Do you support a minimum hourly wage?

The problem is that people don't have the balls to gang up on businesses. For the most part, if businesses decided to pay less, the people would merrily bend over and take it. I suppose that a minimum wage is likely best for the country, but for the resourceful and principaled individual, it is not.
 
Godwynn said:
The employer has every right to pocket the profits. He is the one that took the risk of starting his own business. Why should he hand out what he has rightfully earned to someone else?

Umm, perhaps because that someone else is the one who actually helped make the product. I'm not saying we should give equal wages, but paying some $2 an hour who gives you $100 in profit is simply malicious.

Openning a sweatshop in Guatemala does sound good. It'll give them jobs they didn't have before.

How kind of you, putting 8-year olds into an unventilated room to sow for 12 hours a day!

However, in many cases, they DID have those jobs before. Take, for example, the Yucatan in Mexico. Before NAFTA, there was a thriving local sewing and textile industry, but after NAFTA corporations like Gap came in, dumped their wares for well below-market prices, and destroyed the competition. Now the people have seen a visible decrease in their wages and with it an increase in poverty and prostitution.
 
I myself am not sure about whether or not a minimum wage is justified, but I do know that I don't like any argument in support of it that has been brought up in this thread or in previous ones that I remember. (And the arguments against it haven't been too convincing either IMO. But let's stick with one thing at a time. ;))

To those who remind us of the nineteenth century, it's certainly true that at that time things were pretty damn bad, but there was less capital back then; you can't expect the poor to have been making wages that even begin to compare with the wages the poor of today make, or to have been living in conditions that were any better than being one step above pure crap. Sure, it's quite possible that if a minimum wage were enacted in 1880, the workers of 1880 would have been significantly better, but just pointing out that the workers in 1880 as we know it weren't doing so well doesn't prove anything.

And even before the minimum wage, wages continuously rose as the economy grew, and as far as I know, the only reason wages rose significantly after the minimum wage is because the economy continued to grow, due to improvements in technology and whatnot.
jwijn said:
Proof? Show me a country without a minimum wage that has less unemployment.
I'm not sure why you'd need empirical evidence, since the logic is so simple and I'd be very impressed if you could refute it. In a free market, if, for example, a job is worth $4 an hour and only $4 an hour to an employer, he will pay $4 an hour or less to whoever does it. If, however, the government decrees a minimum wage of $5 an hour, the employer would obviously fire this employee (or maybe risk using the employee illegally, but I doubt that's too likely).

Note, though, that if in a free market, an employer is willing to pay $6 an hour for a job, but gets away with paying $4 an hour, and the government then declares a minimum wage of $5, then the employer will rise the wage to the required $5. And that's where the (possible) justification of the minimum wage is. So what I'd like to see is some evidence of how much of this theoretical stuff actually goes on.
 
Its strange a price floor (which a minimum wage is) should cause a surplus of suply (of labour) which would mean more people want a job than can have a job. But in New Zealand we have a minimum wage and the lowest unemployment in the OECD. I guess that must mean that the price floor is below the equilbrium, and has no effect.
 
jwijn said:
Proof? Show me a country without a minimum wage that has less unemployment.
That is not a valid comparison; you have to construct a conterfactual scenario for this same country.
I imagine that this claim has been extensively studied empirically, but I don't know the studies on top of my mind and I am too lazy to look them up so the empirical proof one way or the other needs to wait until somebody looks them up.
But we know the claim is valid from first principles: there are people in the economy that are currently unemployed; some of these must be willing to work for less than the minimum wage, some employers would find it profitable to employ these people at a wage lower than the minimum wage but non-profitable to employ them at the minimum wage. End of proof.
 
Nobody said:
Its strange a price floor (which a minimum wage is) should cause a surplus of suply (of labour) which would mean more people want a job than can have a job. But in New Zealand we have a minimum wage and the lowest unemployment in the OECD. I guess that must mean that the price floor is below the equilbrium, and has no effect.
Not to mention Finland, Norway, and Sweden.
 
I don't know how people can survive on minimum wage while paying their car insurance and other insurances, not to mention bills and necessities. I'm personally all for a 'living' wage in which a person can live a somewhat comfortable life or a wage that varies according to what level of stress a job has. Like a food worker may get $8-9 whereass a call support agent may get something over $10.
 
jwijn said:
Umm, perhaps because that someone else is the one who actually helped make the product. I'm not saying we should give equal wages, but paying some $2 an hour who gives you $100 in profit is simply malicious.

What is it only give .10 in profit? Would it be justified to abolish the minimum wage then?


jwijn said:
How kind of you, putting 8-year olds into an unventilated room to sow for 12 hours a day!

