out previously, with a minimum wage comes both the ability to take time off of work to go to school (public or private) as well as the ability to pay for higher education. If, for example, there is a 50% increase in the number of students enrolled in high school, then it is reasonable to assume that the chances of someone inventing a new product are 50% greater. The classic example of if you put a million monkeys in a room with typewriters, one will end up writing Shakespeare can easily be transposed to this scenario: if you put a million more people in a chemistry class, one of them will become a chemist.

The latter prerequisite, entrepreneurial risk, requires capital. Now, it is easy to declare that minimum wage would in fact decrease the amount of entrepreneurial risk. However, I aim to display that the opposite is true.

First, let us imagine that it takes $200 dollars to start a widget shop. Joe is now working for $5/day for Frank. Joe saves $1/day and, after 200 days, is able to open his widget shop. In this scenario, a minimum wage does not factor in because, either way, Frank or Joe would be able to start the shop. However, what many fail to realize is the man-hours it requires to run this widget shop. If it takes 12 hours/day to run the shop, then Frank could not possibly run both his current shop and the new one. Thus, Joe is able to use the new funds from the minimum wage to start and run his shop. With the added variable of time, minimum wage becomes necessary for entrepreneurial risk to be taken.

Second, let us examine a slightly different scenario. Joe is still working for Frank, but Joe wants to start a biblet shop, which requires only 6 hours/day but needs $400 to create. Joe cannot possibly start up this shop because it would take too long to save up the money so, like most people, he goes to the bank for a loan of $200. Frank has already taken a loan to pay for his own business, while Joe has a clean slate. In this scenario, the bank is more likely to loan to Joe than Frank because Joe has no existing debts. Thus, in this example, minimum wage is necessary so that more people have disposable income and, in the process, can take risks.

and all you gave me was this:

Aphex_Twin said:
@jwijn
Your argument is thus: "They implemented the minimum wage and shortly after living standards improved." For a theory to be scientific one must make a causal connection between the argument and the premise. Just because one thing happends after another it does not mean it is caused by it. What is your logic?
 
I submit that the minimum wage is simply a panacea cooked up by the government and organized labor in order to keep the masses happy (believing that they are being protected by the Nanny state) as well as to alleviate much of corporations' fiscal responsibilities (since they have less worries from competition for their entry level positions).

As such, it works splendidly, and it can be set at Any value and work just as well. As much as I personally might like to eliminate it, my usual optimism regarding human nature fails and I will have to accept that most folks need this crutch to deal with modern life.

:)


-Elgalad
 
jwijn said:
My argument is far more complex than that. Go back and give it a solid read-through. My logic is the following:

Minimum wage enforced = Families have more money
Yes, but prices go up.

Families have more money = Children don't have to work
Do you think that youths should have the same minimum wage that adults do? If so, then youths can't get jobs to look after themselves - who's going to employ an unskilled child when they can get an adult for the same price?
If not, then adults are out of work, because companies employ teenagers instead, as they're cheaper.

Children don't have to work = Children go to high school and college
But they should be encouraged to work (part time at least) to get work experience, work ethic, skills (yes - you can learn skills during work) and help to pay living costs etc whilst they're at work.
Youth are better educated = Get higher paying jobs as skilled workers
Higher paying jobs = higher standard of living
Agree.

Thus, a minimum wage ultimately contributes to a higher standard of living.
Maybe.

What you're ignoring is the macro-economic picture. Minimum wages can lead to unemployment and inflation.
 
I support it. It prevents huge companies from exploiting the workers, if the employers couldn't be bothered paying that wage then they can go screw themselves
 
I support minimum wage because looking back at history, being exploited by bosses does not seem too appetizing. I can trust a lot of people in my life, but not when it boils down to money.

I think min. wage has worked good so far, I see little reason to change. As for obvious govt. handouts, I am not in favor. But you still have motivation to do well at your work, even if you get paid min. wage, considering you can still be fired and all.
 
the goverment needs to regulate wages in order to controll the people under it. Without controll the gap between uperr and lower classes. If this contoll wsa lost then america would lose its powerful economy

though it dose make me people feel great.

I get minimum wage. If they could, my company would pay me less. :D
 
People should be paid enough to always be able to afford transportation for themselves and their families out of disaster zones.
 
Here's a wikipedia link to an article about a book that those of you who do not support the minimum wage might find verrrrry illuminating.
 
ainwood said:
jwijn said:
Minimum wage enforced = Families have more money
Yes, but prices go up.
With the minimum wage, poor families can afford basic essentials and are guaranteed a minimum standard of living. Price increases generally happen on products which people who live off a minimum wage are not interested in, not on basic essentials like food, electricity, central heating, etc. The fact that the price of those commodities has fallen significantly over the last 50 years should be evidence enough...

Lots of people seem to claim that people living of minimum wage would be better off without a minimum wage, citing some vague understanding of how economic theory affects the real world. That claim is false. The fact is, the minimum wage is not there to help rich people, or the economy, it's there to help poor people live their lives in to a basic level of human dignity.
 
Mise said:
Lots of people seem to claim that people living of minimum wage would be better off without a minimum wage, citing some vague understanding of how economic theory affects the real world. That claim is false.
So you have a deep in-depth knowledge of economics to back this up?

Re your claim that the prices only go up for things that poor people don't want or use - how does this selective inflation work?
 
Well, the British economy has done alot better since Labour introduced the minimum wage. See when prices go up the minimum wage goes up as well.
 
There has to be either minimum wage laws or powerful unions in order to safeguard employees. If there's a significant amount of unemployment, individuals in low-end jobs withholding their labour until they obtained a living wage simply would not be an appropriate bargaining strategy where people still have to put food on the table and pay the rent. Collective bargaining through a powerful union would offer the protection of safety in numbers, but in my opinion there could be too much power in the hands of union officials.

Minimum wages offer a safety net and a starting point for negotiation.
 
newfangle said:
I do not support minimum wage.

Most people that are on min wage aren't worth it.

Get off your high horse. Who are you to judge how hard working people make money?
 
newfangle said:
Because I've worked such jobs and I can tell you first hand that my collegues were complete imbeciles.

Were these complete imbeciles ones who had families to support? You can't categorize everyone who has a minimum wage job into a single demographic.
 
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