Do you think Civ V is doomed?

That's a hell of a signature to see on that post.

Class action lawsuit?

((Disclaimer: Much of our economy and society is built around an American habit and tendency to sue at first opportunity. I do not believe that this is a productive manner to conduct either, and do not endorse unnecesarry litigation. It is a burden on the courts and a life path that will provide only anxiety, and none of the imagined comfort. In the case of the video game industry an attempt to bankrupt a developer is never a good strategy to make them reform their steps and fix the obvious problems in the latest iteration of the franchise))
 
That's a hell of a signature to see on that post.

Class action lawsuit?

((Disclaimer: Much of our economy and society is built around an American habit and tendency to sue at first opportunity. I do not believe that this is a productive manner to conduct either, and do not endorse unnecesarry litigation. It is a burden on the courts and a life path that will provide only anxiety, and none of the imagined comfort. In the case of the video game industry an attempt to bankrupt a developer is never a good strategy to make them reform their steps and fix the obvious problems in the latest iteration of the franchise))

That reminds me of this thread about JoWood declaring bankruptcy over at Matrix Games forums.

In particular, Shark7's response seems apt.

ORIGINAL: Shark7


ORIGINAL: Lützow

JoWood is one of the most ruthless publishers in terms of releasing unfinished software and disregarding their customer base. Here in Germany nobody will shed a tear if they actually fold.

You treat your customers badly and put out unfinished products...well don't be surprised when you go bankrupt.
 
Going bankrupt by selling shoddy products is one thing, and an axe that might well fall on Fireaxis, I don't care.

Being cannibalized in court by angry fans is something altogether different and will take much longer than either party will want and will lead to suboptimal outcomes. Unless you can force them to sell the franchise to a worthwhile developer, an unlikely outcome, you will not be satisfied with the results and in any event your attorney will bill you to death long before you are done appealing the case.
 
JoWood is a special case, though. Their approach to Soldner was just embarassing. Not that Soldner was worth a damn anyway, even after it was fixed up. I got a copy of it for free, played it, and determined it wasn't even worth the hard-drive space. JoWood apparently published Soldner before it even got to the crappy state that I played it in.

That's a far cry from Firaxis/2K's approach here. The game may not be my cup of tea, but it's FUNCTIONAL at least. Soldner, apparently, wasn't. Moreover, Civ 5 may have bits that I think are stupid and poorly designed, but Soldner...that's in a whole other class of suckitude.
 
Cannibalism is when one human eats another though, right? You sure that applies here?
 
Cannibalism is when one human eats another though, right? You sure that applies here?

Killing a developer for short term monetary gain through lawsuits and denying them even an initial chance to amend their franchise seems to me to fit, metaphorically of course, similar to murdering another human being for food, at least in the regard that humans are frequently more useful alive.
 
I don't think Civ V is doomed. It's fun even in its present shape, and will become even better. Besides, how can it fail when it feaures such extremely competent people as Elizabeth, also known as Virginia and Gloriana?
 
Whose trying to kill a game developer? I would love to see 2K change, but have no desire whatsoever to "kill" them. Did you have the impression that some of us would like to see 2K go out of business?

I believe that more game developers, not fewer, is the best thing for our hobby. I just don't think we should tolerate sub-standard development and business practices. Being active to promote change equates with trying to "kill" a developer only insofar as they demonstrate an unwillingness to listen to and respond to their consumers.
 
Exactly. A publisher like 2K is too big to be "killed" by people boycotting a franchise like Civ (which wouldn't be a 100% boycott anyway, since plenty of people will still buy it).

However, your purchase is basically the ONLY way to INFLUENCE a developer. It's very very basic, really. A developer is a very simple entity that operates on Skinnerian psychological principles. If you reward it, it will repeat the behavior that preceded the reward. If you withhold a reward, it will change its behavior (maybe). So, buying a game and then saying "Well, this is good, but I'd like it if you did XYZ" is irrelevant. You MIGHT get listened to if a huge portion of the purchasers all say the same thing, but if you don't, then the developer won't know what to do, and it still may not change the thing that YOU wanted changed. Alternatively, it may simply ignore what folks say. Why not, after all? You already rewarded its behavior with your cash.