Where did I ever say I would hire 8 year olds and put them in an unventilated room?
 
Let's just raise the minimum wage to $100 an hour... :rolleyes:
 
DBear said:
Let's just raise the minimum wage to $100 an hour... :rolleyes:

No joke, and make corporations pay for our health care, gas bills, dental bills, food, water, utilities...

Why stop at $100?! Make it $5,151 so everyone can be rich!
 
WillJ said:
To those who remind us of the nineteenth century, it's certainly true that at that time things were pretty damn bad, but there was less capital back then; you can't expect the poor to have been making wages that even begin to compare with the wages the poor of today make, or to have been living in conditions that were any better than being one step above pure crap. Sure, it's quite possible that if a minimum wage were enacted in 1880, the workers of 1880 would have been significantly better, but just pointing out that the workers in 1880 as we know it weren't doing so well doesn't prove anything.

Okay, you want a better argument for minimum wage, here's my best shot:

First, let me begin by pointing out that there is a minimum wage (to my knowledge) in every single first world country. One could make the argument that the implementation of a minimum wage only occurred because a country attained enough capital to afford higher wages. To some extent, this is true. Nations must meet a certain threshold mark in order to implement many programmes. However, I contend that a minimum wage is, in fact, essential not only to a healthy society, but in fact to a healthy, first-world economy.

The fact that a minimum wage is essential to a healthy society is fairly obvious. Throughout history, a hungry people are a radical people. Lenin would not have risen to power had he not promised "Bread and Peace" nor would the French Revolution have reached such horrific levels had the economy remained stable. The quality of a nation is not how it rewards those citizens at the top, but rather how it takes care of those towards the bottom. The homelessness, despair, and death that is often associated with countries that implement no minimum wage and/or sweatshop labour cannot and, historically, has not gone hand in hand with just government and harmonious society.

The contention that a minimum wage is essential to a healthy economy, on the other hand, is far more difficult to prove, yet I shall endeavor to do my best. Let us first examine societies before the minimum wage. They were characterized by an enormous disparity of wealth, with a few families (i.e. the Rockefellers, Carnegies, and Pierreponts) controlling a large percentage of the wealth and an overwhelming majority working 12 hours a day for pennies. Literacy rates were extremely low, and education at a university was restricted to the sons and daughters of the so-called "Captains of Industry." In short, you were either rich or poor, with no middle ground and virtually zero social mobility. Although the minimum wage was passed in 1912, it was not really enforced until the end of the Great Depression. The results were astounding. Seemingly out of nowhere, a middle class (the Baby Boomer generation) grew as a result of higher wages and, consequentially, the ability to go to college. Americans were going off to college in droves, and as a result skilled labour became predominant where factory workers had once consisted of the majority. True, it is difficult to go to college on minimum wage, but the establishment of a 'benchmark' drove real wages up, effectively lifting everyone up another notch on the economic ladder. The same phenomenon was happening in Europe as well, albeit a bit slowed due to reconstruction post-WWII. It is this very same middle class that has not only represented the "American dream" and been portrayed as ideal in our popular culture, but also the very same class that has educated itself and, in the process, led to a remarkable boom in innovation and productivity.

I'm not sure why you'd need empirical evidence, since the logic is so simple and I'd be very impressed if you could refute it. In a free market, if, for example, a job is worth $4 an hour and only $4 an hour to an employer, he will pay $4 an hour or less to whoever does it. If, however, the government decrees a minimum wage of $5 an hour, the employer would obviously fire this employee (or maybe risk using the employee illegally, but I doubt that's too likely).

Note, though, that if in a free market, an employer is willing to pay $6 an hour for a job, but gets away with paying $4 an hour, and the government then declares a minimum wage of $5, then the employer will rise the wage to the required $5. And that's where the (possible) justification of the minimum wage is. So what I'd like to see is some evidence of how much of this theoretical stuff actually goes on.

I need empirical evidence because reality is often far more complicated than simple economic models. However, you want a refutation, and I shall give you a refutation.

Your model fails to take into account two factors, one of which being the educated class phenomenon as described previously. A successful new enterprise requires at least one of two elements - a new product and/or entrepreneurial risk. The former generally requires an education. Although some inventors like Thomas Edison were able to teach themselves the skills necessary to invent, the overwhelming majority received a high school, if not college, education. As I pointed out previously, with a minimum wage comes both the ability to take time off of work to go to school (public or private) as well as the ability to pay for higher education. If, for example, there is a 50% increase in the number of students enrolled in high school, then it is reasonable to assume that the chances of someone inventing a new product are 50% greater. The classic example of if you put a million monkeys in a room with typewriters, one will end up writing Shakespeare can easily be transposed to this scenario: if you put a million more people in a chemistry class, one of them will become a chemist.