So, to change the developer's behavior (for better or worse), you have to withhold that reward as if you're dealing with a dog or somesuch. "NO. BAD developer!!" :)

Now, with game development, maybe they'll misinterpret what you were complaining about (since it's a pretty complex thing to develop a game, and fan response is complex too). They might say "Ah, you didn't like [that we released a buggy/unfinished game]" or "Ah, you didn't like [city-states]" or "Ah, you didn't like [1UPT]" or whatever. You really won't know. But you at least stand more of a chance of influencing them by NOT buying a game than by buying a game and saying "Now change XYZ about it."
 
"NO. BAD developer!!" :)

This really made me smile :) thing is though, as the only guys that have the talent to program and make gaming dreams a reality (or not, as more often seems to be the case) i'm not so sure my opinion as a customer in a sea of customers matters that much, i've expressed my displeasure with Civ 5 on these forums before but i don't feel it will make much difference, besides with steam there are no returns, the only way you can show you are unhappy once you've tried your luck and bought the game is to un-install.

Edit* now i think about it, i don't know why Steam don't have a "like/dislike" button next to every game you bought, would give everyone a fair idea of how the customers feel about their purchases.
 
This really made me smile :) thing is though, as the only guys that have the talent to program and make gaming dreams a reality (or not, as more often seems to be the case) i'm not so sure my opinion as a customer in a sea of customers matters that much, i've expressed my displeasure with Civ 5 on these forums before but i don't feel it will make much difference, besides with steam there are no returns, the only way you can show you are unhappy once you've tried your luck and bought the game is to un-install.

Well, that's basically my point. The developers might lurk in forums such as these, and try to glean some overall sense of "What didn't folks like?" but aside from "big name" players like Sulla (who, I would guess, is a big name because he's well known here, well spoken, and also worked as part of Civ 4's development), the statements of individual players will probably be overlooked, unless you just happen to get lucky.

I think the problem tends to be that, unless you're a "big name" or something along those lines, you're "damned if you do, and damned if you don't" when it comes to forum posts.

- If your post is too short, it won't include any real detail about your complaint. It might be bite-sized enough for them to take back to the team as a blurb, but it won't really get into the nuances of the problems. These types of posts are better for "preference" issues, like, "I hate the new narrator's voice. Bring back Nimoy!" or "Man, the way roads look is AWFUL!" That kind of stuff is easily digested, easily quoted back to a development team, and easily addressed....but it doesn't really get at core design issues. It's all surface level stuff. the core design issues can't be addressed in a blurb of a post.

- If your post is too long...well hey, "TLDR." I write LONG posts. My short posts are as long as posts by other people where they apologize for the length of their post! :) I do not expect a developer to read what I write, no matter how coherent a post it may be. They simply won't devote the time to it. I'm not a "big name," I don't play a high difficulty levels, I don't make mods for the community, I'm not a programmer. I'm just a long-winded guy posting on a message board. I'm cool with that, but I don't expect anything to come from it, outside of interesting discussions here, and maybe once in a while a bit of catharsis. What I definitely do NOT expect is for developers to take my posts and bring them back to the dev team to say "See what this guy said? This is important stuff. We should take it into account." While I'm at it, I might as well ask for a pony, world peace, and an evening with Christina Hendricks for Christmas next year, for all the good it'll do.


This is why the ONLY thing they'll listen to -- and they'll only listen to it en masse, for that matter -- is purchases. So, the only thing you as an individual can do to REALLY affect change is speak with your wallet and hope that others do too.

Edit* now i think about it, i don't know why Steam don't have a "like/dislike" button next to every game you bought, would give everyone a fair idea of how the customers feel about their purchases.

Now THAT is a good idea. I'd thought that Steam let you do that already, since games have "ratings" next to them, but apparently the game ratings are more of a "Metacritic" style rating -- an aggregate of various professional reviews, rather than player opinions. Steam could probably report to developers the average number of hours that players play the game, and perhaps whether they've kept the game installed or uninstalled it, but aside from that, I doubt there's any data that Steam could provide a developer about the reception of their game. It's again just a question of "how many sales?"
 
Presumably the tone and texture of gamer forums have a long-term impact on sales too.
 
Now THAT is a good idea. I'd thought that Steam let you do that already, since games have "ratings" next to them, but apparently the game ratings are more of a "Metacritic" style rating -- an aggregate of various professional reviews, rather than player opinions. Steam could probably report to developers the average number of hours that players play the game, and perhaps whether they've kept the game installed or uninstalled it, but aside from that, I doubt there's any data that Steam could provide a developer about the reception of their game. It's again just a question of "how many sales?"