The latter prerequisite, entrepreneurial risk, requires capital. Now, it is easy to declare that minimum wage would in fact decrease the amount of entrepreneurial risk. However, I aim to display that the opposite is true.

First, let us imagine that it takes $200 dollars to start a widget shop. Joe is now working for $5/day for Frank. Joe saves $1/day and, after 200 days, is able to open his widget shop. In this scenario, a minimum wage does not factor in because, either way, Frank or Joe would be able to start the shop. However, what many fail to realize is the man-hours it requires to run this widget shop. If it takes 12 hours/day to run the shop, then Frank could not possibly run both his current shop and the new one. Thus, Joe is able to use the new funds from the minimum wage to start and run his shop. With the added variable of time, minimum wage becomes necessary for entrepreneurial risk to be taken.

Second, let us examine a slightly different scenario. Joe is still working for Frank, but Joe wants to start a biblet shop, which requires only 6 hours/day but needs $400 to create. Joe cannot possibly start up this shop because it would take too long to save up the money so, like most people, he goes to the bank for a loan of $200. Frank has already taken a loan to pay for his own business, while Joe has a clean slate. In this scenario, the bank is more likely to loan to Joe than Frank because Joe has no existing debts. Thus, in this example, minimum wage is necessary so that more people have disposable income and, in the process, can take risks.
 
Minimum wages is essential, but in order for it to function you need other things as well. Unemployment-compensation for instance.

Personally I'd like to have maximum wages as well, and that is the minimum wages times a number. Let's say 3 or 4 times minimum wages.
 
No minimum wage. Now skilled labour is prevalent, companies will have to pay to keep their employees. Unskilled labour is drawing from a limited worker pool, so I don't think it would cause worker exploitation
 
I support a minimum wage and, if kept in check in the way Ponthius outlined early on, there is nothing wrong with it economically. In fact, as jwijn pointed out, a minimum wage has assisted the government in all manner of health care, crime, mobility issues and just for generally more humane social equality. It isn't just about screwing the profits of big business.

In fact I wonder - how many people who voted "no" have ever worked on a minimum wage and tried to have any kind of life whilst doing so?

BTW - Those people looting and shooting and stealing and all else in New Orleans - I bet they'd vote for a minimum wage or just a job which allowed them to 'save for a rainy day'.
 
Rik Meleet said:
Personally I'd like to have maximum wages as well, and that is the minimum wages times a number. Let's say 3 or 4 times minimum wages.
What the heck is the point of that? Maximmum wage? There's an incentive not to work hard.

Rambuchan said:
In fact I wonder - how many people who voted "no" have ever worked on a minimum wage and tried to have any kind of life whilst doing so?
I voted no and I worked a minimum wage job for almost a year.

If someone started a poll about government subsides I would vote no for that too even though I recieve them.

I believe in as little government as possible but as long as these programs exist I will happily take advantage of them.
 
Pontiuth Pilate said:
Such a situation does not "balance itself out," it goes into a death spiral.
you say 'death spiral' like its a bad thing :)

Narz said:
I voted no and I worked a minimum wage job for almost a year.

If someone started a poll about government subsides I would vote no for that too even though I recieve them.
at this point, i should remind everyone that narz is, in fact, quite mad.
 
Milan's Warrior said:
It definitely contributes to unemployment and that's bad, but I think it helps a lot of people who would be paid even less
Some are better off, but at the expense of others. I thought Socialism had a heart :p

Besides, fewer people working overall means less productivity and some inflation (less goods covered by the same money).

@WillJ
While their wages were dreadfully low (for our standards) they allowed a better than average standard of living (you could be fed, clothed, housed, entertained and still have something left over). The question is not wether or not "workers were being exploited", but if indeed factory workers were better off than before. Life in pre-industrial Europe was far from idillic.

@jwijn
Your argument is thus: "They implemented the minimum wage and shortly after living standards improved." For a theory to be scientific one must make a causal connection between the argument and the premise. Just because one thing happends after another it does not mean it is caused by it. What is your logic?
 
John HSOG said:
I do not support a minimum wage. Private businesses should be free to pay whatever they wish. Workers have the right to not work there. In the end, if businesses do not pay their workers enough, they won't be able to afford the products of industry. It will balance itself out.

What if the workers unite and refuse to work untill a minimun wage is implemented?
 
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