I'm afraid i got it wrong, there is indeed a system for writing about how you feel about a game, only people in your friends list can see it though i think.
 
I'm afraid i got it wrong, there is indeed a system for writing about how you feel about a game, only people in your friends list can see it though i think.

The thing you quoted about how many hours people play a game isn't all of it though. It's how many hours and over what period of time. What percentage of the player base is playing the game heavily X weeks after puchasing it for all sorts of values of X?

How many hours as the player played since unlocking an achievement related to beating the game?

What percentage of acheivements are players unlocking?

What percentage of players are finishing a game?

Etc.

There is lots of good info there if anyone is halfway clever in collecting and presenting it.
 
Look, it's not like I'm buying the DLC. I can't do anything about having been tricked by the shiney advertisements on launch day, it's not like I play video games enough to have developed a system for checking quality, I just trusted the franchise and bought the game, like Clement said you can't return it now.

But I'm sure as hell not paying for no DLC because they think they deserve five bucks for adding another nationality of broken AI that should have at least come with the original game. That's all I've got.
 
That's perfectly fair.

In the future, if you're concerned about a given game (and really, these days, you ought to be concerned about almost all games -- very few publishers reliably put out perfectly polished PC games right from the get-go), my advice is this:

- First and most importantly: WAIT. Take a breath and realize taht the game will not suddenly evaporate if you don't have it on launch day. Don't pre-order. Even if they promise shiny pre-order giveaways (IE: Get the Babylonians free!!).

- Second, go ahead and read the reviews, but read between the lines. Pay attention to the description of the game mechanics, pay attention to the stuff the reviews say they didn't like. Pay attention to what the reviews DO talk about and especially what they DON'T talk about. (by the way, when you start doing this, you notice that a lot of reviews spend a LOT of time talking about the "pretties." Graphics, sound, etc. Stuff that, while nice, doesn't really touch on gameplay.)

- Third, KEEP WAITING. Go to the forums of a game and watch them for a bit. Initial release reaction will almost always be overwhelmingly positive unless the game is literally not functional (IE: lots of crashes, obvious bugs). Fallout New Vegas is a good example -- upon release, lots of discussion of its bugs. That alone should make you shy away. Most of the time, though, you won't get that. So keep waiting.

- After somewhere between 2 and 6 months, the REAL reviews will start coming out. People will no longer be responding to gut reactions (unless they just got the game), and you'll start seeing the complaints pop up. Some complaints will be goofy ones that are easily dismissed. (IE: "OMG!! Why do they make the Russians speak Russian? Why can't they just speak English with a Russian accent? So annoying.") Some will be about legitimate issues, but will be poorly described. (IE: "Man, 1UPT is so annoying. I hate having to click so much to move units. Lame.") But some will be longer, more thought-out positions that go into detail about what's wrong with the game, according to that reviewer. (IE: Sulla's articles, other longer posts here.)

- From the longer, more in-depth reviews AFTER the honeymoon period has ended, you'll start to get a much better picture of the game as a whole. Now, maybe after doing that, you'll decide "Nope. Still sounds good to me!" and buy it. Then you'll make your own decision. But at least you won't be falling for immediate post-release "Ooooooh.....sooooo shiny" reactions, and you won't be buying into the rather shallow reviews that most game review sites give about games like this. Games like Civ take time to really evaluate, especially if you have only passing familiarity with the previous entries in the genre. Games like, say, Call of Duty are a lot easier to review because they're basically just reskins of the last game with a new plot, and maybe some new multiplayer mechanics. Even then, the whole "Soo shiny" thing still happens, but it wears off faster. Anyway, the whole idea here is to be an INFORMED consumer. You may very well end up loving the game to itty bitty bits. You may still end up hating it even though you thought that, despite the bad stuff you saw, it wouldn't bother you. Those are the risks we always take. But at least you'll be taking that risk more informed.


-- Added bonus: the game will probably be cheaper or available used or as part of a sale by the time you finally get around to buying it.
 
You can't say Firaxis is not to blame and that they got rushed by their publisher. The publisher probably told them the needed dates, it's just that they were incapable of finishing the game on time.

Edit* now i think about it, i don't know why Steam don't have a "like/dislike" button next to every game you bought, would give everyone a fair idea of how the customers feel about their purchases.


Because then, game sales would drop, maybe? Imagine how many people would have bought Civ5 if they say a huge number of "dislikes". Not as many. They'll never put that into Steam.
 
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